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SPOILER The Mystery of Snoke Has Been Revealed!!

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Himmel, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. Himmel

    Himmel Rebel Official

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  2. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    My take is this:

    After his unexpected defeat in the Battle of Endor, Palpatine (after cheating death through techniques he learned from Plagueis) retreated to the Dark Side world of Exogol. Here he used the dark energy to sustain his life and plotted his return. Prior to his defeat, Palpatine had concocted a back up plan so that, in case the unthinkable happened, what was left of his Empire could eventually seek him out in the Unknown Regions. He also still retained considerable resources and used them to build a new army that he'd hold back until the time was right.

    But Palpatine needed someone to do his dirty work. And perhaps a vessel to eventually drain of life or take over. And so, using the severed hand of Luke Skywalker and his own DNA, Palpatine made a clone - Snoke. But it was corrupted. Sidious learned why one cannot clone a Force user. It is, to coin a phrase, "unnatural" and the original clone could not be sustained. And so Palpatine had to create several Snoke's to rule the First Order - a tool to destroy the Republic and Jedi.

    Soon after Snoke's creation, Palpatine realised it wasn't viable. But a solution presented itself in the form of Ben Solo. And so Sidious used Snoke to corrupt Ben, with the plan to eventually siphon his power or use him as a vessel. And that's where we are today:

    Kylo Ren is too conflicted to be a good enough outlet or source for the power Palpatine requires - and so, after Kylo eventually rejects the Dark Side (by refusing to kill Rey once again), Palpatine turns to yet another back up plan, his granddaughter Rey and reveals her true identity to try and turn her - the climax of the film where Rey, inspired by the Jedi of old, will reject and destroy Palpatine (again - sigh).

    Note: It would be interesting if we learn that Palpatine and maybe Plagueis were indeed behind Anakin's creation and put him on Tatooine as a slave to sow the seeds of darkness within him - this would then explain why Palpatine ensured Rey had the life she had prior to leaving Jakku.
     
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  3. ITG

    ITG Rebel Official

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    Nah.
     
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  4. bferr1972

    bferr1972 Force Sensitive

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    @Himmel, haven't read the spoiler above. Just wondering, is it legit? Because I sure would like to see this line of criticism we've been hearing for four years now finally closed-out...
     
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  5. Himmel

    Himmel Rebel Official

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    In time we will know.;)
     
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    My biggest take is... It's great to see @master_shaitan !

    I wonder if we're going to find out Palpatine was working with cloners on a variety of different projects. This could explain what's going on in The Mandalorian. If Palpatine had all these powerful force users DNA he could have been manipulating them the very same way he controlled the clones with Order 66.
     
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  7. Perdu

    Perdu Rebel General

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    This would be a great idea IF Snoke was Plagiues. I can't think of a better f-u by a Sith apprentice than to be make clones of your dead master and have them forever doing your bidding. Very Sithy imo.

    But, alas, I am sure it is more original than that and will be left open ended like Jason Ward presumes is a possibility.
     
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  8. Disneylandfan4life

    Disneylandfan4life Rebel General

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    This could very well be true. But with all the leaks out there and the guy in the video not citing sources is just bad journalism, added in the very clickbait title just for views. If it was titled as a Theory this would all be fine, but the guy is trying to act like he's 100% in the know and this is definitive proof. And then for him to say in the video that peoples theories either are good or "suck" in his words, that's also not very cool. Overall just not a fan of this video even if it is true.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 2, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 2, 2019 ---
    https://makingstarwars.net/2019/12/...skywalker-answers-the-final-mystery-of-snoke/ he did cite some information in the article, but to come off as saying "it's 100% this" when the movie isn't out yet and we don't even know if ALL of the leaks are true or not is just shady. Very clickbait. Good if it was a theory video, bad that he's coming off as saying its 100% confirmed. :)
     
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  9. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    Sounds like JW just got done watching The Prestige.
     
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  10. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    You expect Jason Ward, the biggest source for Star Wars leaks the past 5 years to cite his sources? I really don't undestand the people who attack JW simply for his leaks. Take them with a grain of salt, but to attack the messenger is just crass.
     
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  11. Bandini

    Bandini Force Sensitive

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    And why wouldn't the Palps of Ep IX be a clone too ?

    This is endless.

    "I sensed that Vader would betray me so I put a clone there ... Mouahahahahahaha ... but I didn't sense you came over to kill me for good ... "

    Meh.
     
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  12. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Didn't Serkis and Abrams confirm Snoke was actually around during the time of the Republic and the rise of the Empire and he'd been observing events in the GFFA from the "Unknown Regions"?

    I dunno, silly as it always was, the idea of Palpatine himself merely inhabiting a cloned "vessel" in Dark Empire at least made some kind of sense.

    Who are these Snokes a clone of - an original Snoke? Just some random tall dude? Do they look all messed up like him? If so, why would a clone inherit his injuries? Where did Snoke get his powers? Do the clone Snokes have powers too? If so, how? If not, what use are they? What's the point of the whole "dark rises, and light to meet it" thing if people can just churn out Force-powerful copies which become inherently evil anyway?

    Why would Palpatine "create" Rey and clone a load of Snokes - why not just create the Snokes and leave it at that?
    Seems like his plan was to take over the galaxy, get killed but magically survive, have someone else turn Ben Solo evil and run the galaxy in his absence, then also create a child somehow conveniently outside of his control, powerful enough to kill him all over again for *reasons*.

    Doesn't that make the dark and light thing, rather than being an observation regarding the natural order of the cosmic Force, more a symptom of Palpatine just getting carried away creating random people for s**ts and giggles...
     
    #12 Get In Gear, Dec 3, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
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  13. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I wondered this myself. I was speaking to JW on Twitter and he admitted to being confused by it all as well. It might be that they have ditched the original back story (after Rian threw out what JJ had set up). In regards to the problems of cloning force users - as I suggested above, with cloning Force users being unnatural and all, it might corrupt the body and lead to inevitable death - hence why more clones of Snoke were required and Snoke looked the way he did.

    It is all very messy though.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 3, 2019 ---
    That's a name I've not heard in a....

    Oh you know the rest! Good to be back old friend! I have 2 weeks to post a years worth of pent up theories! haha
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 3, 2019 ---
    I don't think he ever expected to be "killed". But he had a plan if his empire was ever defeated. As for cloning - I find it likely that he knew you couldn't clone Force users (safely) - something that perhaps needs to be shown on screen within the 9 films to make it clear why the Jedi and Sith didn't do this before. I think he perhaps created Snoke, perhaps using Skywalker DNA, knowing he would be a corruption and likely die (which suited Palpatine anyway), to use to take over the galaxy (whilst keeping himself hidden, due to his weakness).

    In regards to cheating death, regaining his power and how Rey & kylo (dark and light) fit into this: I assume he planned to eventually take Rey as an apprentice/siphon her power if Ben Solo’s turn failed. Or just had her as a back up regardless. I don’t know if that changes anything in regards to the dark and light side rising thing...
     
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  14. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    I suppose the silliest thing for me is "granddaughter" Rey. However you cut it, it boils down to this:
    Remember that summer Palpatine fell in love... went on a few dates... got engaged... fathered that beautiful child...?
    No. I don't.
     
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  15. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Well and old, old prequel script idea was that Palpatine was Anakin's birth father.
     
  16. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Agreed. It’s absurd and nauseating in equal measure. I guess they’ve left themselves with very little options due to the poor planning of this ST story.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 3, 2019 ---
    In the sense that he created him through the Force. Not through means that some would consider to be...natural.
     
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  17. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    Exactly.
    That is totally in keeping with his characterisation throughout the previous six movies.
    "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
    He didn't think he could possibly lose.
    Now we are saying he had a back-up plan, and that plan involved... y'know... just... creating Rey.

    A back-up plan for his back-up plan...?

    The problem is, he's portrayed as an opportunist. Driven by greed. There are different degrees of "back-up plan".
    Wasn't Lucas's intention with Dooku (I forget the source, it's been a while - AOTC commentary?) that Maul's death left Palpatine without an apprentice, so he had to make a quick fix by turning a ready-trained Jedi to the dark side, which is not something he would have normally done? Then he saw Anakin's potential and started working on him. Then Vader ended up the way he did, and Palpatine was easily convinced Luke might make a superior right-hand man.
    So, yeah, you could say Dooku was Palpatine's back up for Maul, Anakin was Palpatine's back up for Dooku, and Luke was his back up for Vader - but it's all subtly different to having a genuine long-term back-up plan.

    He just got greedy. It's easy for the audience to say, yeah, he needed a back-up plan because he got beat in the end, but from his POV he had no reason to change his modus operandi - it was all working out perfectly for him right up until the point he got dumped down the Death Star reactor shaft.

    The back-up plan angle just doesn't jive with me, I'm afraid.
     
  18. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Quick thought: If Palpy has been a puppet master all this time, with Snoke being the mannequin, perhaps it isn't Snoke who uses the Force in TLJ (and elsewhere), but rather Palpy through proxy-Snoke? Just an idea.

    I admit to liking the force possession of self-clones a lot better on the surface than what the current clues seem to allude to, but I shall reserve judgment till I've seen the film.

    Side note, I expect Palpy's offspring was fathered during the Senator years or earlier, not so much during the corrupted space king years...
     
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  19. Get In Gear

    Get In Gear Force Sensitive

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    I knew about the dropped ROTS scene where Palpatine tells Anakin he "used the power of the Force to will the midichlorians to start the cell divisions that created you [...] you could almost think of me as your father.", but I didn't know there was a version considered where he literally was his father too.

    I suppose I've got used to the idea over the years that some fans really seem to love the idea that Palpatine created Anakin.
    I don't really see the appeal myself.
    For me, ROTS works best when you consider Palpatine is just manipulating Anakin; lying to him; sensing his deepest fears and telling him what he wants to hear. The whole Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise thing works because we don't ever know the truth. We just know Palpatine tells Anakin he can save Padme from certain death, then later he moves the goalposts and says it's something they can work together to figure out.
    Then his final manipulation of the truth to cement Anakin's turn: "... it seems in your anger, you killed her".
    Seems pretty clear from the movie (IMHO) that Palpatine never knew such power. Hell, Plagueis may or may not have even existed - we can't be sure from what we learn onscreen, and that - to me at least - is part of the point.

    But yeah, then the EU just takes an idea and runs with it, and suddenly the whole language of film is overturned and there is no argument because "canon" seems to trump film semiotics every time.
     
  20. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    Well that's what I meant by "birth father".
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 3, 2019, Original Post Date: Dec 3, 2019 ---
    Who's to say actually... He's the "king". He could've done anything he wanted and no one could object. Palpatine is the type of villian that could do that.
     
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