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The One Thing You Didn't Like in TLJ (For TLJ Lovers)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jayson, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    That is the point of that line.
    It's confused because at that moment the story shifts its narrative focus to being about Luke instead of about Rey, to a degree, and so Rey at that moment stops saying things because she needs to, and starts saying them because Luke needs them said.

    At that moment, Rey needs to fill in the role of "Drank the punch new recruit activist". Essentially the exact nerve wincing "canned Christian" vomit speaker that Luke is completely jaded against.

    It's supposed to be somewhat akin to a young and new Benedictine monk running up to the jaded hermit who used to be the Abbot, but pissed off because he lost his faith while off starting another monastery.

    You're supposed to wince.

    It just gets confused because we've been riding shotgun with Rey the whole time and now all of a sudden the narrative weight swings to being about Luke, but we're still sort of doing that from Rey's passenger seat position.

    This was always the problem with Luke coming back - as soon as he steps in, you run into narrative focus and weight problems that make it more at risk of confusion.

    Given the logistical nightmare of the ask to make a story about Robin with Batman in it that somehow doesn't become a Batman movie in the process, they overall did fairly well at achieving that ask (to many people's frustrations, I think).

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  2. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Mainly online, I don't have many super SW fans in my surroundings. Plus, people will never be as shitty in person as they feel confident to be online.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    If you want to hear it in person, walk into any entry level tech position department.

    I don't work in such a position, but we were temporarily housed with an internal engineering technical support department, and it was so bad and I had to hear it every single day, that I took to hanging up two copies of each of the ST movie posters around my work area just to cause those near me to feel awkward and lower their voices so I wouldn't have to listen to their stupid crap.

    Though, that also meant they would approach me and start to engage me in some "let's debate Star Wars, and talk Star Wars lore logic...etc..." conversation, but I easily swat those away because I A) pull out my 500 page production history on Star Wars, B) pull out my official making of books, and C) start talking about the narrative history of Star Wars as a craft and art of cinema.

    That usually causes them to walk away entirely lost because THAT is not why they love Star Wars, nor what they want to talk about.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I wish I had that kind of attitude and aptitude, lol. But, in real life, I mainly just walk away and let them talk to the air until they notice. I don't owe my energy to anyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I'm what I call a, "Canadian Red Forman".

    That is, I'm really nice, but I'm still thinking, "Dumb@$$", 90% of the day.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    I asked because I've had periods of time where I've been without any real life Star Wars sounding boards and I know how much the human interaction part, matters. Even now, it's basically my brother and a few clients who I'd call serious fans.... my wife has basically abandoned the SAGA movies. She did love Rogue One and enjoyed Solo. The CGI of the PT is/was too cartoonish for her eyes, save for ROTS and when it comes to the Sequels, she straight up hates them. TLJ ticked her off so bad, she didn't bother with completing the SAGA. I tried more than once, even rented the Blu ray a few months later and it was all "NOPES." Not sure how I convinced her to give The Mandalorian a try, but she loves that show.... and she's game for Book of Boba as well as Kenobi ("as long as they don't screw up Star Wars"). So at least we will have those, to share.

    What if some stoners kids approached you in the Theater parking lot on your way out and ASKED you to ruin the movie for them?
    (dark)
    I've had this happen to me twice in my life.
    (emperor)
     
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  7. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel Official

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    The art design of the film to be honest and the way it's paced and edited. Actually now that i think about it the whole way it was directed and cut together.

    Rian Johnson is an excellent director and I love what he did with every other film of his I've seen. But I don't like looking at TLJ (except when in Snokes throne room) a lot of the character dialogue scenes look awkwardly spliced together to compensate for poor performances or first takes that Johnson left in for quirkiness (Master Skywalker we need you to bring the Jedi order back because Kylo Ren is strong with the dark side of the force.....WTF in that moment, looked like a practice run) tonally it's all over the place and I don't like the costumes the characters wore to be honest, I don't like Snokes redesign. I've grown to absolutely love the story and all the context behind it but I find the story suffers because a bit because it doesn't play out as well on screen as it should in all honestly, mostly because of how the movie was shot and cut together.

    Although I will admit the whole art design issues is just my personal taste. Still a great film, but just for me some really odd choices made in regards to what they shot and how they put it together.
     
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  8. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Really? I loved Snoke redesign for TLJ. I think the visual, actions and lines for him were perfect in the Throne Room.

    And I loved how he was sliced in two opening space for Kylo character as Supreme Leader (well, before the release of TROS and the return of Palpatine, of course).
     
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  9. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    I actually really liked Snoke. Before the release of TROS, I liked Snoke because he reminded me of Palpatine. He was like a Palpatine figure to Ren who reminded me of vader. I feel like Snoke was like a manipulator similar to Palpatine. Of course, this became all really ironic after the release of TROS considering the actual Palpatine returned lol
     
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  10. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Jedi Commander

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    I realized that I don't dislike the ST, I just think legends is superior. However, I still don't like canto bight
     
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  11. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
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    The 6 idiots who sat behind me on my first viewing & proceeded to Talk, Use there phones, Move around & generally completely destroyed my viewing experience :mad:.
    Thankfully I had a second viewing booked at my local cinema which was a much more posative experience.
    As a side note that was the last time I visited that particular cinema & have no plans to visit it again.
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Always worth knowing what works for you.
    There's scores of material out there that are just wasted on me, but are massively popular. Country music, for example.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens HATES: Clumsy AND Stupid

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    Me reading your post: Hello Anger, meet the soon to be Suffering.
     
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  14. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    I have come to realize that I actually don’t dislike the ST. I just don’t like it as much as the other trilogies. Anyway, I love the battle of crait. Cool planet. Cool base. Frigen coolest walkers ever. Gotta love it
     
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  15. Dryden Valiance

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    In my opinion after seeing TROS, TLJ is a masterpiece. And he did deserve all the hate it receives.

    I'll admit that after exiting the cinema it took me a while to digest everything that happens in the film.
    However, over time I learned to like it more and more.

    And if I have some complain or thing I didn't like I put them in prospective: movies are difficult to make, Star Wars is one of the most famous franchise of all time and Disney despite being one of the biggest studio today must to follow certain "rule" for marketing purpose, it tryed to please everyone (and sometimes when you tries to please everyone you end up with pleasing nobody).

    The Canto's Bight scene
    Admiral Holdo being unnecessarily secretive
    Luke's thought of killing his nephew
    The throne fight scene, etc... etc

    BUT...
    If I had a time machine and the power to go back in time and change something about TLJ I will:
    [​IMG]
    I'd give Carrie Fisher a proper ending for Leia' character.
    Of course this is not RJ's fault or Disney, but this is the only thing I'd change.
    Rise of the Skywalker is the only Star Wars movie (apart from the OTs) that I did not go to see in cinema, I was so shaken by Fisher's death that I felt like I was paying the ticket to go to a funeral.
    Maybe one of the reasons I hate TROS so much is because I can't accept that Carrie Fisher's latest film was such a mess (JJ handled her death in a pretty decent way but was very hard watching her playing Princess Leia for the last time).
    (leia)
     
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  16. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    The one thing I didn't like about TLJ was the fans. I still don't. We do not deserve Star Wars.
     
    #136 Angelman, Nov 3, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  17. Lord Phanatic

    Lord Phanatic Indigenous Ruler of Hoth
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    I'm not a TLJ lover or a hater.
    I won't sit here and run down the list of everything I didn't like about it. The list is quite extensive and it would appear as bashing. In a nutshell; the overall feel of the movie. It just struck me as really left field, odd and obscure. At the same time there we're a few moments I enjoyed.
     
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  18. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I think one part of TLJ where a small change could have made a huge improvement is Snoke's death scene. Between focusing on the second rotating lightsaber and Snoke's over-the-top dialog, it is obvious what is going to happen, and when it does happen, it almost plays more like a joke when it could have been a really exciting moment.

    Imagine if they played it like this: A lightsaber sits next to Snoke in the background, but it does not rotate and is not emphasized in any way. Change Snoke's line to something like, "My faith in Kylo is restored - and now this is the end for Rey!" Ben strains for a moment, and suddenly, the second lightsaber goes off, and Ben force slices Snoke and the scene continues as before.

    If Snoke's death had been a surprise, it could have hit a lot harder.
     
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  19. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    For me it was a surprise. I thought that Snoke was aware of Kylo's plan. I was really sure that Snoke, in some way, would throw the saber away or block.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    This is a tricky subject.
    Telecasting is a very purposeful tool.
    It often gets mixed up with surprise, but the two are related but not the same. One wants the knowledge known up front, and the other wants no knowledge up front.

    Telecasting today, however, also ends up with a toe dipped in surprise at times because audiences are implicitely fluent in film language and may easily second guess the telecast - leading to a loop of possibles (which itself has been purposefully used and lampooned).

    Here's Hitchcock on the subject:

    “There is a distinct difference between “suspense” and “surprise,” and yet many pictures continually confuse the two. I’ll explain what I mean.

    We are now having a very innocent little chat. Let’s suppose that there is a bomb underneath this table between us. Nothing happens, and then all of a sudden, “Boom!” There is an explosion. The public is surprised, but prior to this surprise, it has seen an absolutely ordinary scene, of no special consequence. Now, let us take a suspense situation. The bomb is underneath the table and the public knows it, probably because they have seen the anarchist place it there. The public is aware the bomb is going to explode at one o’clock and there is a clock in the decor. The public can see that it is a quarter to one. In these conditions, the same innocuous conversation becomes fascinating because the public is participating in the scene. The audience is longing to warn the characters on the screen: “You shouldn’t be talking about such trivial matters. There is a bomb beneath you and it is about to explode!”

    In the first case we have given the public fifteen seconds of surprise at the moment of the explosion. In the second we have provided them with fifteen minutes of suspense.

    There is no terror in the bang, only in the anticipation of it.”

    I think it is difficult to nail such telecasts today because to one person it now reads as a failed surprise while another sees a telecast with a surprise and yet another sees a complete surprise with no telecast at all because the leading elements did not lead them to any given foresight.

    I've seen all three of these reactions to this moment.
    Which is the truth of it, then?

    I think the truth is it's a "superposition" of all three truths at once. A Schrodinger Truth, if you will.

    You can't truly know which is the truth in such telecasting scenes until you check with an individual and know which way it went for them.

    Were they unsurprised nor suspensed because the telecast communicated the implication, but implied no possibility of multiple outcome possibilities to them?

    Were they surprised and suspended because the telecast communicated the implication, and implied to them possibilities of multiple outcomes?

    Or were they blind sided because in a hope to avoid the first experience and create the second experience the film language obscured the possibilities to a degree which also obscured the telecast itself to them, leaving them unclear what was happening or why they were being shown the elements?

    There's this nightmare, I think, of being a modern filmmaker attempting to create any suspense in a massive blockbuster and often I think it gets chucked for pure surprise because it's all together far easier to navigate than suspense given the audience levels involved now.

    I don't have an answer to your issue. I can say I've seen your point before, and I've seen @Messi's point as well, as well as the third, and all I've concluded is such matters are a real pain to universally nail for all audience member types.

    Someone will be let down, another irritated, another delighted - entirely based on an issue of cultural language and theory of mind.

    A chunk of the audience was confused by the end of the first Mission Impossible while another was bored at the obviousness, and yet another section was delightfully held in supense just right.

    So which is it? I really don't know.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #140 Jayson, Dec 7, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
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