The Official Weapons and Warfare Discussion Thread Part I: Saber Combat

I actually found the way the lightsaber was used and fought with in SW-TFA to be spot on when it comes to the Star Wars universe of the Films.

The lightsaber is nothing more than a glorified sword, as I feel this was established way back in '77, I am quite amused by those seeking to reopen this debate with the new movie, in an effort to backup a theory Finn is force aware, despite the lightsaber being treated as a sword in cannon for close to 40 years.

As to the fighting..

Rey, who when introduced to Finn in the movie, is established to be a skilled fighter, who we know is force aware, is able to use the lightsaber, and call on the force to aid in her fight against Kylo.

Finn, who is not force aware, (IMO the movie makes this VERY clear) wields the lightsaber very poorly, and loses in seconds to the stormtrooper, and immediately to Kylo, the moment Kylo stops toying with him.

In Finn VS Stormtrooper, I like how the trooper knows not to use a blaster against someone wielding a lightsaber, (which makes sense if he is part of Kylo's Jedi hunting team) and breaks out the baton, with which he quickly defeats Finn.

In Kylo VS Finn, Kylo seems to just toy with Finn, until Finn gets in a lucky strike, at which point Kylo gets enraged and ends the fight almost immediately. I feel the burning of Finn's shoulder by the cross guard just adds to the POV Kylo is toying with Finn.

In Kylo VS Rey, Kylo is wounded by Chewie's laser blast, mentally unbalanced by Han's death, totally unstable due to the influence of the Dark Side, yet still seems to be winning against Rey until she refocuses and draws on the force to beat back Kylo and swing the fight in her favor.

In all 3 fights, I think the way they were scripted fits perfectly for what we are shown about all 3 characters, and so as far as the fighting goes, I feel the way the lightsaber was portrayed and used, fit in very nicely with how lightsabers have been portrayed in the prior 6 movies.

It is a weapon that can be used by anyone in extreme need, but only displays its true legendary attack/defense aspects when in the hands of a trained expert, more so if they are Force aware.

note: I care less about so called cannon from books, cartoons, etc.. IMO, if it isnt in the 6 (now 7) movies, it isnt "true" cannon", at least IMO.

 

I like that it was raw, gritty, and emotional. It fits this film.

I think this is appropriate for the level of skill of the combatants, and am going to personally stay away from the PT. Nitpicking aside, it is simply not applicable.

 

I liked the lightsaber battle.

 

While it does not hold the emotional level that Luke v Vader had in ESB and ROTJ. I sincerely believe it was the best battle, visually, in all 7 films. The light of the sabers against the darkness of the forest, the trees coming down around them and the interaction of the snow to the lightsabers. It all comes together beautifully. Story wise it was great as well, Rey with her back to the cliff, she lets in in the force and begins to channel it then in the end when they are divided by the planet, just great IMO.

 

Short answer: Yes.

After seeing the film a few times, and analysing the fight through the help of a cam rip, there's a certain idea presented in the novelization which has become clear;
Kylo Ren is essentially playing with Finn.

Here's the section from the novel that I am referring to:

"... The longer the contest continued, the stronger Ren seemed to become. It was as if he was enjoying the challenge. Feeding upon it.

"At least, it appeared so until Finn parried, swung, and unexpectedly stabbed, the tip of his lightsaber beam grazing Ren’s arm. That made it more than a challenge. Taking a step back, Ren reconsidered his opponent. When he closed the distance between them anew, it was with a purpose that had been previously lacking. Expecting an execution, he had found a contest. Now he had been touched. It was time for play to end.

"Advancing relentlessly, he was driven by something that Finn could not even sense, far less counter."

If you watch their fight closely, you'll find that Finn is the main aggressor. Finn is the one who keeps lunging at Kylo Ren and swinging wildly at him. Most of the duel involves Finn swinging furiously, and Kylo parrying and evading with effortless confidence. Kylo only makes a comparatively small number of directed attacks at Finn, which are both skillful and purposeful. His first 3 strikes are used to knock Finn to the ground. His second 3 strikes are used to back Finn into the tree where Kylo is able to burn Finn's shoulder with his exhaust quillions. Kylo makes an overconfident seventh blow, which Finn ducks from, taking Kylo entirely by surprise and causing him miss and loose his balanced footing. It is this mistake which allows Finn to land a single blow, but it is also at this point where Kylo "reconsiders his opponent" and decides to end the fight. Finn lunges one last time, and with a single, swift parrying move, Kylo Ren disarms Finn, leaving him unable to stop the disabling strike.

It's a fantastically choreographed fight which highlights Finn's determination being outmatched by Kylo's skill and experience, which helps to develop the characters even further.

As for the duel with Rey, there is a similar level of "play" going on, but for a different reason: Kylo Ren is determined to deliver Rey to Snoke, alive and mostly unharmed.

Just like Finn before her, Rey is the one who charges at Kylo, with wild and unskilled attacks. Kylo Ren parries and evades, countering with skillful blows which push Rey back further and further. Rey proves to be a little stronger than Finn, and so the fight beings taking it's toll on Kylo, who becomes weaker and weaker. Regardless, Kylo remains in control of the fight, pushing Rey back against an edge. But then it all changes once Rey allows the Force to guide her. She moves with a speed and strength that Kylo was entirely unprepared for. He has become too weak to fight back.


If I had any complaint, it would be with the editing and some of the framing of the action. It's just a bit hard to see what's going on in some moments. For example, one moment Rey is backed up against the cliff. She ducks around,. Then the camera cuts and suddenly Rey is pushing Kylo back into the trees... what happened to the chasm that was behind him?

But I love everything else about it... the choreography, the storytelling, the lighting, the atmosphere... and I love the bit where Kylo Ren stumbles backwards after Rey stabs him in the shoulder. Seeing him cower like that is strangely satisfying.

 

Overall I'm quite pleased with the saber combat in TFA. It's more fast paced than the OT duels, probably because of technology, but not as ridiculously twirly and spiny as the PT duels. The atmosphere and the stylistic choice of darkness to emphasise the glow of the lightsabers alongside the cutting down of trees to remind the audience of the power of these weapons was great. I'm not thrilled with the ending of the duel but that's more of a story criticism rather than the actual fight choreography and the duel itself was cool enough for me to get over it, partly.

 

The lightsaber combat in TFA matchs with the ones of the CT. No stupids movings and digitals yoda jumping like a crazy monkey.

I.loved the duels in TFA.

 

The lightsaber fights were phenomenal. The stormtrooper vs. Finn fight was fun but it was too short to really analyze in depth. The lightsaber fight between Finn, Rey, and Kylo Ren is among my favorite in all the movies now.

To me as I see it as a battle of endurance. Kylo Ren begins the fight already heavily injured and to be quite honest, extremely lucky to be alive let alone ready to fight both Finn and Rey. He is able to handle Finn relatively easily but he is overconfident and allows it to go on longer than it should. This allows Finn to wear Kylo out and it gives him an opportunity to strike Kylo's shoulder. Kylo becomes angered and quickly puts Finn down after this with a brutal slash to the back. Finn performed admirably against Kylo all things considered but his lack of experience with a lightsaber combined with his aggressiveness lead to his defeat. The Skywalker lightsaber is tossed from Finn's hand and lands in the snow in a way that is very evocative of the wampa cave in ESB. The force pull for the lightsaber is an amazing moment to see every time as it flies past Kylo Ren to Rey beginning the second phase of the battle.

The Kylo vs. Rey fight also begins very one sided as Ren clearly outmatches Rey in the first half of the fight. He is stronger and more experienced in lightsaber combat than her but his intention to capture her alive keeps him from killing or maiming her. Rey is constantly on the run from Kylo until he is able to corner her when the planet begins to collapse. When she calls on the force for help the fight becomes more balanced in favor of Rey. Kylo is caught unaware and the toll of the previous fight and his injuries begins to build. This gives Rey an opening for one strong blow to his leg. At this point Kylo Ren is essentially beaten as he is unable to regain his balance for the rest of the fight. Rey pushes her advantage and continues to land blow after blow until he can no longer fight back. The battle ends as the land tears them apart from each other.

The fighting felt more grounded than the prequels in that it was slower and yet more exhausting. It didn't look like a heavily choreographed dance fight; it looked like two individuals fighting for their lives. I really liked that the lightsabers caused visible destruction to the environment. They appear to have a real weight to them and they actually cast off a light onto the actors and scenery. The score for the last fight was ominous but also exciting. The atmosphere was amazing in the Kylo Ren vs. Rey and Finn fight. It’s definitely among the best of the saga in my opinion.

 

ArynCrinn and Darth Dyne said it all. I completely agree with them both.
All lightsaber battles in this movie were simply great fights to watch.

 

Great emotional weight, balance and stakes in the portrayal, far outdistancing the PT. Excepting Kylo's showy lightsaber spins (which I had no problem with) everybody was very raw and the fights were tense and primal which I would expect for novice (gonna take the Force out of this for a minute) sword fighters.. However I expect to see some improvements in the look and depiction of lightsaber duels in the next films because as Samuel Jackson put it they will have gone to "lightsaber fighting school". And hopefully Grand Master Luke will get to show his skills some too.

 

It wasn't exactly what I wanted, ever since it was announced that The Raid guys I had this epic Raid lightsaber combat in my mind, but I hope that happens in VIII.

That said, I loved it. I wasn't sure how the cross guard lightsaber would look but it was awesome, I loved how Kylo used it against Finn and I loved the intensity of it all, both physical and the game changing moment in the Force for Rey. Really well done, I was very happy with the scene.

 

People expect an "epic" duel.

And that, if i am being honest, is the unfortunate side effect of the prequels.

If you apply logic, then you can see that neither fighter benefits from a prolonged fight.

Each strike, each movement, should be intended to kill or maim or disarm.

Quick, brutal, deadly, frightening, and at times chaotic -- Is what we should see on screen.

In my humble opinion, TFA smartly restored those things to lightsaber fighting.

And, again, if i'm being honest, i actually am afraid johnson and trevorrow will lean back on the "dance" and "ballet" again.

But, no matter what happens, we get those new lighting effects, the new sound design. Which will aid in creating another dazzling and gripping scene.

 

The first thing I thought of in observing Kylo Ren fight, for whatever reason, was this:

It probably had more to do with this than the technicals though:


In retrospect, having now watched this several times, I would probably classify it as a sloppy version of Djem-So, which would make sense figuring it's the style of his former master:


This Duel(s) was by far the most brutal that I have seen in Star Wars film and has a great sense of uniquess to it.
Most of the duels had occurred in artifical surroundings sans 2 brief duels and part of the Anakin/Kenobi duel on Mustafar.
JJ kept this in a completely organic surrounding. There's something really awesome about seeing trees cut in half and vaporization of snow.
The brutality was not simply limited to the physical but extended well into the psychological. Lots of visceral emotion on display.
And it goes without saying that the moment Ren drove that tiny blade into Finn's shoulder was the moment all complaints about Kylo Ren's lightsaber ceased.

Then we have Rey. Contrary to how some angry reviewers have described her skills, she actually spends most of this match falling back and evading, desperately parrying Ren's attacks. It's been said by others that she looks like she's trying to port her bojuitsu style into a sword style out of desperation and I would have to agree. Fundamentally, the application is the same for both: Reach out and touch someone. This guy claims ~7:20 that this is a ridiculous notion:

But as you can see in this video from Pacific Rim they are using the jo staffs like swords at various points in these duels:

Still, Rey's form makes Shii-Cho look like Makashi.

I think that's the first time we've seen a dark sider get beaten down on film when it was not part of the BBG's master plan. Not just suckered like Maul was, but outright defeated. So how did Rey accomplish this??
"Because she's an overpowered mary sue feminist little #$@% and ruined canon!"
Nope. She won by going for his legs. She unleashed a barrage of attacks toward Ren's head. Once he's dedicated to a high defense, she sweeps downward for the legs. She clips him and Ren goes off balance. Now he's exposed, out of rythm, and open for attack. Ironically, the guy in the video above claims ~16:00 they should have done something clever to have Rey win the fight. They did.
This fight ranks #2 on my list. Figuring what #1 is.. says a lot.

 

I instinctively knew the combatants were actors and that the light sabres were fictional weapons. I was not convinced that the battles were real because I had been watching it in a cinema and not in some remarkably coincidentally timed live BBC News report on the telly at home.