SPECULATION The nature of the Force

also of interest, and I'm gonna go through the whole TFA script at some point for things about the nature of the force- Han says this in TFA-

I used to wonder that myself. Thought
it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo --
magical power holding together good,
evil, the dark side and the light.

So he clearly mentions good and evil, and the dark side and the light. but he specifically mentions that the force is a magic power holding good & Evil together....I know hes just an old smuggler but still, this is an odd bit of dialog if we are to assume the dark side of the force ins an inbalance. I am really won over by the Yin Yang comparrison and Han's speech only confirms this for me further.

Where as Kylo going on about 'the call from the light' means he's clearly supressing part of himself and not leting the force hold together the good,evil, darkisde and light within him.

Lot of mentions of Light and Dark in TFA. that was the gist of my point and it stood out to me how much the terms were used even on first viewing.

 

Another interesting bit of dialogue from Chirrut in RO: "The Force moves darkly around a creature that is about to kill". Note this is very different to saying a "A creature about to kill is evil"

So if an animal hunts and kills another for survival, its actions are not evil per se, but they are from the darkside.
I wonder if the rumoured Ahch-To birds are going to be an illustration of this?

 

The Force is it's own power. There are no sides, just different ways of harnessing it

 

I disagree completely. Now if they introduce some people who think that, great. It would be interesting to see these misguided force users. But I don't believe for a second that there is no such thing as the Dark Side and I hope they don't make this the "official" stance on the force.

 

By that, I mean that the Force is powerful otherworldly presence that can be harnessed. If someone uses it to kill innocents, something often related with the Dark side, that doesn't make the Force itself Dark. It is whatever the user makes it to be. There is no light or dark nature to the Force, either people use it for good or evil. That is all in the control of the user, not the force itself.

 

Yeah I think some of what we're saying is just matters of semantics. Like when I say there are Light and Dark, I'm basically saying there are actions that are objectively Good or Bad. Like murdering an innocent person is bad. Some things are neutral, like eating a sandwich. But if you eat a sandwich in front of a starving child, yeah then that's Dark Side all the way. So in a sense it is what the user makes it to be as you said. But I definitely think that there is objective good and evil which is what I'm calling Light Side and Dark Side. And it's up to the individual to practice the Light Side and not the Dark Side.

 

This idea is what is getting people mixed up here. So what you're trying to say is that there is an "evil" side to the Force that actually corrupts? The Force is sentient and makes decisions on right and wrong? If this is true then it actually makes the Force out to be the villain in the story.

Instead consider this. The Force is neutral and unbiased, the same as nature, and it is the people who wield it that make up the light and dark sides.

 

This is a quote from A New Hope:

Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?
Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.
​

So yes, we know absolutely that in some sense the force can influence you towards the light or dark (good or evil). If you tap into the dark side, it will move you down the path of evil. I think there are things that are objectively light and dark side.

Imagine a scenario where there is an option to kill someone for some greater good. One person may choose to do it because they think it is the right thing to do. Another person may say it's evil and refuse. I don't think that whether the action is light or dark is decided by the user. I think there is an objective right or wrong to the action, it is either light or dark. It's up to the force user to get on the side of truth, not to determine the truth. They might make the wrong decision by mistake, these things happen in life because we are human beings. But if you are trying to align with the light side then you will not be pushed down the path to the dark side. If you make too many bad decisions as Anakin did, you find yourself embracing the dark side.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---

The Force is not the villian, the Dark Side is. Of course the Dark Side isn't actually the villian, it's the people that choose to embrace it. But make no mistake, it exists in the Star Wars universe.

 

See, this is getting tricky becuase if what TLJ era Luke is saying when he says 'The Jedi must end.' He could have easily found out that Obi Ben Kenobi's idea of the dark and light was wrong, and that a balance must be arrived at. That the force isn't innately as the jedi thought it was.

So quoting anything from the OT or PT in relationship with the new direction LucasFilm will take the force in becomes tricky. especially if they decide the jedi view of the force, was exactly that, just one of many points of view.

Also as a think peice- When Luke force choked those Gamoran guards, was he using the darkside? or did the force realise that the gamoran's were 'evil' and there for not push Luke further down the dark path? I always thought that scene was Luke using a 'dark art' essentially but with good intentions...and once it becomes subjective like that then its hard to say how any use of the force could be 'evil' or 'good'.

And if it was an evil act. Then surely that proves someone could be 'grey' as they could use both inherently 'good' or 'evil' powers.

I don't like the term Grey as it is muddied and middle ground. I think the term Balance from the trailer makes more sense in regards to this Yin Yang of force. a Yin Yang isn't ever grey, its simply both black and white.

so there you go, some things to think about.

 

Luke was wrong to choke the guards. That whole entrance was supposed to make the point that he was acting like Vader. The whole movie was about the threat of him turning to the dark side. The point being that he uses his training to reject it in the end and proclaim himself a Jedi!

 

Right, so the act of using force choke is ihnerently 'evil' within the premise of the OT. and Luke only managed to stray from the dark path buy turning fully to the light and not using his dark thoughts. That's your/the basic idea of the OT right? that he couldn't continue to straddle the line of light/dark acts becuase it would in the end 'corrupt' him and thats what he realsied when he looks at his own mechanical hand in the final duel with Vader.

 

Yes. This is Luke's journey. He is trying to become a Jedi but the shadow of his father looms over him. And as Yoda tells him, one thing remained until he could be a Jedi - he must face his father and he must be prepared to destroy him. Essentially, he must face his fears and be ready to let go of his attachment. He must reject the dark side.

A lot of people are keen to point out that the Jedi wanted Luke to kill Vader. I don't think this is so black and white. I believe they simply wanted Luke to be able to make that choice if it came to it. The most important thing was that Luke didn't turn to the dark side - not that he actually be able to destroy the Sith. This is shown in TESB when Yoda explains that "matters are worse". Luke would've been an extremely powerful Sith. And so the whole concept of his training was to reject the Dark Side. And in the end this is what saved the galaxy.

 

This is absolutely right. They even dressed Luke in black to drive the point home. He was flirting with the dark side by choking the guard. And as he continued to use these dark side powers he almost got swept down the path to the dark side.

Well yeah they may decide to retcon the whole nature of the force, but my point is that I think that would be a huge mistake. I actually think the prequel era Jedi got a bit off the true path so Luke needs to make some changes like embracing emotion (when under control) more. But if they try to say there are no light side and dark side that's going to be a total mess.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---

I don't know, I think Yoda and Obi Wan assumed that Luke had to destroy Vader. Luke was the only person in the galaxy who believed that Vader could be redeemed, that there was good in him. That was Luke's big victory. And in the end he kind of made his own path, though he basically believed in the Jedi ideals. I do think Luke sees things slightly different than the old guard Jedi so I do think he should make some changes. But denying the dark and light would be a major mistake IMO.

 

I'm with you on this, I think you're right. I think when they wanted Luke to confront Vader, this was because they knew that as long as Vader existed luke would always be curious/tempted to join him. So they sent Luke off, not knowing weather Luke would kill Vader/Join him or Save him. but it was the only chance they had of stopping the empire. or well...Leia I guess.

Okay so we agree on Lucas's vision of ROTJ. However, my points of interest are the unused end for ROTJ where Luke doesn't become a jedi. He becomes a wandering force-user compatible to the 'man with no name' from the westerns. and also the idea that him blowing up death star 01 was somehow an act the force guided him to do...Because that space station was full of normal folks like Finn and so on. and the force totally assisted him blowing it up, and there were no repercussions from it. I suppose because it served the greater good. but still, the force helped him kill a bunch of not necessarily evil folks. and his eyes didn't turn yellow or nothing. Luke arguably killed more innocent people then than Anakin ever did...so like, wheres the dark-side in all that?

And yeah, I kinda get the feeling that LucasFilms are toying with the 'man with no name' idea for the ST. I actually prefer that idea, that he'd reject both Ideologys and just travel round doing 'good' but not as a jedi, not as a believer in all of their 'way'. but I've always been a fan of that premise right from when I first heard it. so I guess that just depends on what idea of the force floats your boat.

 

I think you're right in saying that this is how the Jedi thought things would go down. But I'm just saying that they were not being as absolute as some make out. Interestingly Dave Filoni after discussions with George said he believed the Jedi wanted Luke to redeem Vader.

But yes, I think Luke would change some things or more importantly, not make the same mistakes as the PT Jedi. But essentially it would still be the Jedi Order and it would or should still fight against those that use the dark side to spread evil across the galaxy.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---

I'll get back to you on this. My other half is giving me daggers for spending the evening posting on here! Haha!

 

What?!? I would like to learn more about your organization. Please subscribe me to your publication.

In other words, where can I find out more about this? That sounds pretty amazing.

 

I can't remember where it's been discussed most. I'm sure others on here are aware of it though.-

there is a brief mention of it here-

http://www.indiewire.com/2013/05/5-...edi-how-it-could-have-been-much-cooler-97612/

but it doesn't really talk about his allegiance to the force. I'm pretty sure it was a more abigus ending kinda like how he started ROTJ, where he was kinda this darker, more mysterious force user, who just walked into the sunset, if anyone has more info on it I'm sure they'll share it. anyway, I always wished it had happened, along with Hans death...and seeing as TFA included that, I wouldn't rule out the Spaghetti Western end in IX since Lucas Film seem to be cannibalising old art and story ideas from the OT.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 20, 2017 ---

Theres another mention here-

26. An early version of the movie was to end with Luke walking off alone, leaving his friends behind in true gunfighter/Samurai fashion. That idea was dropped in favor of a happier ending, reportedly because Lucas feared a downbeat ending would throw a wrench in the printing press from which truckloads of merchandising money flowed.

And I think the origonal title 'Revenge of the Jedi' showed how unsure Lucas and co were about Luke and the Jedi in total. basically, it would have just been Luke but a little edgyer. I'd bet Rey may have this ending in IX...or possibly even Ben Solo if he is redeemed...actually that would be the only legitimate end for a redeemed Ben, going out into the frontier of space, trying to make amends.

 

Tell that to Snoke!!

Yes certainly, but I also think The Force sometimes guides non-Force-users/sensitives like Han Solo for instance...

Though it's an interesting take on it, I don't think it's like that. "The Force doesn't work that way!!" - Han Solo (TFA)

To say Sidious suggested there was a middleground, but Anakin didn't achieve it, instead he turned to the darkside is reaching for it imho.
Anakin was suckered in by the promise of special powers (the Jedi couldn't teach him), he erroneously thought he needed!

When Anakin/Vader got rid of Palpatine, that was a big shift towards the Light, but was it balance? Remember, it was a Jedi prophesy, so colored by the Jedi point of view! And we all know just how ambigues that can be!

Intriguing theory!

The biggest lies are best hidden in truth!

Great post! It wouldn't surprise me if GL was heavily influenced by this!

I had noticed that aswell!

'When you light a candle, you also cast a shadow' - Holy bantha! That is beautiful! And so true!

The Jedi don't aknowledge the Dark-side within themselves, they deny and surpress it! Oh they say they do and then control it, but that was the Jedi fooling themselves!

That is why it is so important to make your comment as close to what you actually mean! This is not Twitter...
First think of what you really want to convey and then make you comment reflect that!

I think this is getting close!

I don't think The Force influences anyone toward the Dark or the Light.
It guides you towards the choices and actions that follow the will of the Force!

Your point is still a bit ambigues to me...
However, your scenario reflects Windu vs Palpatine and Anakin thinking it was wrong!
Though it wasn't truly the Jedi-way, Mace realized it was the right thing to do for the greater good! Anakin just used that Jedi-way thing as an excuse! Had he known that killing Palpatine was in fact the only way to save Padmé, he would have agreed!


I personally think The Force is it's own self!
Light and Dark are just two facets of the Force, brought into existance when a Force user emposes his/her perception of reality onto the way he/she uses the Force to reach his/her goals!! But The Force is much more than that!

The middleground is something different than neutral!
Neutral is avoiding any conflict, while Middle is choosing no side in the conflict, but ending the conflict by any means available / deemed necessary!

'Grey-Jedi' is nonsensical! You're either a Jedi or not!

Grey or 'Gray' seems a term that sounds abit unsure of itself...
The Middle or Center seems more clear, a Force-knight/-wielder in the Center of the Force, fully attuned! That to me sounds like the most natural kind of Force-user!
No rules, no dogmatic religions, just the Force and the Knight who fully understands and works to fulfil the will of the Force!

 

There is absolutely a light and dark side to the force and it is within us all the time. At certain moments we all have choices to make and we can be influenced by different forces and feelings. If we act out of our fear, anger, greed, or hatred it usually leads to suffering. But if instead you take some deep breaths, count to ten, and get your mind in a calm, peaceful, and passive state then one tends to make better decisions.

The Jedi are like monks who vow to not use the dark side of the force so as to not let their actions lead to suffering. The error of their teachings is that once one starts down the dark path it consumes that person and they can never come back to the light. Anakin exposed this error by demonstrating that a person can be redeemed.

Just because one gives in to their dark side, as we all do from time to time, it does not make them "evil." Most people live in the gray bringing both joy and suffering to the world around them. The Jedi and the Sith are the ones who live in the extremes of light and dark.

 

I think this is closer to the truth than the danger of Luke leaning towards the Darkside in that moment!
In any case, I think that that whole show with the Force choking, the mind-tricks and the black clothing, was primarely to impress/scare Jabba and his thugs!
But yeah, I think he was using Dark-arts with Light-intent! So in that moment was in no danger of slipping of into the Darkside!

That is what I think will be the follow-up to the Jedi! Force-knights that sometimes use Dark-arts to fulfil the will of the Force!