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The Leia Conundrum

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by HothLeia, Jan 15, 2018.

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What is the best way to handle the Leia Conundrum in Episode 9?

  1. Leia is alive but elsewhere (diplomacy, in seclusion, hidden Jedi Temple, etc.)

    5 vote(s)
    7.4%
  2. Force Ghost Luke reveals more about Leia

    3 vote(s)
    4.4%
  3. Recast another actress to play Leia.

    5 vote(s)
    7.4%
  4. Leia is still alive and seen via hologram/CGI.

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  5. The new film is set 3-5 years in the future and Leia has already passed on well before the new film.

    19 vote(s)
    27.9%
  6. Maz Kanata fills the role Leia was intended to play.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Introduce a new older character who is alive for the duration of the film.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Begin Episode 9 with Leia's funeral

    21 vote(s)
    30.9%
  9. Leia's death is mentioned in the opening crawl.

    11 vote(s)
    16.2%
  10. Other (Comments)

    2 vote(s)
    2.9%
  1. duckface

    duckface Rebel Official

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    I honestly can't imagine them killing Leia off screen during the actual movie.
     
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  2. remiel6

    remiel6 Rebel Official

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    There is no comfortable or right way to do this. This is always going to be the lesser of two evils. The right way to do it involves a final confrontation between Kylo and Leia, only we can't have that.
     
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  3. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel Official

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    I have said the exact same thing. Finish Leia's story. To do other wise is a disservice to the character and to Carrie.
     
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  4. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    How does this really fix anything? Leia then becomes a force ghost and so is still present and so still needs to be recast or making her a force ghost becomes another way to have a cop out because what is the point of such a thing if she is still functionally dead or are we just putting the character away for a while till we have the stomach to do what should be done right now and recast her?

    Not bad thinking as a way to try to thread the needle in some way but it feels ultimately pointless to me.

    What makes folks believe that Carrie would even want Leia killed off if she couldn't portray her in a situation like this?

    From the options I keep seeing no way even the die hards think offing Leia best serves the story, they are offering compromises.

    I don't get even the most remote idea that there is any care about what best serves Leia.

    I honestly begin to believe that some (certainly not all) are actually pushing to serve themselves for the easiest path to closure and to move on.

    Leia needs to continue because any other option is a cheap and flimsy copout that will eventually be hollow all around for years to come.

    The only real options are recasting or CGI necromancy which I just don't think we are there yet technologically.

    Thoughtful post for sure but I think still falls short of honoring Carrie, Leia, or Star Wars.
     
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  5. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    I disagree. There's been some good posts in here about ways to portray Leia's Death respectfully and and actually use it as a vehicle of the plot.

    Imagine Leia being layed to rest in what's left of Alderaan. A shipboard service. Very heartfelt. Then Kylo Ren shows up in a Dreadnought. Hux reports they're ready to fire but Ben tells him to hold off. He's just there to pay his respects. This only makes Hux think he's weak and catalyzes Hux attempting a coup. Since by this point the First Order is spread all over the Galaxy, it becomes a galactic Civil War, and agents of the Resistance are given the task of trying to arrange it so that neither side wins and they can take over. In the mean time, life death is contemplated by all the characters. Heroes ponder on what makes a meaningful life, and a meaningful Death (Resistance is on the rocks still, and as many as they recruit, they often lose). Rey discovers Force Ghosts, and Ben is haunted by them (Luke and Anakin in particular). Poe is terribly discouraged, since he's lost Leia, who was his mentor, and starts getting scared of losing people. Finn continues in his altruistic suicidal tendencies and his friends have to fight to keep him alive. Kylo Renn starts looking for Plaguis' techniques on preserving life. etc. etc.

    See, wasn't even that hard. Imagine what an actual writer could accomplish.
     
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  6. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    If that is something that appeals to you I'm not going to beat you up about it but sorry I just don't think much of it to be honest with you.
    Hux better have a better scheme than he has shown yet to go toe to toe with Kylo.
    I also don't see why the rebels then want to maintain some stalemate.

    If Carrie was alive and ready to perform these machinations wouldn't be even slightly preferred and instead forwarding these ideas as seriously the path forward would bring on gnashing of teeth and brimstone and fire.

    Just because you can tell some story doesn't mean it is the best story or a good one or better yet even an acceptable one. It certainly doesn't mean you have done best by the character or the actor.

    You give me a live Carrie but dead Leia proof story and I'm fine but it should be something that you know in your heart that you would look her in the eyes and tell her this story is where we want to go and we are going to kill you off screen so we can jump into a funeral to kick things off.

    Sorry. I don't buy that not even a single bit. Your goal is to write Leia out and everything else is bargaining to come to the least worthless and counterproductive way to do.

    The endpoint is not the best story, the best thing for Star Wars going forward the best treatment of Leia, or the best way to honor Carrie but how to flush Leia. Point blank period.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 10, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 10, 2018 ---
    Sure we can. You just do it.
     
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  7. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    I think Leia's story was given closure when she told the resistance to follow Poe...it was the character's way of handing over the reins of leadership....I'm uncomfortable with the idea of recasting as I cannot see any other actress take over the role which is now synonymous with Carrie Fisher.

    However, I'm all for seeing some original trilogy characters return and given guidance to the Poe (and Connix), who I assume will be the leaders of the resistance in episode 9. Other than Lando, a good candidate would be Wedge Antilles.

    - Wedge is like a father to Snap Wexley, so he can easily be brought into the story;
    - He was a brilliant pilot who helped blow up the second death star and also a rebel leader....so would be able to connect with Poe and give him guidance.
    - Denis Lawson is a great actor and his appearing at SWC 2017 points to his still feeling a connection to SW. (not to mention being Ewan McGregor's uncle)

    The downside is that Wedge cannot handle any Leia and Kylo interaction in case they want to redeem him...for this we could have either Luke or Lando interact with Kylo or have Kylo find the recording Leia made at the end of the Bloodline, where she wept and explained why she never revealed that he was Vader's grandson.

    At the end of the day Luke is Leia's twin brother and Lando is Han's old friend so its plausible to have either of them end up in an emotional scene with Kylo about Han and Leia.
     
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  8. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    Any friend of your parents or an aunt or an uncle can just sub right in for your mother or father?

    I have never had an aunt or an uncle that influence wise are even in the same neighborhood as my mother was and none of their friends are close.
    Here I'd say if Chewbacca can't do it then what is Lando going to do? Assumably, Chewie would have been almost a big of an influence as Han and clearly even Han wasn't Leia who he couldn't fire on but he found a way to run that lightsaber through him up close and personal even if it shook him to the core.

    I find it very difficult to believe folks really believe in some easy substitute for a man's mother. Anyone who has lost their's probably wouldn't easily throw such things around.

    I sense rationalizations to justify flushing Leia like a goldfish.
     
  9. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    Well, a mother's twin brother or a man who grew up with one's father is a lot easier to accept than seeing a completely new face playing the role of Leia, especially since we have associated a particular actress with that character for 40 years. And if you look at canon, Chewie wasn't around post Endor. He went home to his wife and child, so I don't see him having a profound connection to Ben, unlike Luke who actually spent time with him (even more than his parents did),

    Maybe it means nothing to you and I respect that, but I find it easier to accept Luke or Lando being the people to take on Leia's part rather than a recast.
     
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  10. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    What is easiest often isn't what is best. Luke can't sub for Leia with Kylo, they have their own messed up relationship that we've already seen and that is a square peg in a round hole as much as any in the saga.

    It makes no sense in context of the story and instead is a bandaid strictly predicted on being related and ignoring the existing relationships of the characters and certainly the differences in the influence of different people in our lives in general.

    I find it pretty strange to equate a friend of a patracided father or an uncle who is actually the only person the character hates with ones mother and the only person he has shown the inability to act heinously on?

    It just doesn't ring true or connect as narrative. This dictates a very narrow path to telling a decent story and an even tighter one to a good one.
    You cannot transfer your comfort with Lando and Luke to Kylo.
     
  11. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    First, I never said at any point that having Luke and Lando take over aspects of Leia's role was easy or that Luke and Lando are an apples for apples substitute for Leia.

    But that being said, I feel they can still make a good story with Luke and Lando taking over Leia's part in the story. Maybe you find it strange or that it doesn't ring true as a narrative but I feel it can work as I am looking at Leia's role not just as Kylo's mother but also the leader of the resistance.

    For me, Luke saying- See you around signaled the future interactions Luke would have with Kylo in episode 9, especially since episode 8 barely explored their relationship anyway and it still needs resolution. As for Lando, the Aftermath novels mention his picking gifts for baby Ben Solo....so again, I see him playing a bigger role in Ben Solo's life than a character like Chewbacca. If anything, maybe Leia's death might make Kylo question his own actions.

    Now Kylo apart, I think any guidance Leia has to give Rey or Poe can be done through holos, voice recordings, Wedge Antilles and Luke... so again that aspect of Leia's role can be handled.

    I am against a recast because I feel it makes no sense for another actress to play Leia's part in what was supposed to e "Leia's movie" after Carrie Fisher has been synonymous with Leia for 40 years. It makes the fact that Carrie Fisher will never have that movie all the more painful seeing some other actress get it in her stead.

    I would rather they re-write the story and give her a heroic death, which unites disparate groups in the fight against the first order.
     
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  12. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    That's rather the point. Carrie is in fact dead. If she weren't we'd be thrilled to have her but she's gone. What we (those of us opposed to recasting) don't want is to just slap someone else in her place and go on like nothing happened. We want to see her get a send off that actually confronts and deals with her death, not just covering for it. Show us a story that reflects this loss and respects it.
     
    #52 Mitch Pelon, Feb 12, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  13. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    How was Carrie's passing not reflected and respected? Did you miss celebration? All kind of interviews with people that worked with her and loved her? What about the memoriam at the end of Last Jedi?

    Nobody anywhere has failed to respect Carrie. Most grieved her loss, I did and it hit me hard as she has been part of and an influence on many of our lives for decades.

    I call BS on the accusation of trying to cover up anything some people simply disagree (in my case strongly) that flushing the character like a goldfish is the best way to honor Carrie and the efforts she made to reprise Leia, the character she helped to bring to us, or the story to which so much of her time and hard work was invested.
     
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  14. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    What I'm saying is we want her death shown and respected in the actual film. The little credits blurb was great and all, but we'd actually like it incorporated into the story of Star Wars.

    Characters die. Killing them is just fine so long as it's done meaningfully. Having her death set the tone of the movie and define the story would give it appropriate meaning.
     
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  15. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    I completely agree.

    Look at the unceremonious way Han's death was not even addressed in TLJ beyond a - Why did you kill him line. Now we're getting the funeral scene in the TLJ novelisation- but I say its a little too late. Also, Ackbar was blown off into space, not unlike a goldfish being flushed away, and all he got is a small one line mention before being brushed off...hell, Admiral Raddus of Rogue One got a better final battle scene and he isn't even a fan favourite.

    For me Leia and Carrie Fisher are the same. Carrie worked hard for the character and having some other actress swoop in and play the role (and giving her a more substantial part than what Carrie Fisher ever had in any of the episodes) is undermining this completely.

    I think the best thing is for Leia to pass away between episodes 8 and 9 while doing something heroic, with her death having an impact on and influencing the other characters.
     
    #55 panki, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
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  16. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    https://movieweb.com/star-wars-9-leia-death-scene-funeral-last-jedi/

    Based on this, we may still get Leia’s death on screen. If she’s finally succumbing to injuries from her time in the vacuum then they can use unused TLJ footage of her on life support.

    She can also still be a major part of the Story. Resistance members can be struggling to keep her alive, both by medical intervention, but also by trying to keep her from First Order assassins (Knights of Ren maybe?) looking to finish the job. Rey could try to keep her from dying with the Force. Or Ben for that matter. Maybe they’ll team up one more time to try and find the holocron of Dartg Plagueis. Ooh! Maybe, rather than being Plaguis himself, Snoke is someone that plaguis actually saved. He was brutally and mortally injured and Plaguiss made it so that those injuries wouldn’t kill him (not exactly healing him, but denying him death). Hence how messed up he is.
     
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  17. Sparafucile

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    No answer will feel quite right. It's a scenario where you do the best you can. I think many fans will dislike the decision made, but at the same time I hope fans will give it a pass, understanding that it's an impossible situation to appeal to everyone.

    What if we have Poe walk out of a hospital (presumably Leia) room holding a note meant for Kylo. Years have gone by so they now have to find Rey as the only person who can conceivably reach Kylo so he can get his mothers final words. It's the resistance's only hope.
     
  18. zazeron

    zazeron Rebelscum

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    rebels answered this question...people from the cosmic force can still influence the living via spirit guides and Kanan was indeed a loth wolf. so maybe have ben solo go to lothal and meet one...called "organa"
     
  19. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    I really think it’s completely possible to make Leia an integral part of the story, even if she’s not in the film.

    The Last Jedi and its novel establish that Kylo Ren has a soft spot for Leia. We see him spare her life in the film, and the novel explains that when they had their Force connection in this moment, he felt that she wasn’t angry; all he felt from her was love and sadness. Previously, whenever he spoke of the resentment he had toward his parents, it was always directed at Han and how he was a horrible father. He never mentioned Leia. I also read an article from The Hollywood Reporter that claimed Leia and Kylo Ren’s confrontation was ultimately supposed to be a huge part of Episode IX, which makes sense because she was supposed to be at the forefront of the film, and both Original Trilogy characters at the forefront of their respective Sequel Trilogy films had some sort of altercation with Ben.

    I really think Leia was supposed to be the turning point, the thing that finally redeemed Ben and allowed him to return to the light. Leia’s death could ultimately be what motivates his change of heart, and I think it could be an important moment in both Rey and Poe’s character arcs, too. It could also allow the Resistance to rebuild itself. If Leia dies and there is a funeral, it gives an excuse for all the Resistance’s allies (the ones that failed to come to their aid during the Battle of Crait) to unite because, as Finn said, people believe in Leia. It would also allow characters like Lando to rejoin the fight in a meaningful way that doesn’t feel forced.

    Not to mention, beginning Episode IX with a funeral of some sort is, in my opinion, the ultimate form of closure for the character, and also allows her to have her moment. I think Episode IX should and needs to revolve around her, as it was intended, but just in a different way than what was initially planned. Writing her out of the story completely or recasting her is doing a disservice to the actress and the character.

    I like the idea of her becoming one with the Force the way Luke did. We know he did train her a little bit, but we don’t know what he trained her in, so it’s possible that he taught her how to be a Force ghost. Perhaps her ghost will haunt Ben in some way? (They could even just use audio clips or something from her.) If they go that route, though, I just want one shot of her as a Force ghost with Luke and potentially Han, because I still think we need a reunion between the original trio in some capacity.
     
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  20. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebel General

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    Luke and Leia stated in TLJ that Ben was beyond saving for either of them. If anyone is to redeem him (not that he has to be) it would be Rey. Like it or not.
     
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