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The Last Jedi - General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DarthSnow, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    I thnk the movie is just pure crap. Period. It had too many plot holes. The characterizations seemed like an utter failure. And the subversive elements of the movie struck me truly unnecessary and badly written. I really like it when a movie is subversive, especially within a movie franchise or TV series. I got the feeling that Johnson was trying to be subversive just for the sake of being so, without any regard to the narrative for the movie or the trilogy. And to think he got a Saturn Award for the screenplay.
     
    #41 CTrent29, Oct 20, 2019
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  2. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Different strokes for different folks right? Personally, as a Saga film, I think it's pretty bad. But, as a standalone film, I don't think it's bad. So I'm kind of opposite from you. :D

    Let me ask you, what do you like about it? I'm not trolling here, nor looking for a fight (as I think many of us are when it comes to this film). As a long time Star Wars fan I really dislike it (although there are aspects that I think are good), but I want to try and understand why those who like it feel that way.
     
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  3. JohnMarston1911

    JohnMarston1911 Rebelscum

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    A few things that bring down the movie for me:
    The opening battle over D'Qar is awful. Hux is quickly turned into a joke. It makes no sense why the FO isn't immediately firing on the man (Poe) who just blew up SK Base. The Resistance Bombers are dreadfully slow and fragile. Competent leadership from the FO would have been able to avoid a Destroyer being blown up, but yet they lost one anyway.


    Luke throwing the saber away like a cheap gag and storming off.

    Luke's depressed characterization in general.

    Leia flying through space. Its grown on me but its still ridiculous.

    Hyperspace ramming. No reason to go in to any detail on that.

    Rey's force vision in the cave. Waste of time and was a downer when it revealed a reflection of her.



    What I like

    Luke yelling "Go away" and Chewie kicking in the door.

    Luke and Rey training scenes. Just Beautiful.

    Canto Bight. Which I'm sure surprises people. I just like the environment and meeting DJ.

    DJ as a character in a whole.

    Rey and Kylo and Snoke entire throne room scene.

    The Battle of Crait.


    Something I have mixed feelings on
    Luke vs Kylo.

    The astral projection is cool and shows how insanely powerful in the force Luke is. And the scene where he disappears is sad but done well.

    But it would have been awesome to see Luke and Kylo have a physical lightsaber fight with Luke actually there.





     
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  4. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Then Kylo would've been killed of Luke would've been killed. On the Death Star, Luke was never trying to kill his father. Anytime he used a saber it was defensive. Except for one and it almost lured Luke to the darkside. He was trying to save Anakin. This is Luke 'saving' Kylo by not using his saber while also being a beacon of Hope for the Resistance. Why do you think he said "no one is ever really gone"?
     
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  5. JohnMarston1911

    JohnMarston1911 Rebelscum

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    Kylo Ren is a threat to the galaxy. The biggest threat to the galaxy as Supreme Leader of the FO. That's why it would he morally justifiable to confront and take him out.

    I get your point though.
     
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  6. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Force Attuned

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    Kylo has crossed a threshold of the Dark Side. When he said “Let the Sith, let the Jedi, let it all die.” Kylo sounds like Darth Ruin who became a meglomaniac and turned against traditonal Sith dogmas:

    “There is no passion…there is solely obsession.
    There is no knowledge. There is solely conviction.
    There is no purpose. There is solely will.
    There is nothing…
    Only me.” -THE CREED OF DARTH RUIN

    A22EEC4D-E368-4143-B0A5-7910833B4A2D.jpeg
    Darth Ruin

    Oppose to the Sith Code:

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.”
     
    #46 Kato Sai, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  7. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    I was surprised too at how many shared the opposite opinion of mine. I don't mean that in an arrogant way, but I'm going to ask you to repay the favor and to explain why it works for you as a standalone film but not part of the saga. :)

    I've went back and forth between a lengthy detailed post and something more concise. So in a semi-nutshell, here's why I love TLJ :

    The entire film is just so personal. It's so much more character interaction than it is get in an x-wing and blow stuff up and I really enjoyed seeing that kind of intimacy in a "sci-fi action flick." I've seen it said a thousand times that it's "boring" and "nothing happens" and on the surface, maybe they're partially right; the Resistance is still standing albeit at a fraction of the numbers they once had, but the core group remains. And the FO loses a few ships and has a slight change in leadership but that's it. So, what happens?

    Everyone grows. Every major character is proven wrong and learns that while they think they had everything figured out, they have a long way to go. And we actually SEE this happen (and for me, I felt it -- my heart was in my throat at least 4 or 5 times when I first saw it). It's more subtle in some characters than with others, but every single one of them ends that movie in a much different place than when they began. Overall it's all just so much more internal struggles than it is external, and personally I thought the actors did a hell of a job of showing that transformation, and the story showed that well by having everyone initially fail but get back on the right path by the third act (with the exception of one -- but we haven't entered his third act yet ;)).

    It's hard to talk about it without going into specifics about each character but I was trying to stay brief; if there's any character in particular that's got you puzzled, we can skip right into that. I by no means have all the answers or expect to change any minds, but would be happy to help you understand where my own love for the movie comes from.
     
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  8. Rodney-2187

    Rodney-2187 Jedi General

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    Frodo - It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.

    Gandalf - It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. My heart tells me that Gollum has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. The pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.

    Frodo - I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

    Gandalf - So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.

    (You read that in Ian McKellen's voice, didn't you?)
     
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  9. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Can't to see Merry in Episode 9
     
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  10. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    First, thanks for the response. And I in no way took your post as arrogant. I, of course, love Star Wars so talking about it is always a pleasure. Even when I disagree.

    I guess my first problem was with the tone of the film, especially early on. Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder seemed comedic to me and, again to me, didn't fit the tone at the end of TFA. Jeremy Jahns recently did a reaction video on YouTube to the trailer for TROS. In the middle he used Luke's voice from that trailer but put it over that scene in TLJ and yeah, the tone isn't the same. If this were a stand alone film, I think there wouldn't be a problem with it.

    A second problem I have is the fact that it appears there has been no move forward in technology, and one could argue it's gone backwards. The bombers in the opening scene are a prime example. Why are they so doggone slow? I get the idea of Star Wars as "diesel-punk," but it really looks like that is a step or 3 backwards. In a stand alone film, that would be okay, but this is a series thus to me it just doesn't work.

    A third problem is Luke. I'll preface this by saying I'm not "team Luke." I haven't been since I saw Empire way back in 1980. And while I think "world-weary" or "war-torn" or "bitter" Luke is interesting, I really think it doesn't fit with the character we last saw in Jedi. In a stand alone film, this is okay (and I mean stand alone as in not a Star Wars film but just a sci-fi film). They needed something a bit more developed to explain him wanting to end the Jedi order than what we were given. I am okay with deconstructing the hero, but that explanation, in my opinion, was weak.

    The last one I'll mention, as I don't want this to be like a dissertation, but the character Holds and the "maneuver." I think the choices with her wardrobe were okay if this wasn't Star Wars, but having her walk around in an evening gown and with a crown/tiara... She's an admiral in a military organization. Maybe it's cause I was in the Navy but hearing admiral and then seeing her dressed like that... Is it nit-picky? I guess. But there it is. It just didn't work for me.

    This leads to the "maneuver." Again, in a stand alone, no biggie. But I really feel like it contradicts internal continuity of the Star Wars saga. The scene is visually stunning. I like the lack of sound, although it's not the first time we've seen it (and I took it as a bit of a nod to Lucas and the Attack of the Clones). But why was it not done before? Not only that but in Rogue One we see a ship jump and then one can't and it wrecks into Vader's Star Destroyer. Now I know the novelization explains that there are fail-safes which Holdo disabled in order to do this. But this is still problematic. Why wasn't it done before? TLJ established there is a war economy in the galaxy so why not develop drone ships that can do this? Had this been a stand alone sci-fi film, no big deal. But it breaks the internal continuity.

    There are some parts of the film that I like, and I can't argue that Johnson got some great performances out of the actors. The cinematography is fantastic as well. I just feel he played loose with the "rules" so to speak of the Star Wars universe. To me that is problematic. I understand there are fans who love the film. I wish I was one of those. I hate the fact I dislike the film as much as I do. Hopefully the Mandalorian, the final season of The Clone Wars and The Rise of Skywalker will be something that ALL of us will enjoy. :)
     
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  11. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    An equal preface to this; after I started answering you I realized that I was of the total opposite viewpoint on most aspects, but again I don't mean it to sound as if this is a case of right vs wrong.

    I don't think it was ever meant to the fit the tone of TFA. As much as ESB didn't follow up ANH with the same sort of "everything is chaos but it will work out in the end." The saber toss didn't bother me but I can see why it's a talking point; I didn't mind it at all at first, but it's not something that grows on me with multiple viewings either. Agreed that could have been slightly better portrayed... but at the same time it very plainly set the overall theme of "this is not going to go the way you think." And that's not meant to be a subversion joke. I just very simply think that hardly anyone expected Luke to react that way, but knowing what we do now about his frame of mind at the time it seems a pretty reasonable response.

    To be fair, we haven't really seen anything like these bombers previously -- which to me implies better tech and a lack of something to compare "speed" to. Compared to heavy artillery on the ground, I would expect it to be something similar to a tank versus a jeep with a mounted machine gun. Or rather, if the X-wings could carry that amount of firepower, they would. And not to keep harping on the ESB comparison, but the AT-AT walkers come to mind as an easy mirror to this; heavy guns, but plenty of time for the opposition to find a way to take them out. Which, in both instances, they were hampered but ultimately successful.

    It was a very jarring change from the character we last saw in RotJ. But, it didn't automatically disqualify "Luke" as we knew him, at least for me. Think back to a line from TFA regarding Ben Solo's fall; Han says "I went back to the only thing I was ever any good at" and Leia says "We both did".... that statement didn't include Luke but I think it still applies to him. He seeked out seclusion. He went back to a simple life of farming. He's the Luke we first met back on Tatooine, and once again, the only thing that breaks him from his routine is a chance to help Leia.

    Man, I gotta admit that i had no idea what you were talking about with the crown/tiara deal -- I legit had to look it up. I never even noticed that during the film, after like... sheesh. However many dozen some viewings. Thanks for pointing that out! Now.... I don't want to get into semantics but after checking it out, I don't get that same "crown" type vibe. Nothing with her appearance seems out of line compared to anything I've seen from Padme or Leia.

    As for the maneuver, I thought it was awesome. It was spontaneous, but smart and calculated. And really, the overall concept doesn't break continuity at all in my opinion. They even mention that Starkiller Base is a "hyper lightspeed weapon" in TFA, so the only thing that changes in TLJ is that you are replacing the projectile of energy with mass, which seems pretty resourceful to me. It's obviously not something that would be used often; it's a kamikaze move, and that also seems to ring true with a lot of what Lucas originally envisioned with the dogfights emulating WWII maneuvers, albeit on a much bigger scale.

    Again I don't want any of this to sound confrontational, but I just simply don't see it the same way, and I definitely don't feel that any "rules" were broken at all. As you said I have faith that IX will add a lot to the previous two episodes and hopefully will leave us feeling plenty satisfied!
     
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  12. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    No worries! I totally get ya. THIS is the type of conversation that is needed. Instead of "what are you thinking!!!!" or some sort of similar response. Two fans can watch the same film and arrive at totally different conclusions. Nothing wrong with that.

    The tone thing might have worked out better had they set The Last Jedi a few years after it, but who knows?

    Heck, I'm just glad I pointed out something you hadn't noticed! Especially since I've not seen it nearly as much. :D I noticed it right away and I was like WTF?????

    Hopefully, over time, the passion will die down and fans will view it as just another Star Wars film. One we may not like, but can live with.

    I can live with Luke as he was portrayed. I just think a bit more of an exposition was needed, but I'm not the film maker. I just think they should have been cognizant of the fact that Luke is L.O.V.E.D. by a large part of the fanbase and without something to explain this more than just a few second of on film flashback you are gonna cause a meltdown. LOL

    You've definitely given me something to think about. Thanks.
     
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  13. Darth Goon

    Darth Goon Clone Trooper

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    I don't think I'll ever truly like the film. I'll eventually give it a few more views and see. I'm old school and wished for a grander role for Luke.

    I understand they have to please younger generations, and old Luke, Han, Leia, aren't exactly the marketable characters they once were. I find it hard to accept the new heroes as a replacement for the originals.

    The Hyperspace Kamikaze was a rather convenient yet weak solution, and does indeed pose a problem for every single space vehicle conflict hence forth. It looked cool and my wife and kids loved it, while I was like "whatever" when I saw it.

    I'd be interested to hear what experts like Pablo Hidalgo had to say about it.
     
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  14. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Have been a fan for 42 years and have seen every single piece of Star Wars content on film and TV. Have read many books, comics, etc. Listened to the radio dramas when they were actually on the radio. Read articles from all over the world when I needed to use microfiche to do it.

    The Last Jedi is simply the best Star Wars ever. Watched it twice more last week after the trailer dropped and it just gets better. It is the deepest Star Wars. has the most interesting twists and visual elements that tie together things in a very nuanced fashion. Just love it.

    If the 1st Star Wars films were held to the same standards of real world physics, humor, so called plot holes Star Wars would have ended way back in 1977. Yet audiences didnt, but now some Star Wars fans want Star Wars not to be a space fantasy for the 12 year old in all of us.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 31, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 31, 2019 ---
    When ESB came out I loved it and hated it. Loved it because like TLJ it was awesome. Hated it because I had to wait 3 years for so much to be answered. It wasnt a complete story. It wasnt supposed to be a complete story. It was the middle part of a 3 part story.
     
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  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    It really doesn't pose a problem.
    Why was the attack on Pearl Harbor such a standout event?
    Because of the kamikaze attack. If you don't use the element of surprise a kamikaze is not as effective.
    Secondly, it's wildly inefficient. So a group of rebels would not dare do this frequently. Hence them all being stuck on a planet with no apparent escape.

    It was a last ditch effort to save the Resistance. It could have just as easily backfired but a risk that needed taking. It won't always work because know they'll expect it.
     
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  16. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Ok so lets revisit the possible outcomes of Luke vs Kylo. 1st real Luke would have had to survive the walkers attack. Then either Kylo wins or Luke wins. If Luke wins trilogy cut to 2 films. Kylo wins and were supposed to believe that Rey takes out Kylo later.

    See the dilemma of Luke is to make people happy with him being the Luke Superman the trilogy just doesnt work. The First Order could never have came about. So having superman Luke appear in TFA or TLJ ruins the films. JJ said it about TFA when it was being written. You have Luke enter the movie and he sucks all the air out of the room. So JJ takes GL story of Luke as off in exile because he failed as a Jedi Master teaching students. This is established by Han in TFA. Luke blamed himself and it is obvious to the audience Kylo was the student.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 31, 2019, Original Post Date: Oct 31, 2019 ---
    Are you saying "Great shot kid that was 1 in a million".
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I wasn't trying to be so on the nose....but yes, yes I am.
    It's also why DS2 and SKB are the worst parts of their respective films.
     
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  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    What works on the left, what doesnt on the right. Whats cringy on the right, whats not on the left. What makes sense on the left what doesnt ont the right.

    This will be random and not in order.

    Darth Vader Star Destroyer follows Tantive IV through hyperspace to Tatooine. First Order out of range of Resistance.
    C3PO getting tangles in wires of Millennium Falcon. Porgs on the Falcon.
    Giant Spaceworm living on an asteroid in space. Leia using the Force to pull herself back on board.
    We’re fine. We’re all fine here now, thank you. How are you? Boring conversation anyway. Holding for Hugs.
    ANH takes a detour for a sequence about a garbage monster and somehow the Empire cant figure out where they are. TLJ takes a detour to Canto Bight.
    Tanks walking on stilts. Bombers flying slowly through space.
    Death Star flys around planet to target rebels. Kamikaze ship.
    Half witted scruffy looking nerf herder. That is just hysterical. Luke brushes off dust.
    Luke flips lightsaber to the side. Luke flips lightsaber over his shoulder.

    It is trick or treating time. Could go on and on.
     
    #58 KeithF1138, Oct 31, 2019
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  19. Darth Goon

    Darth Goon Clone Trooper

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    Sure there are lots of things that aren't that plausible, but now the hyperspace kamikaze is out of the bag, every big ship, death star, or planet killing device better suffer the same fate. Essentially you can't have a "battleship" any more thanks to RJ, or whoever came up with that idea.
     
  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Why are people so hung up on this? It is just nuts. Do the movies need to explain everything away as to why something would or wouldnt be something to do all the time? It is just so tiresome. Search around you will find 101 reasons why it was a desperate measure that would not make for a good strategy.
     
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