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The Last Jedi - General Movie Discussion

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DarthSnow, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    To your point about Rey not facing any complications, I would argue that the entirety of the Jedi's mythos and history falling onto the shoulders of a 19 year old with minimal experience is a big complication. You can maybe say that Rian didn't hammer that home enough, but it wasn't exactly hidden either. At the end of the film, Rey IS the last Jedi and the fate and future of the galaxy is very much in her hands.

    I don't completely disagree with you, a lot of RJ's answers didn't necessarily raise new complications, but I don't think they have to. It shouldn't be the job of the final chapter to wrap EVERYTHING up, you need a sense of finality in the separate too. When The Last Jedi ends, there's definitely a sense that there's far more left to do and I think at that moment it becomes less about the individuals and more about the ultimate cause. Rey is no longer searching for the answer to the question she's had for most of her life. Finn is fully committed to the resistance after only fighting for Rey up until that point And Poe becomes the leader for EVERYONE instead of just himself.

    We aren't left on a cliffhanger but we're far from an overall solution. We're still in the middle of the war with the resistance is desperate need of allies. Rey has just become the last in a lineage of hundreds of thousands and Kylo is now free of his shackles. THE Supreme Leader of The First Order who is hungrier than ever for total domination. There are a ton of avenues that can be taken from there.
     
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  2. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Jedi Commander

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    There's certainly new psychological weight on the characters going forward. Now, Rey is the Jedi and Kylo is the First Order. But in terms of plot, what is propelling us into the next film? There's the vague need to defeat the bad guy, but there's no particulate plot complications left to solve.

    Again, if TROS was simply "Rey kills Kylo," would there be anything left to tie up?
     
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  3. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    A lot of people were under the impression that Kylo wasn't being completely honest with Rey when he revealed her parentage. Obviously nothing compared to the Vader/Luke reveal but still something. You are right, there isn't anything to propel us to the next film ala ESB but I think what we're left with is enough. Even if it is just, "Rey kills Kylo" you can very much make an entire film out of that and it feels like you're trying to downplay that.

    You're obviously not alone in your opinion, and I'm not necessarily referring to you when I say what I'm about to say, it's more or less a generalization but I think Luke's death, the specifications of it at least have a lot to do with people thinking that there was nothing left for TROS. It really feels like the end of something and that whatever is left is "not as important".
     
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  4. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Jedi Commander

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    And again, I really do love TLJ as its own film. It has some of the deepest emotional moments in the Saga and it's a great meta-commentary on the series. It feels like the first Star Wars film to really deal with the moral ambiguity of the prequel-era Jedi Order. And honestly, I think TLJ's conclusions are really powerful for today's world. There's a way to learn from failure without killing the past entirely. Legends have value even if they're flawed.
     
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  5. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel General

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    There was no real "vague" need to defeat the TESB emperor at the end of TESB; it was "save Han Solo" and (maybe) how do I deal with the fact that Vader's my father and that my elders lied/kept quiet about some things to me.

    The emperor is not an endgame boss fight, and even if he was, there needs to be some reason to relate to the guy. Or an understanding of how the character operates.

    Look at it from TESB's perspective, since TLJ is basically (a slightly smarter version of TESB in some areas) inverted film of TESB's visuals, themes, characters, and plot, with some incorporation from ANH and ROTJ and prequel knowledge.

    Along with Rey kills Kylo, Kylo's emotional state, mirroring Vader's. His interactions with Rey are what would move the plot along, and some of those interactions pay off.

    Both ANH and TESB Vader and TFA and TLJ Kylo are interesting because they are cutthroat- until they are upended by the Emperor, although even in TROS, Kylo says that he's not interested in following the Emperor as a lackey (smart man).

    Rey is the Jedi, but still an emerging Jedi- I assume, with the knowledge of the sacred Jedi texts.

    There's still the need to show Poe as a leader in action and have Finn be a Resistance soldier (and even Finn may need to learn when it is a good time to fight from Rose's intervention).

    If we want to be technical about TESB, it's whole premise was: "Another adventure for the rebels with familiar characters" (the TESB trailer). Also, TESB's main premise in the film itself was: "Freedom to the galaxy? You were wrong". In addition, TESB - The Empire STRIKES BACK, is the idea of the Empire being so vicious with its retaliation, that it tried to wipe out the whole Rebellion, even sending out Probe droids to fish out/find the Rebels' base camp.

    A lot of ideas in TESB were extensions of what happened in ANH- small moments- Luke becoming a Jedi, Han's tease of a relationship with the princess, twisting information that had been confirmed in ANH, etc. Who says that couldn't be case with TROS?
     
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  6. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Rebelscum

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    Anyone else notice the Holdo Maneuver not only destroys the First Order fleet but also blows the handcuffs right off of Finn and Rose?

    I hadn’t noticed it before but Finn and Rose are both handcuffed in front of their bodies and are kicked to the ground face first for the Executioner Stormtroopers. Then magically after the Holdo Maneuver neither one of them are still in handcuffs! Whoops. I’m sure others here have noticed but it made me laugh recently - such a goofy mistake / oversight in the film.
     
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  7. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    I didn't know where to put this, and didn't think it was exactly worthy of its own thread, so I'm putting it here...

    I had a couple thoughts about Ahch-To recently, both about its twin suns. Interested in what you guys think.
    1. Does it make sense for a planet covered mostly in oceans to have two suns? Would the planet and its oceans be able to sustain that, instead of drying up into something... well, more like Tatooine? I'm not much of one for astronomical properties so I'm not trying to be cheeky and critical of the decision to do that, I really just don't know. But it was more a side thought of this:
    2. I think I almost would have preferred that in Luke's last moments he'd imagined that second sun, recalling in his last moments his home world and all he had come from. It never had to be explained or anything in film, we just simply saw the image through his own eyes and that was it. And yet at the same time it was as if the galaxy, with those two suns dropping to the horizon, was telling him that it was okay. And it would continue to be okay. So yeah, I don't know... any one else have some random thoughts on this?
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Sure. The issue is proximity. Earth, for example, is positioned at an orbit actually referred to as ‘The Goldilocks Zone’ (or the circumstellar habitable zone if you prefer). It’s not too far and too close. It’s juuuuuust right.

    As long as the planet isn’t too close to the stellar bodies for the liquid to evaporate, or too far to freeze, should be fine.
     
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  9. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Yep, there's no problem here. Proximity is just one of many factores determining how wet a planet can be, the primary other factor being atmosphere. Just take our own solar system; Mars is further out than the Earth, but Earth is wet and Mars is really, really dry. That there are two suns just means the planet needs to have stronger atmosphere (and magnetic field) compared to Earth's. (Now, there ARE interesting problems to discuss concerning what a stronger shielding and atmosphere means to a planet, but this is Star Wars so physics are always optional).


    Oh, yes, absolutely! To be honest, I hadn't even considered that the twin suns that Luke sees on Ahch-To could be the ACTUALLY suns of Ahch-To. Up until now, I've just assumed they were Luke's dying vision of Tatooine's sunset; I hadn't even considered any alternative to this :)
     
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  10. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    Makes sense, wasn't really thinking about distance. Thanks guys!

    So while I have your attention answer me this. Should you be able to see your shadow on Twin Sunned planets?? I'm guessing the light source is so great and so far away that it really just acts as one light source, so you would likely still have a shadow, but....
    Just know that if you don't humor me we are going to continue to discuss fictional astrophysics until I discover a cool phenomenon resulting from binary suns.
    :p
     
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  11. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    Wait... Achc-To had twin suns...!?

    Ugh... right up until this moment I thought that is pretty much what happened and was my interpretation of the scene. I had no idea Achc-To had two suns. So yeah... I dunno... maybe I preferred not knowing. Thanks for ruining TLJ for me!

    Do we ever see that it has twin suns anywhere in the film other than at Luke's final moment? If not then I think I'll choose to treat supplementary details as non-canon, which I mostly do anyway. Only the films are canon! I like my interpretation of the scene better :)

    Having said that, real-life truth tells us that "over 50 percent of all Sun-like stars are in binary pairs" so we should have no issue with at least one more world in Star Wars having twin suns!
     
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  12. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    According to Wookiepedia, Ahch-To has 2 suns and 1 moon. Which changes my perspective of the scene because I thought he was imagining the twin suns from Tatooine

    atcto.jpg

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ahch-To
     
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  13. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    [​IMG]

    For what its worth, I'm just gonna roll with this for my head canon as well.

    Up until I posed the question I didn't even know myself, I had to check with Wookieepedia, which notes its source as the TLJ Visual Dictionary.

    200901-00.PNG
     
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  14. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    It is totally possible to cast multiple shadows; if you're ever on a football field at night when the floodlights are on, you'll see multiple shadows stretching out beneath you in various directions.

    With multiple suns, however, it all depends on how the planet and suns orbit relative to one another. If the suns spin closely together, and your planet orbits their common relative point of gravity, the suns could possibly act as one single light source, or two light sources close together givin you double somewhat overlapping shadows. Now, if, however, your planet and one sun forms a unit that either orbits or is orbited by a second sun, you will throw two shadows whose orientation to you depends on where the suns are in your sky at any given moment. (Such a world would likely suffer fantastical gravities and land-mass tidal shifts and the like... except in Star Wars, of course, 'cause physics are for idiots ;) )
     
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  15. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    Wait, am I the only one who didn’t think that the twin suns were some sort of vision? I always just assumed that they were real and never though anything of it.

    There was also this line from the comic adaptation which further led me to believe that it wasn’t just Luke’s imagination.

    upload_2020-9-1_9-28-7.jpeg
     
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  16. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Personally, I prefer that it is a vision, as then Luke's death becomes a personal revelation to him, which is also conceptually connected to his cause of death through strainous projection and his ascension to Force Ghost-hood.

    If it's just a pretty sunset -- one that Luke must've witnessed scores or hundreds of times before -- then the impact is greatly lessened and the scene doesn't mean that much apart from being visually stunning. No, regardless of Ahch-To's actual number of suns, to me Luke is definitely having a death-bed vision of his story coming full circle and his redemption achieved. #TLJisJustSoDamnGood
     
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  17. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    I was surprised when I first saw TLJ as I wasn't expecting it. But it all made so much sense to me, whether it was literal or imagined, that I really never even questioned it until recently.

    The comic is almost literally what my brain goes through when I watch that scene, so yeah -- mission accomplished!

    I both agree and disagree here. I've noticed the sun setting countless times, but I can only recall a handful that I actually watched and took in. If that makes sense.

    But yes this I can entirely agree on.
    :)
     
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  18. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Attuned

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    Ahh it's okay :) I was kind of exaggerating my feelings. It will take a lot more than this to 'ruin' TLJ for me!
     
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  19. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    It’s funny that so many people think that the twin suns were a part of a vision because the leaks from before the movie came out described the scene as Luke’s meditation taking him back to his home of Tatooine. Which, from a certain point of view, is what happened. :p
     
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  20. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    I think you will find that leaks are very poor indication of the artistic quality and emotional power of an upcoming Star Wars movie is going to be. I wouldn't put that much stock in the interpretations put forth by leaks, really.

    Also, I'm not entirely sure what your post is supposed to achieve, other than to ridicule other people's interpretation and indicate that their take-away form the movie are inferior to your own? In any case, I maintain that there's more powerful moment there if Luke has a death-bed vision. Good for you if you disagree, sir.
     
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