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The Last Jedi - General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DarthSnow, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I look at this thread more of how TLJ will be affected by TROS (I expect this thread to actually get a lot of traffic after Episode 9).

    We’ve all gotten our 2 cents regarding TLJ at this point whether you love, hate or are still mixed. So I don’t think there will be as much debate that we saw for the last 2 years. And let me say it was an intense debate between the fans to say the least! Lol

    But SW is always evolving and each movie sort of puts a new context regarding the previous films. The fact that Palpatine is coming back will make me go back and reevaluate ROTJ as that could end being a good or bad thing for the Saga.
     
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  2. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I really enjoyed the PT at the time, but as I watched them afterwards (on DVD) I liked it less and less. In the last few years, I've come full circle and like them again. I appreciate the world building and the macro story. I love seeing Palpatine standing there, watching the Republic Army march onto the star destroyers with the Imperial March playing.

    And perhaps this will happen with TLJ for me as well. Hopefully, TROS will add context to the story.

    I do think Johnson got an amazing performance out of many of the actors. I definitely like the look of the ST. As for Luke, I had no real expectations, but I didn't care for the way he was written. Oh well, hopefully TROS will make up for TLJ and I'll completely enjoy it.
     
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  3. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    Confession time. But also, is anybody else having this experience?

    Like a generation of fans before me, who watched Phantom Menace dozens of times before allowing themselves to realize it was bad . . .

    . . . I just don't care for The Last Jedi.

    I don't want to be a hater. I don't want to rain on anyone else's parade or convince you not to like it.

    When I was a kid, and Revenge of the Sith was coming soon, I had a dream that I saw the movie and it turned out to be awful. But I actually loved RotS.

    When Poe started "paging General Hugs," the feelings from that dream came back. I just couldn't believe it was real. It was too bad.

    I left the theater with entirely mixed feelings. I definitely wasn't elated, like I was after Force Awakens.


    Over the next weeks and months, I watched the movie over and over. I convinced myself that I loved it. I mean, it had great reviews, right? The haters were just trolls, right?

    But they weren't just trolls. Honestly? Of all my real life friends who love Star Wars, I can only think of one who likes The Last Jedi.

    And now, with nearly two years of perspective, I can finally--healthily--admit to myself that I'm not a Last Jedi fan.

    This admission has freed me to enjoy the things I enjoy about the movie to the fullest. But it has also allowed me to realize how terrible some parts truly are.

    For example, the Kylo/Rey/Guards fight is one of the best action scenes and shocking moments in Star Wars. The space battle at the beginning is pure Star Wars, too. I love these moments even more now.

    But other things, not so much. Finn and Rose figuring out hyperspace tracking, for example, is almost unwatchable to be now. The humor feels nothing like Star Wars throughout the whole film--it doesn't arise from situations, or come in "quips," but it comes from forced jokes. The shoulder-brush and the "See you around kid" aren't Luke talking--Jedi Luke was grave, stoic even. These are Mark Hamill lines.

    And most troubling, the sequence where Finn and Rose consider themselves heroes for wrecking a town of rich people. The movie stops for no apparent reason to get ham-fistedly political, and every time Finn says "we made them hurt" I physically cringe.

    Even the camerawork doesn't feel like Star Wars. Have you noticed the constant "pan in to emphasize" moments? Especially when the camera pans in to reveal BB-8 driving a walker, a moment which is fine in itself but turned into a cartoon by the camerawork?

    Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh. I'm coming to terms with my feelings about the film, and for the first time, trying to be really honest about it.

    Is anybody else, with more perspective, finding this to be true?
     
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  4. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Force Attuned

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    Some of the camerawork reminds me of Scorcese in Goodfellas or Casino, the kind of roving movements that take full advantage of the sets. I dig it.
     
    #24 bferr1972, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    While I still enjoy TLJ quite a bit, I can see where you're coming from.

    But let me ask you this: how big of a part, if any, do you think internet "discourse" played in swaying your opinion?

    Do you think you might still enjoy TLJ, to some extent, without the incessant chorus of repetitive hate the movie got?


    Because for me, even with the parts of TLJ that I genuinely like, I just feel kinda tired. For instance, the Throne Room scene is something I can't watch now without thinking about how people complain about the choreography. And the choreography itself doesn't really even bother me, personally, but it's just another reminder of how toxic the fanbase got after the film came out.

    Basically, TLJ is something that I do still like, but boy does its context feel tainted.
     
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  6. cassidy

    cassidy Rebel General

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    It's boring. Very little happens, and everything set in place by TFA (to build upon) is completely obliterated. Why would anyone care about the future of Star Wars films at this point?

    My wife and I are huge Star Wars fans, and have sadly made other plans the weekend TROS releases. It is incredibly disappointing.
     
    #26 cassidy, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2019
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  7. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    I will never understand this argument that “very little” happened during this movie. I can understand and sometimes agree with many of the criticisms I’ve heard, but this just makes no sense to me. Here’s just a few of the minor, unimportant events that happen in this movie:

    • The Resistance base on D’Qar is gone.
    • With the New Republic shattered, the First Order is taking military control of the galaxy.
    • The Resistance loses all of its ships and fighters, and most of its personnel too.
    • The First Order loses multiple Star Destroyers, including Snoke’s flagship The Supremacy.
    • Snoke himself is gone and Kylo Ren achieved what Vader never could: killing his master and taking control of the galaxy.
    • Captain Phasma is gone for real this time.
    • Admiral Ackbar is gone.
    • Leia almost dies and she meets her brother one last time
    • Luke has an entire arc in this movie and he reunites with Yoda’s spirit.
    • Luke does what is quote possibly the most heroic act a Jedi has done in all of Star Wars: he projects himself across the galaxy, stalls the First Order while the Resistance survivors escape, imparts some wisdom onto his nephew and sister, and ignites a spark of hope in the galaxy.
    • All of the new main characters from TFA continue to develop in this movie.
    And most importantly:

    • Chewie adopts a nest of Porgs, which helps him cope with Han’s death in my headcanon. The porgs will also no doubt play an integral role in TROS. ;)

    upload_2019-9-24_23-2-15.gif
     
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  8. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Nah. After two years I still think this is one of the best SW movies ever made.
     
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  9. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard

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    Let the haters hate. Let them vent it won’t effect my feelings for TLJ, because films are subjective. You love or hate a film just on personal reasons. I really hope TROS is a bad film so Star Wars could be done with. All the haters think that TROS will some how save the sequel trilogy. I’m hoping that TROS is a bad film so all the haters can just stop hanging on and move on. Whether TROS is good or bad I’ll still be a fan.

    I’m one of those guys that actually enjoyed AOTC. Films are subjective... thus fan base is the worst... unleash the negative ratings I really don’t care...

    After hearing about the recent Iger comments referring to his memoirs/book I’m really starting to wonder if they went with George’s outline for TFA, if this fandom would be in a different place right now... it’s disgusting to say the least.
     
    #29 Rogues1138, Sep 25, 2019
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  10. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    I'm right where you were at. I tried to make myself like it, argued that it was good even. I mean, all the critics said so, so who am I to disagree. But like you I came around to the opposite belief. No problem with that dude. People can like what they want, and they are free to dislike what they want.

    I think the term "haters" is just as bad as the term "shill." Labeling someone a "hater" seems to diminish the fans who truly dislike the film. If this fandom is going to get to a better place, perhaps we need to stop labeling those with whom we disagree?

    As for Iger's comments, in my opinion they really screwed the pooch. First, why NOT have JJ do George's story? Usually a film treatment is only about 15 pages give or take. It is not a full script. Take George's ideas and have JJ implement them. Doing so would have, in my mind, done two things. 1. It allows Disney to say to any critics/fans "Hey, we honored George by taking his ideas and doing them." If fans want to criticize George then fine, but at least it would have somewhat absolved Disney of some negativity. 2. IF the fans/critics did dislike the ST then at that point they are free to move forward and do their own thing.

    Further, to say George doesn't understand the difficulty and the pressure of making a Star Wars film is ridiculous. If ANYONE in the world understands the pressure, it is Lucas. Damn the dude went to the hospital while making the original due to stress.

    Personally, had I been Disney, I would also have not thrown out the EU. I would have kept the LFL levels of "cannon" and simply added a "d-level" for Disney books, comics, etc. At the VERY least if I were them now I would consider publishing new stories under the "legends" label. There is obviously a hard core group of fans who will buy that stuff if they publish it, so why not?
     
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  11. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    I totally get the tiredness. That definitely steals some of my joy in the movie. But honestly, most of my real problems with TLJ are things I felt in the theater but talked my self into enjoying.

    And actually, several of the most controversial points are things I really love. The Throne Room fight is Top 5 Star Wars battles for me. And I actually really like Grumpy Luke and the pulling-his-saber-on-Ben reveal.
     
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  12. cheewie

    cheewie Rebel Trooper

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    Hello there!, i´m new at the forum.

    I love TLJ.
    I hate TLJ.
    TLJ is the worstbest Star Wrs movie ever made, or maybe the bestworst¿?
    When I talk with many of my friends, i find people that disagrees with the film and hate it, and i find another ones that find it amazing (although even this last group tends to thing that the movie is not perfect and it has very big flaws)
    It´s the first time that I am going to write about it on the internet, and first i would like to share my vision of the saga and my relationship with it. I know this is going to be a very very long text, apologies for that!
    I have been a very big fan of Star Wars(not the first generation though, my first Star Wars movie was TPM, it was the perfect movie to get a kid as I was hooked on Star Wars, although I nowadays reckon that it was not a great movie). My favourite film on the saga is ESB, I consider that the worst is AOC... Once said that... what to do with TLJ¿? I went to the cinema the day that it was released, I loved TFA(although, once i saw it again and again I tended to be tired of it as long as it is a very well shoted remake) When I left the cinema after watching TFA, I was amazed. Almost half of my group was hating it, but the other half were impressed. Yes, it was a copy paste of ANH, but it was quintaessentially Star Wars...Han, Leia, Cheewie, X-Wing, TIEs, The Falcon...and the already-known-at-the- time -of- the- premiere-villain, Kylo Ren...was the son of Han and Leia! I also liked very much Rey and Poe(I didn´t like then and don´t like now Finn) BB8 was also great. And I didn´t realise that it was a copy of ANH until the appearence of the third Death St....Starkiller base. I think that was the very big mistake of that movie, if they have used a non-spherical weapon, or something softer, the movie would have been a nice tribute, not a copy-paste. But hey, I am here to talk about TLJ isn´t it?

    When I left the cinema I was discouraged, and felt empty. Yes, I have seen some amazing shots, but the overall sensations were bad. That kept me thinking over the subsequent days...even during the projection, I thought that I was getting bored, and that it was very sad that I was bored during a movie that I have long waited. Before watching the movie, I promised a friend that couldn´t come the first day that I will go with him later( It was Star Wars...how on earth was I going to thing that I would not fancy to watch a Star Wars movie again?) So I went again, didn´t know why...If I don´t like a movie, repeating it is nonesense, stupid and it gives money to the people that have made the movie. And after this second time...EVERYTHING was different. I understood the idea of RJ (partially) The thing is, that the division between the fandom is completely understandable. We have three plotlines (Rey, Poe and Finn) .

    The first one I think is briliant and one of the most interesting things that have been made in the series. Mark Hamill is outstanding, the definition of the force is very accurate, Ahch-To, the photography, the vision of rey and her relationship and dialogues with Kylo(except the shirt off moment). The problem with this part I think that it is not a script failure, I think it is that for the fandom its uneasy to discover that Luke Skywalker ended up not being a hero, its a grumpy man that was the responsible of the creation of Kylo Ren and his mistakes were the cause of many of the troubles of the galaxy. We are not used to that kind of things in Star Wars, but I thing that it changes the paradigm is a surprising way. I had troubles at the beginning in assuming it, but I don´t think that it is incoherent. I´m going a bit offtopic by comparing it with the Red Wedding in A Song of Ice and Fire. I was very disappointed and I stopped reading for days, but then after I continued I realized that it was an amazing plotwist. The same for Luke here, I was heartbroken, but this not means that it is a bad script. When I saw Luke handling his lightsaber to the young Kylo I was horrorized, and I think that if the movie has acomplished to make me feel this strong feelings, it´s all debt to a good(although polemical) script. It also establish a very cool and clever analogy between the failures of Luke himself and the failures of the Jedi Order in a very clever way. It is somehow brave to dare to do this, and I appreciate that. The relationship between Kylo Ren and Rey I think that it´s very well showed, and the climax in it, the battle of the throne room, despite being very similar to the end of ROTJ, it´s one of the most impressive scenes in all the saga. It´s a dirty fight and still spectacular, which makes it different. The revelations made at this point(Rey´s parents, Snoke´s Death) are contradictorial with TFA, and it will be a very big mistake if they don´t explain any further of that two isuues in TROS...but I really think JJ will do it(I don´t necessaryly need that Rey´s parents are important, as a matter of fact the idea of heroes coming from nothing is interesting, as Luke in ANH. But they MUST explain why is she so powerful )Ok...once said that... The problem with the movie is not this, is that, between seeing this amazing part, we are interrupted by the other to parts of the plotlines, which are, is a lot of cases, the worst that have been made in a Star Wars films.

    The second one is the Resistance plotline. Many people says that it is incoherent and nonesenese that bad ones ship pursues good ones ship during all the movie. I don´t thing that it is necessarily and completely nonesense...but all the same, it is BORING. It has some good things, I still like Poe very much and showing him being mistaken it´s another interesting idea... The sacrifice of Holdo it´s also visually amazing...But the rest is, at least as I said, boring. Leia flying though the space is a shameful scene. It´s okay, even necessary, to show her controlling the Force...but not this way, I was not believing how someone thought that this scene could be in the movie...And even the most diehard fans of the movie agree at this point.

    The third one is the Canto Bight/FinnRose plotline. This is the worst thing I have seen in the saga and I would say that it is even under the average comparing with any blockbuster. The script is nonesense, they get caught because they park their ship in the beach, when they are supposed to be undercover. They end up in jail with another hacker who is not the one they were looking for. That hacker then leaves prison, he could´ve have left anytime before, but he decides to do then for some reason I cannot explain. Finn and Rose then decide to trust in a man, they do not know anything from him, furthermore, he doesn´t seem reliable, but they decide to trust him. In their getaway, they release the falthiers and get out with them. It was in this moment when I realised how bored I was, and that I had no sensation of being watching a Star Wars movie...it looked like other thing, more or less a Harry Potter scene(one of the philosopher´s stone or like that, even the last films of Harry Potter are more serious than Canto Bight) I like Harry Potter series very much, but this part of a STAR WARS movie didn´t fit at all. When they are about to fall by a cliff, misteriously DJ appears to save them in a non-stop Deus ex machina parade. They manage to escape, they get in the Snoke´s destroyer, out of camera they dress somehow with First Order suits, they are discovered, Finn defeats Phasma in an anticlimatic and rutinary fight and they later arrive to Crait. And, as I said before, all this scenes interrupt and cut wonderful scenes as Yoda talking with Luke or Snoke´s throne scene. If you see that last scene for instance in Youtube, without interruptions, it´s astonishing. The Finn/Rose plotline slows the pacing too much, gives a lot of WTF in the worst way moments, and makes the length of the movie unnecessarily long and dull. Furthermore, in my first viewing, when the final act in Crait(One of the bests or maybe THE best part of the movie )arrives, the viewer feels in a mix of boredom and confussion, at least it was my case. This feelings at this moment makes that the viewer probably find difficult to enjoy the best part of the movie.

    This last part, as a concept, is originally strange and breaks not only the structure of the previous films, but almost the majority of other films in general. Crait part, as a see it, is like a fourth act. After viewing the climax in the other plotlines (Snokes throne, Holdo´s sacrifice; Finn vs Phasma(if anyone can call this last one a climax), we confront the real final part of the movie. I think that the battle of Crait is the most spectacular battle in the saga. The visuals are superb, and artistically that mixture between red and white, the photography, the shots, all of that makes a astonishing battle and makes it different to any other saga battles. Yes, it has ressemblances to Hoth´s battle, but at least for me the rest of things makes it different enough,and impressive. Many people discusses the strategic movements of the Resistance, they say that it´s useless to face the AT-AT with the speeders, but the fact is that the key point was the laser cannon, they were trying to destroy it, and Finn heroicly almost achives it ( I was thinking at that moment ``well, I don´t like the charachter, but if he ends like this I will remember him with some honor´´. But not, Rose ``saves´´ him almost killing him crashing, and the following dialogue is one of the most embarrassing I´ve ever heard. This couple ruins every scene they appear. The intervention of Luke, his final duel with Kylo and the resolution of it, is as suprising as epic. Luke shows that his control of the Force is beyond any other jedi before him had achived, sacrifices himself for the others just as Obi Wan did, and gives hope again to the galaxy as a symbol. At the beginning I had some issues and didn´t like not having a proper lightsaber duel as any star wars fan would wanted, but the resolution of the film has in the end grown pretty much on me, it´s very different to anything done before. Besides, if Luke had to die at this point... Could he have ended as a powerful legend if he had lost a classic lightsaber duel against Kylo, that pressumibly is less powerful than Luke? And, another thing that nowbody seem to consider... Is Mark Hamill fit and shape enough to phisically move like a great jedi sword master? If Rian Johnson had decided to have a classic lightsaber duel, maybe, only maybe, people will be hating the movie for a pathetic and esthathic Luke. Only maybe. Perhaps Mark Hamill is an athletic man at his almost seventies, I don´t know.

    A final consideration for the final scene. In my first viewing, I was thinking... are they going to put a Galaxy´s Edge advertisement now or what? But well, the idea of Luke inspiring another generation of force users is a beautiful one, although is pretty childish, Star Wars is somehow about that...And the kid grabs the broomstick with the Force, I didn´t realize of this detail in my first viewing...And I like it!

    I would like to stop on two big and well-known troubles that I haven´t mentiones before. The humour: It is one of the biggest torubles, although some specifical jokes work, most of them are out of place, breaking the intensity and epic of some moments. Luke tossing the saber(is consequent with the movie that he rejects it, but it´s anticlimatic that he throws it that way, it´s the first signal that the viewer has that Luke isn´t the wise old jedi they expected, the script should have taken this more seriously) the initial Poe gag(although if you have read Consequences trilogy, the joke is a bit, only a bit more contextualized) The iron moment(painful)... All of this leads us to the second big trouble, the lack of tonal coherence, you don´t know if you are watching a silly child movie( as some of the previous movies), or the most adult, phlosophical and dark entrance of the series. This lack of tonal coherence blocks the viewer on focussing in all the trascendental issues that the script gives us. On the other side, the new charachter thet were deilivered to us in TFA were succesful(Poe, Rey, BB(, and in my opinion Kylo Ren) but not Finn) but the new ones aren´t very good, especially Rose and DJ, I don´t stand them. Hux is denigrated and is very steps down.

    Well, if someone has read until this point, I thank the attention for reading all this. I had a lot of impressions and considerations that I wanted to express, and I wanted to express them two years ago form now! I will appreciate if someone thinks like me or kind of to tell me his/her impressions. I have more impressions about other things such as OST and things like that.

    May the force be with you!

    My top, considering my strange feeling about TLJ will be

    1.-ESB
    2.-Best parts of TLJ
    3.-ROTJ
    4.-ROTS
    5.-ANH
    6.-TFA
    7.- Rogue One
    8.-TPM
    9.- Solo
    10.-AOC
    11.-Worst parts of TLJ
     
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  13. cheewie

    cheewie Rebel Trooper

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    I think TROS will try very hard to give coherence not only to the sequel trilogy, but to the entire saga. JJ has already said it, so let´s hope it will succeed in it. But, although TROS will be even the best possible film, I am sure it won´t be able to change bad plotlines in TLJ such as Canto Bight. I find very difficult to belive that I will be fond of Finn, Rose, DJ or Hux after watching TROS... My only hope is that they will not be very determinant in this final film...

    As you said, spliting the main characters in TLJ has been a very risky move, and it has worked plenty for Rey( she couldn´t have developed her relationship with Kylo if she had Finn flying around) it has partially worked for Poe(the Resistance plotline is a bit boring, but Poe is the only character that matters to me in this point, and it has been a total failure for Finn, I didn´t even like him as a second line person that went with Rey, in TLJ he has his own plotline and sinks very deeply, there is no character that minimally keeps my attention in Canto Bight, the addition of Rose only gets things worse...

    Rey and Kylo are the true main characters of this trilogy, at this point they are the only ones that matters to me for TROS, besides Poe as a secondary character and well... I think we all wait to see old characters as Luke coming back as force-ghosts...But I keep saying myself not to expect too much in this aspect as I could end up disappointed if old characters don´t show up finally. For the good or bad, TLJ has taught me to not expecting for my theories to become real...I think in fact this has been an intentional purpose of RJ.
     
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  14. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    But it's not like he did it just for the sake of doing it, at least in my opinion. The second act is generally where our characters experience failure so that they can (eventually) progress, right? There was never going to be wholesale "progression" in this film for Rey, Finn, Poe, etc... it was all about regression. It happened in ESB just the same; none of our heroes ended that film in a good place. They all had failure on their hands. Or hand, in Luke's case.

    The same thing happened here in TLJ. Now it's a bit different because I think TLJ ends on a much higher note than ESB ever did, and we actually get to see our heroes come around a bit and learn from their mistakes by the end of the film. Which was very welcome because for me it was one heck of an emotional ride. The Rescue on Crait in TLJ is the equivalent of Jabba's Palace in RotJ in that regard.

    edit:
    PS - Welcome to the forum!
     
    #34 DarthSnow, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
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  15. cheewie

    cheewie Rebel Trooper

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    Yes, TLJ ending was a bit brighter than ESB...but somehow it didn´t made too much hype for ep. IX when I left the cinema (I am a bit hyped at the moment, but also I am a bit afraid that bad things of ep VII(copy-paste script) and VIII (incoherent and silly plotlines, bad humour) are going to repeat in TROS. If hope that they have learnt from the feedback but... I am not sure if that is a good idea, TLJ was so irreverent and not alike Star Wars movie because all the criticism with TFA being a copy-paste...Everyone is saying that it is a shame that they started this trilogy with three directors and not even a general plotline. The thing is that as far as I know there actually was a general plotline that was written by JJ, then LF allowed RJ to change it. ANd my speculation (and it is a very hard and daring speculation) is that it was after the fandom critics to TFA, Rian decided to take the script and carry it to a different place. If you think about it, TLJ has a strong base on ESB, it´s a movie about failure, the characters are in different places, the main character goes to a remote place to train as a jedi, the rebels leave their base because they are attacked by the first order/Empire and in the end they reunite toghether...Maybe this base was provided by JJ script, but after TFA critics RJ decided to makes changes, Luke doesn´t agree to train Rey as Yoda did with him, he used a ROTJ scene that maybe was planned in the preliminarr ep IX script, the climax is about revealing a parentage in ESB, and TLJ does exactly the same but at the time the opposite(I am your father vs Your parents are nothing). And I can see a lot of examples of making slight changes that finally end in a very different result, as changing a Hothalike battle from the beginning to the end of the movie and things like that...Maybe LF DID have an overall script of the trilogy, and maybe it was a total remake of the OT, but if TLJ was been a total remake of ESB it would have been too much for us,. It partially worked for TFA and all the same there are a lot of people that think that it was not the right formula. There had to be several changes in TLJ that could make it a different thing. I left the cinema with a bad sensation of the movie, but when I left the cinema I had not the feeling that it has been a remake. So they got that objective right... Besides, the situation at the end of the movie makes (almost) impossible to continue episode IX as a remake of ROTJ, and that is a very good thing(It is like Rian saying ``I won´t control episode IX script, but I am going to grant that it´s not going to be a remake´´)

    All that said I also tend to think that it is very strange that RJ was completely free writing the script. I know that he has several times said that LF gave him total freedom...But it is very odd to think that the same guy that has written an allegorical and dark picture of the jedi and Luke Skywalker has also wirtten Canto Bight, Rose, bad jokes and porgs(I liked porgs for the record, but their scenes in the Millenium Falcon in the final act were very out of place). I am more inclined to think that all this things were more Disney alike things, and it was more a Kathleen Kennedy idea(and imposition) than Rian´s. It doesn´t fit at all, the movie is a very strange mix combining the brilliand ideas of one of its plotlines and the very bad ones of other plotlines. But Rian keeps saying that he has made everything, so I don´t know what to think...

     
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  16. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    It definitely didn't end on the same kind of cliffhanger that TFA did. And speaking of that, this is a question I've been wanting to ask for awhile...

    I was really expecting TLJ to end on another cliffhanger. The way the scene was shot, the music, and everything was playing out, I thought this was going to be the closing scene of the movie:
    [​IMG]

    If that DID happen.... what would be your guys reaction? Would it change how you viewed the film at all?

    (For the sake of argument, let's say that IX would open the same way that TLJ ends; then there is a time jump after TLJ's true ending)
     
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  17. cheewie

    cheewie Rebel Trooper

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    I wouldn´t have liked it, It´s not a TV show when you can watch the next episode the following week, it is a movie that a lot of people waited for two years... I am pretty divided about the movie, but this scene is one of the major possitive points that keeps me partially(50%50% partially) defending it. The treatment of Luke is very controversial, he starts the movie upset, discouraged and angry...It is an original way to portrait him, but also is disappointing to watch this as a fan...In this scene Luke completes his arch, he finally becomes the hero and the new(old) hope he is supposed to be. And in this moment of the film, he proves his Force skills and his heroic act encourage the galaxy to keep fighting even when it all seems to be lost, as we see in the final scene. TLJ is already somehow a strange film, but it finishes complete. Luke has a complete arch in the movie and it´s more interesting than the young Luke arch in OT (I think that the only interesting thing in Luke in the OT was that he was the main character, Han, Leia or Vader are more attractive) But Mark Hamill increases the level in this one, he has proven that he is a much better actor now, even when he partially thought that Luke character wasn´t coherent(I don´t know which of his statements is true as he contradicts himself)

    Besides, it gives sense to previous good scenes as the talk with Yoda, or advertising Rey of the danger of telepatical Force projections. The fact is that, at least in my first viewing, I arrived very tired and angry to this point of the plot, after watching the narrative disaster that was Canto Bight, the slow pacing and too much silly jokes. I had decided somehow at this point that I didn´t like the movie even though it had not finished yet... All of this made me not to enjoy in this first viewing how wonderful is Crait´s battle and Luke´s end, and I think that it has happened with many viewers...When I watched the film after, I realised how cool it was.
     
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  18. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I'm sure people felt that way after watching Empire for the first time in 1980.
     
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  19. cheewie

    cheewie Rebel Trooper

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    Empire has a very good cliffhanger, but we see how Luke and Vader fought, the final revelation...I think that the movie ended when it had to end, as TLJ more or less also does(The problem of TLJ in my opinion is in the core of the movie, the ending is alright...) ESB has a true ending, with a final fight, but it also has a cliffhanger that hypes you to the next movie(Han being kidnapped by Jabba). If it would have ended just after Luke arrives to Bespin before confronting Vader, the viewers would had the feeling that the movie does not end properly, as a chapter of a TV show (not a finale of the season, but an average chapter)
     
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  20. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    Ironically, on my first viewing of the TLJ DVD film at home, I think that my mom came in at the "prank phone" call scene, and she kinda laughed or was like- "a sense of humor!" I think that she was surprised or felt relieved that the movie wasn't taking itself seriously. Sometimes, films are too serious.

    Also, I was somewhat disappointed when watching ROTS for the first time. Specifically, I did not like Anakin being burned alive to transition to being a cyborg; it felt a little too convenient to me to explain some of Vader's injuries. Additionally, Mace Windu's death was underwhelming for me, even though I was spoiled by the local newspaper about it to some degree. Otherwise, I think that the film was fine.

    While I think that shoulder-brush act could be a forced joke, it reminds me of Luke's salute a bit from the Sarlacc pit barge scene in ROTJ. The parallelism could be intentional here. The "See you around, kid" is a direct Han Solo quote from the first SW film, so it actually has meaning, more than a joke (plus, I thought that Hamill said the line seriously in that scene).

    I don't mean to sound rude, but could you specify which Jedi Luke you're talking about here? In my opinion, there is a huge difference between ESB Luke and ROTJ Luke, which is somewhat due to the (subjective) quality of the writing, Hamill's acting, and the degree of logical actions that Luke carries out in the script.

    I find ESB Luke to be incredibly underrated compared to ROTJ Luke, and I actually find ESB Luke to be more heroic and complex as a character, despite ESB's more ambiguous/dark tone (Even though, Gary Kurtz said that is stark black and white/good and evil in the film. Yes, good and evil is still there, but it's blurred a bit, from what I can tell). Perhaps that's part of the reason why I actually like TLJ Luke- there's a lack of pretense about him that echoes ESB Luke. (I cannot say the same for some of the writing given for ROTJ Luke, who has a weird arrogance/ sudden or unexpected confidence at times after ESB, and whose heroism runs straight into flatsville at times by not having enough ground to stand on through the weird arrogance and actually-I am being honest here- ROTJ Luke's rather delusional/illogicial/ignorant way of thinking at key parts of the film).

    Anyway, it's fine to not like TLJ or parts of it after liking it. I believe that I read once in a George Lucas Interviews book (which I believe was published in 1999) that George Lucas said (and I think that this was actually an interview right after the original SW came out) that some individuals were calling the film the best film ever and others were calling it trash or the worst film ever. Lucas concluded that one should just see his film as a film. I think that's a good way to view a film.
     
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