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The Last Jedi - General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DarthSnow, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Darth Goon

    Darth Goon Clone Commander

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    Why? Because now every single ship with a hyperspace drive has a weapon more powerful than any conventional SW weapon. Put a droid on board and you've got the ultimate dirty bomb. You don't think the Empire or First Order would force pilots to do this when necessary? You don't think the Rebels would have stumbled over themselves to pilot a kamikaze vessel to take out the first couple of Deathstars? Pretty sure they'd just automate the process and create dedicated hyperspace weapons don't you think. It's not comparable to Japanese Zeroes bashing into aircraft carriers in WWII. It's indefensible.

    It's created a very real problem for any conflict involving large and powerful space vessels.

    Yes I know it's all make believe, but you need to show some respect for how things work in your imaginary world. It's poor writing plain and simple, trading in the rules of your Universe for fancy explosions and effects.
     
  2. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

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    There are no established rules that specifically forbid something like that and it's not RJ's fault that nobody came up with this idea before.
    And if you are worried that every space battle should now come down to this - yes, exactly, maybe it should. Long-running sci-fi series do feature space warfare, that evolves over time.
     
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  3. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Except you'd have to have a enough ship's to make a viable choice. Even if you'd win the battle, you'll never win the war. You'd loose more then you gain
     
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  4. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    All that is needed is 1 plausible reason why it wouldnt be a good choice for a battle you arent desperate to escape and like I said you can search around and find many. Scratch that you dont need 1 plausible reason. You need to understand that you are dealing in a fantasy world and you just need to go with it. Did you go off on the plausibility of the Death Star really able to supply enough power to actually destroy a planet? SKB really being able to suck all the energy out of a sun and then store it and use it to send a beam across the galaxy. No you just accepted it and went with it. How many movies do you see actors fighting each other and just pummeling away each other for 10 minutes. How about a movie where a moon is pulled down and thrown at people.

    I said it once I will say it a 100 times. You are only punishing yourself if you go into a Star Wars movie and look at what goes on and try to evaluate the plausibility of plot devices to move a story forward.
     
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  5. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    I think there's a fairly obvious set of circumstances here with the Holdo Maneuver that don't apply to every other space battle as we know it:
    • The size of ships on both ends. The Raddus was able to bisect the Supremacy and take a few Star Destroyers with it. It didn't even destroy the Supremacy in whole, although it did effectively disable it. Even if everyone perished on the smallest wing that was cut off from the main part of the ship, that's still about two thirds survival odds. And, there isn't a ship within any Rebel Fleet that would scratch the surface of any Death Star with that same maneuver. I don't even know if the Supremacy would be able to take out a Death Star.
    • [​IMG]

    • The amount of people on board the Raddus / ability to escape safely. The Resistance had a great plan. It would have worked without DJ's betrayal. I think in most large-scale space battles, you're not going to have an opportunity to evacuate a cruiser entirely, safely, to the point where it's viable to sacrifice so many of your own just for a chance to take out the opposition. And think what that would do for morale -- why would I want to fight for an Admiral who at the first sign of things going south is just going to turn us all into one big sacrifice?

    • The fate of the Raddus if this maneuver doesn't happen. So if the Resistance's plan works, the escape ships make it safely to Crait. Holdo stays on the Raddus luring the FO on a wild goose chase, until eventually it runs out of fuel and is destroyed. Holdo still dies, the Raddus is still gone. Knowing that, she makes the choice to make use of their last resource in the best way possible. And to give her comrades a fighting chance.
     
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  6. Darth Goon

    Darth Goon Clone Commander

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    Ok let's say I buy into the plausibility of it. We are still stuck with the reusability factor. Even if you lose a lot of ships, you are going to do more damage to the enemy by kamikaze of a small ship into a big ship. With time you would develop a cheap unmanned ship of the appropriate mass, specialized really as a hyperspace weapon. The goal would be to hyperspace into the important bits of the larger enemy ship. You build up an army of these things and instead of a battle featuring lasers and torpedoes, it's now down to a hyperspace battle.

    The rebels are always out-numbered and out-gunned. The weaponization of this technology reduces the threat of the large scale enemy ship. You could say it was smart of RJ to figure this out and use it, but now we are going to expect it. How do future directors deal with RJ opening Pandora's box. Sure the evolution of technology in wars is natural and vital to success, but in our fantasy world how does JJ deal with space battles after RJ's novel use of technology meant for travel.
     
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  7. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    I think there are some other factors that go into this situation that haven’t been able to be applied elsewhere. The Raddus, for example, was said to have had experimental shields that factored into the collision. Experimental, which means they likely aren’t in mass production yet and can’t equip to other ships.

    the shields also factor in that, if it wasn’t for them and the diversion of hitting the transports, the ship probably would’ve been destroyed before it could jump if it was being fired on.

    We also have to factor in the actual challenge of landing that hit. As was stated previously, you have the factor of ship size between the Raddus and the Supremacy, and while the debris did take out a bunch of Star Destroyers, the Supremacy was still mostly intact. If anything, that’s a slight on the First Order for lining up that way, but likely the Supremacy had the range and Hux wanted it to get the eventually easy kill.

    Add into the aiming that, at that distance and speed, the slightest miscalculation would’ve been a miss. The navcomputers are designed to prevent jumps to obstacles, which means Holdo had to manually do the jump.

    as well as distance. It seems that the ships were at just the right distance for the impact to still be before the official hyperspace (the point of entry seems complicated). It’s unknown when this was considered as a possibility. Hux and the FO begin to figure out what she’s attempting just before she jumps, but if it was never even mentioned before, either it was a recent discovery, or the different pieces of the tactic were weighed and determined to not be worth it.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Sir please take your logic elsewhere. This is the internet
     
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  9. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    So, just following up on some other points I read, but mobile won’t let me edit in quotes for some reason..


    i really enjoyed listening to Rian’s behind the scene called “Balance of the Force”, where he talked about his approach to the Force in the film and tried to strip away the super-power aspect of it. He said when trying to figure out Luke’s confrontation and dipping into Force lore and even some Legends stuff, he wanted the interaction to be like the Force Bond between Rey and Ben, a form of communication. He wanted to explore what would be said and done if Luke was just able to talk to Ben. It was cool to hear him talk about his approach for that.

    and, i couldn’t this one remark as a quote, But to those I’ve heard say this, I have a question:
    So, I’ve learned how this felt with Into the Spider-verse’s version of Peter Parker. I really disliked it a lot, but came to at least appreciate it from a story perspective, in that it worked for the story they wanted to tell (I still don't like it, but I just now visualize it as the Peter from the first trilogy as opposed to 616 comics Peter, much easier when dealing with actual multiple iterations of a character and a world that actually has a multiverse).

    with that said, if you didn’t 100% like it cause of how one views Luke, from the perspective of the story, if one temporarily sets aside how they personally felt, do you think it works for what they wanted to tell?
     
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  10. Darth Goon

    Darth Goon Clone Commander

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    Except you don't take a billion Star Wars Fans who are now in their 40's and 50's, and have grown up with Luke Skywalker and crew as their heroes and ask them to temporarily set aside how they felt, in order for Rian Johnson to the tell the story he wants to tell. There is a reason TLJ made $700,000,000 less than TFA.
     
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  11. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    Yes, second films in a Star Wars trilogy always make less than the first.

    Also, TFA was a huge deal. Everyone and their mother was excited to see it, it was the first Star Wars movie to come out around the holiday season (which proved to be an effective strategy), and it was the first time in over 30 years that most people would be seeing the OT cast again.

    TLJ was the third Star Wars film in two years and didn’t have the same cultural significance as TFA; of course it didn’t do as well.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Then explain how Ant-Man and the Wasp made over 2 BILLION dollars less than Endgame?!?!
     
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i'm okay with it. so are most of the fans my age that i know.
    maybe it's not what anyone would have expected, but i'm okay with getting a story i don't expect ~ especially when in some ways it's even better.

    @Darth Goon & ALL: let's not go down the path of Box Office again.
    there is a thread for that and this is not it. : D​
     
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  14. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    I'm in my 40s, have been a huge SW fan since the early 80s, and Luke was always favorite character, and even my role model growing up. I absolutely adore how Johnson interpreted the character in TLJ, his vulnerability, his fallibility, his pain, and also his turn around and his rising out of the darkness. This is such an incredibly powerful arc for Luke and, to me at least, it feels like the franchise has more weight and consequences and relevance now; stuff became real and matters in the setting now, and there are darkness and conflict in it that you can’t just swing a lightsaber at. Had they made Luke into a super-Luke to please the fist-pumping popcorn viewer, the franchise would descend into a stupid Michael Bay-level action spectacle with exactly zero relevance and weight.


    No, The Last Jedi is a fantastic step for Star Wars, and a beacon of hope for the franchise’s future as a relevant genre of pop-culture art.
     
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  15. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    It's always great to see a role model fail and then recover. Why? Because it means it's okay for you to fail too. Because you will. You will fail at something at some point and how you handle failure is what matters. And Luke didn't handle it well because no one taught him that...until that sly green elf shows back up and puts Luke in his place....again. And then Luke recovers from his failures to be the beacon he always could be.
     
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  16. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I am 52 years old (ok 53 in a couple weeks) and Star Wars has always been a deep part of my life. Hell my 1st son was born on the anniversary of Star Wars release, total fluke he was 2 weeks early, still seems pre-ordained doesnt it. My wife finally gave in on my 3rd son and let his middle name be Lucas. So dont tell me how I felt about Luke Skywalker as a hero. He was a hero because of his journey and because he was a human character. JJ Abrams made him an elderly human character according to George Lucas vision of old Luke. That wasnt a typo JJ Abrams did it, Rian Johnson just put it on screen. Watched TFA again yesterday and it is clear Luke ran away. He did not go looking for some ancient secret. Ancient secret for what? To defeat Kylo? To defeat Snoke and the First Order. If he was so powerful he didnt need an ancient secret to beat Empire lite.

    Luke was never the Thanos or Superman Luke that some thought he should be in the ST. That would have made an incredibly boring and cookie cutter trilogy. Remember Luke didnt beat the Emperor in ROTJ through mystical force powers. It was about loving his father, the father he barely knew, that he was willing to sacrifice himself. Which in turn caused the light in his father to take over. It wasnt some video game leveling up. To me it would have always been wrong to portray Luke as some great Jedi Master post ROTJ. He didnt have lore and teachers to assist him. He was the start of something new, not the god that so many wanted him to be. That simply doesnt make sense.
     
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Found this for you

    Star-Wars-AT-AT-Walker.jpg
     
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  18. Rodney-2187

    Rodney-2187 Guest

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    I'll join in!

    I'm about to be 47 years old. Star Wars is among my earliest memories and I feel fortunate to have grown up with Star Wars from the beginning.

    I had mixed feelings about the prequels. Many parts of them were immensely enjoyable, but other parts were like nails on a chalkboard to me. I didn't see a light at the end of the tunnel. I thought that would be the style of Star Wars from then on. After the Disney purchase, I was both happy and worried. I had no idea what Star Wars without Lucas would be like. Once I saw that behind-the-scenes sizzle reel from comic con, I knew everything was going to be fine.

    The new movies actually softened my views on the prequels. I think of them as something unique from that time. I see Star Wars differently now. I believe each generation will have their own Star Wars. I can still enjoy the Originals, remember fondly they hype around the prequels, and look forward with anticipation for these new movies.

    What will we get next? I have no idea, but my advice would be for anyone not enjoying these movies currently to just wait. Star Wars isn't going anywhere. Someone else will make more Star Wars movies and those will have a new style. Perhaps then you can look back and see things in these current movies you can enjoy.

    I know we old-timers like to think it's all about us, but it's a different world now. Star Wars has to evolve somewhat and there will be growing pains. It's not going to be the same, and that's ok. It makes those Originals even more special and the anticipation stronger for what comes next.
     
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  19. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    Oh man, looking at the responses, wow I feel young for once. Only 26.

    I could make a similar argument for Lord and Miller’s Peter B. Parker. Many grew up with a Peter that likely would not fall to the point he did in the film as well.

    But it is reasonable to ask that. Why? Because Johnson may have viewed things differently, maybe he didn’t want the paragon, or to, as others point out, show it’s ok to fail and get back up, even if sometimes it does take a bit longer. Luke was close to the age of some of those fans now, and how many of them might be cynical or struggling? How many felt like they failed others and couldn’t get back up? How many may have had a relatable journey to Luke in TLJ?

    granted, those are speculative questions, but sometimes worth answering. Clearly, TLJ Luke connected with people, and was loved for, honestly, not being almost the full super power he was in post RotJ legends.
     
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  20. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Jedi Commander

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    What’s ironic is TLJ won’t be on Disney+ tell Dec 26th, 2019. The Rise of Skywalker comes out Dec 18-20th. So unless you have Netflix, you must rent or buy TLJ digitally if you plan to do a ST marathon before seeing TRoS.
     
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