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The Last Jedi - General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DarthSnow, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    The BIGGEST retcon was the finale's lame attempt to make Rey "A Skywalker" after all. The Skywalker Saga should have been about the Luke (OT), his father (PT), and his daughter (ST.) When that didn't happen, fans were left wondering what the hell the ST films were all about.
     
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  2. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I still wouldn't call that a retcon, if only because it fits with the themes and Rey isn't suddenly a blood relative of the Skywalkers. The ending wasn't saying "Rey has ALWAYS been a Skywalker," which is what a retcon - short for retroactive continuity - would have done. One of the ST's themes as I and I think others see it is about the family you choose. Rey at the end of TROS is saying "I choose not to be a Palpatine, but a Skywalker." Luke and Leia's ghosts seemingly approve of that decision. Again, this doesn't have to work for you - heck, it doesn't work for me - but it's consistent with the themes. It's a flawed finale point for various reasons to me, but it's far from a retcon.

    Who the ST films were about and what they were about depends on how you interpreted the events, as does the success of the movies' themes. You saw it about a familial legacy from Anakin to Luke to Rey, and when that didn't happen, the films failed. I saw it about legacy and how a new generation has the power to break the chains of the old alongside a synthesis of the previous two trilogies. When that didn't happen, the trilogy failed as a whole to me. Others saw it as a cyclical story where everything repeats. To them, the ending was brilliant and perfect.

    I think that a major part of those who were upset about that happening were upset because their idea of the ST didn't happen, or because what they predicted didn't come true. It's a pride issue, not a story one. It's not an attack, I've been in those shoes and felt the same way about some things. Heck, I still feel that way about certain things. Usually, the media in question has proven me wrong, but not always... Still, I try to ask myself why I'm upset about things not going the way I predicted. Is it pride? Is it because I had a false idea of what the story should have been in my head? Or is it because I see the story for what it was doing or trying to do, and upset that it couldn't do it better? Because these are three different motivations, and oftentimes they can get mixed up IMO.
     
    #222 Use the Falchion, Feb 17, 2022
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    I have a lot of issues with the final film, but Rey calling herself a Skywalker isn't one of them. I love that Rey calls herself that and it makes sense. As far as Luke having a daughter I do think "Luke not having children" or "Rey not being a Solo/Skywalker by blood" was the source of disappointment for some fans. I base that just in how it was debated here before TLJ was released and the reaction by people who were invested in that outcome. Luke was a Jedi so him having a lost child or a child of any kind would have been a serious departure from Lucas' lore. As unhappy as he was that Disney ditched a lot of what he wanted in the ST, Lucasfilm is still following his lore and using many of his ideas. Rey was a George idea. Luke in exile was a George idea. Luke not getting married as a George idea.
     
    #223 DailyPlunge, Feb 17, 2022
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  4. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    Fans were invested in that outcome because we were teased with that revelation. How else do you describe Rey offering the Luke's lightsaber back to him at the end of TFA?

    Who said anything about Luke getting married? There's all kinds of ways that Luke could have had a love child without his knowledge. Heck, leaving the mother's identify a secret could have led to a fascinating Rey origin story.

    Regarding "George's ideas," George also originally had ROTJ mapped out as a tragic story according to his co-producer for the first two SW films, Gary Kurtz. But by that time, George understood he'd created a franchise and decided to 'rework' the final film of the OT by having the good guys save the day with none of our heroes killed. My bet is that George would not have approved what Rian Johnson did in TLJ like his successor, Kathleen Kennedy, did.
     
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  5. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Literally, Rey is offering Luke his old Jedi weapon to bring him back into the fight. There is absolutely nothing in that scene to suggest Rey is Luke's daughter.
     
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Rey is handing back the old lightsaber. What's the tease? I don't understand the question.
    Sure, they could have told another lost Skywalker child story. A Luke lovechild is kind of a gross idea to me. I'd rather not rehash the Rey theories again. We beat that to death before TLJ.
    Not sure what ROTJ choices have to do with George coming up with Rey and Luke in exile. We can only speculate about George's thoughts. He's been quiet since that Rose interview. However, his people at Lucasfilm seem to have loved TLJ the most of the ST films.
     
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  7. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    Come on, Angelman, you know legions of SW fans felt otherwise. The notion that fans had absolutely no reason to believe Rey was Luke's daughter strains credulity. It's been awhile since that film, so let's review...
    • The final three episodes of the nine-part Skywalker Saga stars a new actress who plays a mysterious teenage girl abandoned (hidden?) since she was a child on the desert planet of Jakku where she scavenges to survive. Strangely, our hero is only known by her first name, "Rey." Hmmmm...I wonder how this girl is connected to the Skywalkers? Once the audience learns she is insanely strong with The Force, what do you think the audience's natural conclusion is?
    • Early in the film, we see the young girl put on an old Resistance fighter pilot helmet. (The filmmakers wanted the audience to know that she's one of the 'good guys.')
    • Finn tells Rey BB-8 is carrying a map that leads to...Luke Skywalker! With a look of awe and astonishment, Rey says, "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth." (The audience smiles knowingly.)
    • The film makes a point of showing the audience that REY IS DRAWN TO LUKE'S OLD LIGHTSABER in the basement of Maz's castle. As her hand makes contact with it, she sees multiple visions, including one of Luke and R2D2 and one of herself being abandoned on Jakku as a small girl. And when Rey questions having taken the lightsaber, Maz says -- and I quote -- "That lightsaber was Luke's and his father's before him -- and now, it's belongs to YOU!" Hmmm....how was the audience supposed to interpret this whole Maz and the lightsaber segment?
    • Lastly, the audience is led to believe there is a special connection between Kylo and Rey. How was the audience supposed to interpret that?
    So after experiencing all of these things in TFA, we're to assume there's no reason to believe Rey had any connection with Luke when she takes his old lightsaber back to him?

    The vast majority of SW fans waited with unsupressed anticipation for Luke to meet the daughter he never knew he had for the first time. Instead we got Old Man Luke throwing the saber away as if it were a useless piece of junk. Talk about a serious slap in the face to SW fans!
     
    #227 Darth Derringer, Feb 17, 2022
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  8. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    I have never disputed that a section (a distinct minority by any reliable metric, but that's beyond the point here) of fans wanted Rey to be Luke's daughter. You, however, suggested that Rey handing Luke the lightsaber at the end of TFA "teased" that Rey was his daughter. I argue that there is nothing in that scene that suggest anything of the kind.

    I quote: "Fans were invested in that outcome [Rey being Luke's daughter*] because we were teased with that revelation. How else do you describe Rey offering the Luke's lightsaber back to him at the end of TFA?"
    *Alternatively, the argument in your post was that Rey is teased as a Solo by blood, but that makes no sense in regards to her handing Luke the lightsaber, so I chose to disregard that here.

    Again, nothing about Rey offering Luke the Jedi weapon teases that he is Rey's father.
     
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  9. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    How do you explain away Rey being drawn to Luke's old lightsaber in the basement of Maz's castle and Maz's comment to her that it belongs to her now -- like Luke and Anakin before her?
     
  10. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    For the record, a large portion of the fanbase argued that she was a Palpatine, while another segment (which included me) suggested she might be a Kenobi. Other's put forth different theories, which, for the sake of brevity I shan't list, but in the end she turned out to be a Palpatine. There was nothing set-in-stone to indicate that she had to be a Skywalker, or even Luke's child. That you realy wanted this to be true and was disappointed when your head-canon didn't pan out is, I guess, fair enough, but your's was never the only logical/suggested/"teased"/or indeed possible solution to the riddle of Rey.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 17, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 17, 2022 ---
    We literally don't know. Why did Maz find it before her? Was Maz a Skywalker, too? It called to her because that's what moved the plot. Perhaps it was Luke's connection to Palpatine? (*shrug*) Perhaps it was the Force willing it so? We have no idea*

    *That is, unless some book or something, that I haven't read, explains this. In which case I defer to the canon.

    Furthermore, you attack my reasoning by ignoring my reasoning and posting another question. I could just as well ask, "how do you explain that Rey being drawn to Luke's lightsaber proves that she is his daughter". It does not.
     
    #230 Angelman, Feb 17, 2022
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  11. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    To be fair after being a casual fan for many years after the prequels I shared this sentiment until I started going back into the lore. The reason I thought that was because it was something I wanted rather than something that actually made sense logically. Those expectations were something I was brining into the story because I grew up watching a story about Luke and his father. Also, because of the Mara Jade stories. The only way Rey was going to be related to Luke was if she was Leia's daughter and it was pretty clear that wasn't happening after TFA.
     
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  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    To be fair, Anakin and Luke never had any sort of vision-related connection to the lightsaber. This has been used as a point against Rey being related to the two. (Not that I really care either way.)

    Agreed. For Rey Skywalker fans though, this may have less of a tease in terms of the relationship, and a tease in the sense of "this scene will be important in retrospect." Like, something you call attention to because you're going to call back to it later and you want the audience to notice. Like how impactful that scene would have been if Rey had been a Kenobi, for example, because once again it's a Kenobi handing Luke a lightsaber and giving him a call to action. That sort of view of a tease. Anyways, how that would be impactful going forward for Luke and Rey as parent and child is clunky at best in my mind, and a moot point now.
     
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  13. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    For the record, Angelman, I'm not 'attacking' you in any way, shape, or form. Sorry if that's the impression I left you with. I'm simply disagreeing with you and providing my rationale for it. Peace. :)

    I heard all of those theories too. But you and I both know that Theory Number 1 was that Rey was Luke's daughter and Theory Number 2 was that she was Leia's (although I always thought that explaining why she'd abandon Rey would be a tough one for the audience to buy.)

    This wasn't just a 'what I wanted' kind of deal. As I pointed out above, it was the Number One fan expectation going into TLJ. ...and it was the Number One reason -- right beside Luke's character change -- why many fans hated the film so much. They thought it disrespected the Luke Skywalker who they'd idolized since first watching the OT.

    One would THINK that when something this important is teased in the first film of the trilogy, we'd have gotten the answer in Film 2 or at least 3, don'tcha think? :)

    It was THEIR lightsaber!!! The visions -- along with Maz's commentary -- were intended to cement in the minds of the audience that this same lightsaber now belonged to HER. Fans assumed from this that her bringing it to Luke was the mechanism for revealing their lineage. The passing down of a broadsword to signify one's lineage has been a trope since long before The Sword in the Stone story.

    It didn't happen. Rian Johnson, in his infinite wisdom, decreed that she was 'a nobody.' But if that was the case or IF it was always intended for her to be Palpatine's granddaughter, why the Maz lightsaber set-up? Which, by the way, was subsequently IGNORED for the rest of the trilogy.
     
    #233 Darth Derringer, Feb 17, 2022
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  14. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Some fans assumed. None of those things your listed is evidence of her lineage. Rian Johnson told a fantastic story and avoided telling some fans what they assumed. If people want the same story over and over just rewatch the OT. My biggest criticism of The Force Awakens was it was too much like A New Hope. It was so bad that some fans were waiting for Luke to tell long lost Rey the he was her father. I mean, I guess that's the story Rian Johnson could have told, but that would have been pretty boring.

    Like I said, I made pretty much the same argument you made back in 2016 until I realized I wasn't citing evidence, but my own assumptions that were likely wrong.
     
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  15. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    That is correct. You did not attack me, you attacked my reasoning (as I said), by ignoring my reasoning and pushing another “look-here’s-another-proof” question. I never suggested that you attacked me personally. Please, can you not put words in my mouth? It is a bit annoying. Thank you.


    Wrong, I know nothing of the sort. I have no data to divine what the number one and two most prevalent theories regarding Rey’s heritage was. I propose that you supposed Rey-being-Skywalker was the number one theory, because, I assume, it aligns with your desires on the subject, but none of us know that. And besides, the theories of us fans doesn’t matter the least bit. It is the artists that make the art, the rest of us just consume it; the artists owe us nothing. Again, don’t put “knowledge” in my mouth, it is rude that you try to win arguments by twisting one’s words and suggesting you know one’s thoughts. Stop it, please.


    Not that it matters, but I idolized Luke Skywalker as a kid in the 80s. To me, the 80s (and much of the 90s) WAS Star Wars to me, and Luke was Star Wars, so much so that I today don’t recognize my own face in the mirror; I always expect to see a blond and blue-eyed Luke in the mirror, ‘cause that’s who I identified with as a kid. Still, I absolutely loved the direction of Luke in the ST and the powerful narrative he got to tell, and how excellently it portrayed the broken adult to the rash youth of the OT, following the character to its, to me, logical and satisfying conclusion. Fantastic stuff. But that doesn’t really matter; what fans thought or wanted or expected is just conjecture, at best. If you didn’t like what you got, fine – I can respect that – but the fact that you didn’t like it does not make the creative decisions wrong, no matter how many fans you think you have on your side. I sincerely wish you could revel in the beauty and power and glory of the ST portrayal of Luke in the way I do, but your experience differ and that’s ok. I personally love TLJ exactly BECAUSE of its portrayal of Luke (and some other stuff, besides).


    Something this important? The passing of a weapon? I fail to see the importance of that, beyond the “please-come-help-us” subtext of the scene. A wise Jedi once said something about letting go of attachments and how what’s important is the luminous entity inside the crude matter… I paraphrase, of course. And if anything, TFA suggest the lightsaber belongs to Rey now, not Luke.



    Listen, I’m so very tired of these discussions – the endless rings of circular arguments going nowhere and that are forever repeated and re-proposed, ad nausea – arguments that have repeatedly been exchanged for more than five years now. There are hundreds, probably thousands of posts on this very site alone, going round and round and round again with the same backs and forths, and I cannot bear enduring another TLJ discussion along the line of:
    “but this proves the film is [insert negative conclusion one wishes to promote]” --> “no it doesn’t”;
    “aha, but this!” --> “again, that doesn’t prove that”;
    “but people’s feelings!!!” --> “sure, but that’s not what was attacked in the original post”;
    “but almost everybody wants” --> “that is observer bias and not known, beside, it doesn’t matter at all. Like what you like, but the stuff you don’t like isn’t objectively wrong just because you subjectively didn’t like it”.

    Sorry mate, we’ve been here for such a long, long time… I don’t have the stamina to continue the never ending dance. It erodes my will to live.
     
    #235 Angelman, Feb 17, 2022
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  16. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi Sentinel - Army of Light
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    If Rey was Luke’s daughter why would he abandon her? I don’t buy that Luke would not know of Rey’s existence because through the Force he figured out that Leia was his sister. Luke has become powerful in the Force since ROTJ, in my head canon, there is no way he would not know of Rey and/or abandon her to live on Jakku as a slave.
     
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  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Where is @Angelman? Is he safe? Is he alright?
    ...it seems, in our constant internet circular discussions, we have killed him? Would you like to see the empty profile?
    [​IMG]



    The Force works in family in weird ways. It's always felt like one of those "I didn't know until I knew, and then I knew" things. Vader didn't know Luke was his son until he learned Luke's name and confirmed it for himself. Luke didn't know Vader was Anakin until Vader straight up told him, and even then he had to prod Obi-Wan and Yoda to figure out why they lied to him. Luke also didn't know Leia was his sister until he was told he had a sister. In the PT, Anakin didn't know Padme was pregnant until she was at 9 months* and neither knew she was pregnant with twins. I won't go so far as to say that the Force functions off of beliefs and preconceived notions of a person's state, or like a computer that hasn't had an update in a while so it's not 100% up to code. I guess it's more like...a mist? Like, you can see through it and familiar things will be recognizable, but one has you get close to see the truth and changes of things. And only the Force decides when to clear things up. ...I think I'm losing myself in this example...


    I remember being a fan of the theory that Rey was a student of Luke's as well as his daughter, and when Kylo destroyed the temple, he took Rey and hid her on Jakku because he couldn't bear the thought of killing his innocent niece, but he couldn't keep her with him either. The line "what girl" and the cut line of "it is you"*** were used to justify this theory at the time, as were Rey's quick picking up on Force mind-tricks and everything else. Luke, thinking that she was dead, couldn't feel her through the Force until she showed up on his doorstep.
    However, all of the above was quickly debunked in the weeks/months after TFA's release, with Pablo Hidalgo and later JJ** confirming that the attack on the school happened years after Rey was left on Jakkuu.


    *Or around that time? It's pretty vague on how many months pregnant she was, and the fact that there were twins can throw how pregnant women "look" off. She could have been seven months and Luke and Leia could have been premature births for all we know.
    **It may have been RJ who confirmed this. It's honestly so long ago that I can't remember.
    ***I believe this line was said by a Kylo Ren figure, but I can't find the proof. All I can find is this Reddit post about LEGO TFA using the line. Why does Kylo Ren say "It is you" to Rey : StarWars (reddit.com)
     
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  18. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    Putting 'words in your mouth'? Really? Good grief, the one word I reacted to CAME DIRECTLY FROM YOU: Attack.

    I responded to your use of the 'attack' word by emphasizing I was not attacking you IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. My one word ending to you was PEACE (smiley-face).

    Sensing you were losing your cool, I made a deliberate attempt to calm things down (you know, like good forum moderators do) and you reacted to my effort to extend an olive branch by ratcheting up your emotions even more. Sorry, but I'm not playing this game with you.
     
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  19. Martoto

    Martoto Force Sensitive

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    Voluntarily. Purely voluntarily.

    Same for all the fans who thought they were being teased that she was Obi Wan's niece. Palpatine's granddaughter. Kylo's sister. Anakin reincarnate. And so on and so on. It had to be one of them. Unless you were in the camp that decided that Rey being related to nobody was the only worthwhile thing for the trilogy to do.

    The irony is that the fact that it was deliberately ambiguous was used by both camps to prove that it was definitely being teased that she was one of these things. The lack of confirmation of who she was related to in TLJ was taken as confirmation that she was not related to anyone. And TROS's blunt confirmation of who she is related to prompted some to claim that it "retconned" TLJs "confirmation".

    None of it was a tease of any particular outcome.


    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2022, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2022 ---
    The force.
     
    #239 Martoto, Feb 18, 2022
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  20. Darth Derringer

    Darth Derringer Rebel Official

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    So Luke and Anakin's old lightsaber was open to any Force-sensitive person who happened into Maz's bar/castle? Seems to me that if that were the case, a talented screenwriter like Lawrence Kasdan would have had Maz say something to Rey other than: "That lightsaber was Luke's and his father's before him -- and now, it's belongs to YOU!"

    If TLJ fans want to ignore that line -- and the whole Maz and the lightsaber sequence from TFA (as Rian Johnson did), that's fine. But then don't turn around and opine with straight-faces that Rey's lineage was never teased in JJ's TFA.
     
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