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SPECULATION The nature of the Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by DarthPilkington, Apr 20, 2017.

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What is the nature of the Force?

  1. There's a light side and a dark side

    13.2%
  2. There's a light side and a dark side, living and cosmic

    15.8%
  3. There's a light, dark, and gray side

    2.6%
  4. There's a light, dark, and gray side, living and cosmic

    2.6%
  5. There are no sides, the Force just is

    55.3%
  6. There are no sides per light/dark, but there is living and cosmic

    5.3%
  7. Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster by your side

    5.3%
  8. Other... (please share!)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    ever since the amazing TLJ teaser hit there have been a lot of people worked up about the idea of a "gray" side to the Force, and with the Jedi possibly ending.

    firstly, the Jedi won't end. "Jedi" is amazing IP and, like others have already pointed out, it would ruin the foundation of the franchise. i'd personally like to put that particular concern to bed, but i know others are still worried that Disney is about to make a massive blunder. fingers crossed i won't be eating these words come December!

    now, onto the Force:

    "the Force is an energy field created by all living things that surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together; life breeds it and makes it grow." - Obi-Wan & Yoda

    personally, i don't believe in a difference between the "dark side" and the "light side," or any other side for that matter. the Force seems to me to be a pretty homogenized thing. it exists because life exists, and as long as life exists it will continue to grow and thrive, just like life. to care for nature is practically the same as caring for the Force, as that is where the Force is derived.

    now, when someone uses the energy of the Force for their own gain, or at the cost of others, then you get what is seen as a dark side user. they are taking energy from the Force and using it for themselves which creates an imbalance in the Force. like when cancer begins to grow in your body, the imbalance slowly starts to consume and it becomes its own deadly thing.

    to be a light side user of the Force is to be a steward of living things. if you are allowing the Force and nature to be in harmony, and you act selflessly and with compassion, always striving to right imbalances should they appear, then that would be a light side user.

    what i'm saying is, like Satre puts it, existence precedes essence. there isn't a dark side boogie man lurking around trying to tempt you to the dark side. if you make the selfish or easy choice and use the Force accordingly, then you define yourself as being evil, not the Force. if you use your power and understanding of the Force to help others and to bring about harmony, then you are making that active choice and define yourself as being good. to walk away from the Force entirely, to say that no one has any business learning its secrets, doesn't mean or say anything about the Force, but it may say something about the person who said it...

    am i the only person who looks at the Force like this? i get the feeling that some people are pretty hung up over the dark and light side thing, but i never ever thought about it that way growing up.

    a quick note on cosmic and living Force: i would say that the living Force is almost like tactics whereas the cosmic Force is like strategy, if you know what i mean. the living Force is here and now, the living things around us and inside us. the cosmic Force is more of the flow of the river, or the pull of the tide. i don't feel like this is much of an issue in relation to this thread, i just wanted to tip my hat to the concept as is it pivotal in how the Force "works."

    "Always remember, your focus determines your reality." - QGJ
     
    #1 DarthPilkington, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  2. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    Whatever thoughts, intentions and actions one puts behind the force then the outcome will be. But at the same time it is a mysterious energy that a person can harness to their own good or bad like anything can be.

    The force is not good or bad. But it can be used for good or bad.
     
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  3. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    i definitely agree that the Force is not good or bad, but that it can be used in such ways.

    that's kind of my point, really: the user determines. but you're right, it is mysterious, and acts accordingly...
     
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  4. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    The force is neutral. But you can use it for good or bad.
     
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  5. Light Savior

    Light Savior Force Attuned

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    This thread can NEVER end my friend because EVERYBODY see SW and the FORCE in different ways.I ONLY can tell you.You see it in beautiful way...:).
    This will NEVER happen my friend.
    To make my post short....Star Wars is beautiful.VERY BEAUTIFUL.I see the FORCE that is GOD.The jedi are Angels.The Siths are demons.How this match our real world?Almost 100% I think...:).LOOK around you....The FORCE(GOD) is EVERYWHERE.Just feel the FORCE inside you...:).
     
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  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    If as Qui Gon explains to Yoda in The Clone Wars Animated series, that the Living Force is and has been generated by all things that have ever lived, and feeds into the Cosmic Force, than imbalance in the Cosmic Force is the result of imbalance by the manipulation of the Living Force. Interesting to note: Qui Gon never said it was Force Users that produced the Living Force, but all living things. So imbalance could be (and likely is) the result of large scale detrimental impact on life through out the galaxy not jut the presence or lack of Jedi and Sith.
     
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  7. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebel General

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    I addressed this in another thread. But the Force is Light.

    To throw Light off balance you must introduce Darkness.

    Darth Sidious suggested there was a middle, seduced Anakin, and for love Anakin turned to the Dark Side. He did not achieve a middle ground and grew increasingly corrupted, to the point of willingness to kill his own son and daughter of his most beloved, Padme.

    Then the prophecy of balance was achieved when Anakin returned and threw Sidious/Palpatine down a shaft.

    The Light triumphed. The Darkness was gone. The galaxy was free, to continue to pod race, celebrate, drink in cantinas.

    So the Force in Balance, as given by example of Episodes 1-6, is when it is aligned to Light.

    The true nature of the Force is Light.
     
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  8. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    that's a good point that it's not just Force users feeding the living Force. i wonder how much manipulation of the living Force it takes for everything to become out of balance? obviously sparking galaxy-wide wars helps...
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---
    also, can non-Force users manipulate the Force without tapping into it? like pollution, habitat loss, or mass extinction?
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Honestly I thought Planetary Genocide was something that a non-Force user (like Hux) could help to cause imbalance. To extinguish that many lives at once has to affect the Force greatly.
     
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  10. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    As near as I can piece together from the movies, interviews with Lucas, and canon this is still a difficult story to unravel. It would take a book or to fully explain.

    The films refer to "The Dark Side." So while I agree that motives are important I think that the Dark Side separate from motives exist. Like wise the light. This I think is intended to be analogous of good and evil.

    Balance of the force I think of as a wheel rather than a scale. This the most complex because it is both related to light and dark as well as living and cosmic. The actions of dark siders endanger the system as a awhole. They are part of an ecosystem but act unsustainably, they aren't concerned for others unless they have a personal connection. In short their self pursuit of there own desires over others hurts others. On a small scale its evil, on a large scale it crushes ecosystems, breaks economies, blows up planets and so on.

    The cursed mitichloreans apparently either are the living force or connected to them. There was a story where the Night Sisters were harvesting the living force from people, draining them of life and storing the living force power. Qui-gon said with out the mitichloreans we would have no knowledge of the Force.

    I think that balance refers to the optimum conditions for life to thrive. This might be cosmic force. I think the "father" from the Mortis Arc is the balance.
     
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  11. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    The Force is indeed mysterious and beyond mortal definition, as Yoda at least knew.

    There was the known Cosmic Force and the Living Force.

    As for Episode VIII Luke, I believe he has found the "Z" axis of the Force -- as in Cartesian coordinates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system) (cited here simply as a visual example of dimensions, not to imply the Force is in any way completely quantifiable):

    Original / classic definitions of the Force seemed to exist along the X axis, between the negative Dark Side and positive Light.

    Jedi such as Yoda and Qui-Gon Jinn understood there was another dimension - a "Y" axis beyond the apparent extremes respectively practiced by the Sith and the Jedi.

    Perhaps ancient Jedi understood the deeper complexities, nuances, and mysteries of the Force as well, and those understandings eventually were forgotten or lost along the way over generations, such that the Jedi drifted perhaps too far as of the Prequel era.

    And perhaps Sequel Trilogy era Luke, during his travels, and/or through the apparent books/journals shown in the trailer, has somehow rediscovered this lost wisdom, and maybe he discovered yet another dimension to the Force.

    Hence the "it's so much bigger" quote in the trailer.

    Interestingly enough, it was Palpatine who suggested this directly to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith:

    if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force.
     
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  12. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    The division light/dark/grey is in my opinion a different one than the division between living and cosmic. Living Force refers to the Force used by living creatures and Cosmic Force is the rest of it.

    Now, it's time for the second, more interesting division. I view the Force like this. There is a box and this box is filled with air. This is the Grey. There's a red balloon that wants to keep expanding until it occupies the whole box. This is the Dark Side. There's also a solid green object around the red ballooon that doesn't allow it to grow too much. That's the Light Side. The Dark Side tries to keep on Expanding but the Light Side understands the need for different kinds of the Force to exist so it halts this expansion.
     
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  13. dewi

    dewi Rebel Official

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    "The Force is a mountain rising from the water - the dark side is merely the submerged, scum-covered underside. If you choose to dive, the slime will trap you." - that's why we should let the Force flow through us, and 'swim' in the Force.

    "The Force is bigger than all of us." - we don't even know the truth of it's existence. Hopefully we delve more into it in these next movies.
     
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  14. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    The Force is an energy field created by all living things. The energy life creates joins the Force and then the Force connects all living things. When you're dead, the energy you creates over a lifetime becomes part of the Force. When you're living your life, the energy continuously adds to the Force. This energy is of a positive, negative and neutral nature - but it is one Force. When you do good, positive energy joins the Force. When you do evil, negative energy joins the Force. Of course good and evil is no easily defined - however greed and compassion is and so please swap good and evil for these terms at your leisure!

    The Force itself consists of all this energy. But it has two elements to it - the living and the cosmic force. The living force is the side of it that connects everything. The cosmic force is the mystical element that cannot be fully explained.

    The Force is in balance when the natural equilibrium between this light and dark energy is maintained. The will of the force is essentially the collective consciousness of the galaxy. It is the living force that connects everything with this energy and thus it knows when the balance has been upset. It's a symbiotic cycle. When the Galaxy is oppressed and "evil is everywhere" then life across the galaxy collectively seeks a return to balance and thus this is communicated through the will of the force.

    When groups like the Sith take over the galaxy they spread evil everywhere and evil then become easier to come by. Thus the force itself consists of greater negative than positive energy. It is unbalanced. The Jedi's role is to destroy those that spread evil and thus allow good and evil to be balanced again.

    So in essence, to me, the Force is one pool of energy that consists of positive, negative and neutral energy. The dark side and light side is both within a person and part of the energy of the Force - we see how when the Dark Side takes over that those that wield it become more powerful. Sidious for example wants a more powerful apprentice because that brings him greater power.

    This is why I see the Jedi as being in the middle - balancing light and dark and enduring that those that follow the dark side do not empower dark over light.
     
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  15. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

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    Lucas' force is based on Chinese philosophy and Yin Yang. It just is. Light and dark are in coexistance.

    "As everybody knows, Yin & Yang symbolise the fact that there's a universal balance between all opposites. Small & big, poor & rich, male & female, dark & light, decay & growth, and so on. But good & evil do not fit this series. This can easily be seen when the spiritual meaning of Yin & Yang is thought through.

    The main spiritual realisation the symbol of Yin & Yang offers, is of course the idea that one should not get attached to one of the two, because there is a Yin & Yang side to everything and they always need each other. The symbol learns us that balance in one's own life can be found when we're able to allow both the Yin & Yang to exist, and to accept the natural flow between them. Yet it does not show spiritual insight when one says: “Ah well, good and bad will always be there, just like light and dark, just like male and female, just like all things Yin or Yang.” When taken in its true value, the concept of Yin & Yang leads us to quite the opposite conclusion. Good & evil do not belong in it, because they only become an issue at the moment the balance between Yin & Yang is disregarded.

    Good & evil originate when somebody starts adding more value to certain things that are simply Yin or Yang. Good & evil are called into existence when some Yin or Yang is forcefully impeded to evolve into its opposite." (source- http://www.jonasyunus.net/index.php/blog-the_yin_yang_of_good_evil)
     
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  16. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

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    Something of interest is that in the ST any mention of good/evil is replaced by light/dark, which is a new thing and links in with the Yin & Yang idea.

    in the OT Luke says 'there is good in you (father) I sense it.' or something similar. while in the ST when Han and Leia discuss their son, she says 'Theres still light in him.'

    and this can be noted through out the ST era works. I think this semantic change is a big clue to how LucasFilm are changing(refining?) how the force works in relation to light/dark. and I assume based on the line -

    'When you light a candle, you also cast a shadow'

    which is from Le Guin's Earthsea but it is used in TFA art book. I think a bunch of the stuff McCaig seems to say in the art book is coming up again now in relation to the way the ST force is being viewed. He was probably told in what way to consider the force/light/dark when designing Luke/Anakin and so on.

    So I think my take on this is that we are being pushed to consider light & dark as essential forces, not terms synonymous with good & evil, which I think bares repeating as this is different from how we were led to understand the force in the OT and the PT.

    from the change in sematic use of light/dark I think its becoming clear that the terms Light & Dark no longer mean Good & Evil. and if thats the case, then what do they mean? and in relation to the Le Guin quote. or the other quote about Anakin/Luke-

    luke quote.jpg

    What can we then say of the nature of the force. This new revised way of thinking seems to suggest that someone can go to the dark side of the force, and then return to the light fully, as is discussed in the above quote about Anakin. now since this concept isn't actually in the films, its fair to say its not proof of a cannon change of direction. But, we do know that Vader did fully return to the light, so Yoda's original warning to luke about the darkside consuming you isn't accurate. and Luke learned this first hand.

    I assume in the ST we will be told that the Light & the Dark are essential components to the same thing. Which I know is not a favourite theory amongst many of the people on these boards, but I find the lack of the terms good & evil in the ST to be very telling about the direction we are headed in, it points towards the idea that the light isn't good and the dark isn't inherently evil. I don't know what that means for the future star wars lore, but it seems to be what they are angling for. especially when you add in Chirrut Imwe to the new Canon mix-
    its not so clean cut as good & Evil forces anymore.
     
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  17. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

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    Great catch!

    Also worth noting the value of the Chinese film market where this notion of dark/light is well understood. Adding a familiar cultural framework can only boost the series' popularity.
     
    #17 mrverylongusername, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  18. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Maz Kanata explicitly says the FO are evil and that "they" must fight against the Dark Side.

    + The FO is described as "sinister" in the opening crawl.

    + Lor San Tekka says that the FO is spreading despair across the galaxy and there cannot be balance without the Jedi around.

    All that indicates to me that nothing has changed but that Luke is just a bit jaded and/or feels someone else has to start the Jedi afresh.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---
    I'd also say that McCaig is wrong. Luke wasn't the first Jedi to acknowledge his own Dark Side. Every Jedi has to do that and Yoda explicitly talked about his in the CW, Rebels and the rots novel.
     
  19. Maximillian

    Maximillian Rebel General

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    Yeah you're right. I missed that one about MAz. still it doesn't change anything, there is a consistent shift away from the use of good/evil and towards light/dark. it may also be of interest that its only when the sun is drained in TFA, and it goes dark, that Kylo kills Han. I think this is mentioned specifically in the novelisation and script.

    (edit-) I found it-

    Kylo Ren unholsters his lightsaber and SLOWLY EXTENDS IT to
    Han, within a foot of Han's chest. Han almost can't believe
    it. The moment seems to last forever. And just then, the
    LAST BEAM OF SUNLIGHT streaming through the open hatch

    VANISHES.
    Han actually smiles -- and reaches out for the dark weapon --
    but with the light now gone, KYLO REN'S EYES FILL WITH

    DARKNESS, HE IGNITES THE LIGHTSABER --

    and I feel that the use of the Dark/Light dichotomy is much more apt, and what they are angling for in the this trilogy, opposed to good/evil.

    the shift and focus on the nature of light & darkness as well as balance is a clear key element of the ST's drive. even in the teaser we get Rey saying 'Light...Darkness...a Balance.' they're being pretty obvious about it.

    I think you kind of missed my point, I'm not saying the FO and the Darkside users aren't 'evil'. I'm saying there was a semantic shift away from the term, to replace it with 'darkness' and a move away from describing the goodie's as 'good' and towards describing them as 'light' and the reason for this I would conclude is becasue the LF team don't want us to consider that Dark always= evil.

    The first order are the baddies, thats evident. but what I'm noting is a large shift in terminology for some reason and I'm trying to deduct the reasoning for it. simply re-buffing my claim by saying 'But the first order are evil' has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. The Maz thing however is of interest but it still doesn't disprove a large shift in semantic focus, it is simply something worth considering.
     
    #19 Maximillian, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  20. mrverylongusername

    mrverylongusername Rebelscum

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    Based on their actions, the FO are evil and sinister. We're not saying that Good and Evil do not exist.
    Lor San Tekka represents the old dogma that the Jedi spread.
     
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