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The Redemption of Ben Solo: Does it Work?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    Um...considering the way things are lately, I doubt if they even considered this. but yes...it would have been unexpected.
     
  2. DeeRush

    DeeRush Rebel Trooper

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    I don't think Kylo Ren/Ben Solo's redemption worked for me. I found it rushed. At least Lucas had set up Anakin's redemption near the end of "The Empire Strikes Back" . . . which explained his apathetic behavior throughout most of "Return of the Jedi". On the other hand, Kylo Ren's redemption seemed to have come out of left field and at the last moment. I also thought it was a blatant rehash of Anakin's redemption.
     
  3. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    TROS frankly ripped off a lot of other movies - Avengers (I am IronMan; I am All The Jedi), Raiders of the Lost Ark (the hunt for the Sith dagger). but mostly it ripped off ROTJ, from Ben's fate to Palpatine dying (again) to the scenes of everyone celebrating post the fall of the FO, but for this viewer, it wasn't a patch on any of them.
     
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  4. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    Like the rest of the film, barely gets by but in less than satisfying fashion.

    Trying to "end the saga" was an unforced error.

    If Kylo was to ever be redeemed it should have only been after being the "big bad" himself and then earning it rather than a light switch being flipped and playing Charlie Chaplin the rest of the way.
     
  5. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    Kylo was my favourite character, but his redemption was far too rushed....the film should have started with him already starting to change, rather than an endless series of duels with Rey, let's face it, Luke and Vader only met in combat twice.
    But TROS seems to have been edited so many times, I wonder if they didn't intend to redeem him originally, and changed their minds after he won a 'who do you want to see most' poll on the official website.:D
     
  6. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    As much as this is what I wanted too, I've run out of patience and tolerance for the "DiSnEY" and "JAr jaR AbRAmS" crap. Why? Because it's disingenuous. As much as it annoys me, it's WELL-ESTABLISHED people in charge of this franchise are obsessed with redemption of terrible people. It's been going on for decades and goes all the way back to the original trilogy (Vader).
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 4, 2022, Original Post Date: Jul 4, 2022 ---
    What exactly is happening in Rise of Skywalker in your world? With no villain for Rey to fight, what exactly are she and Ren doing throughout that movie?

    And it was twice. They fought twice in TROS.
     
  7. kuatorises

    kuatorises Rebelscum

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    I hate how obsessed (and reliant on) the franchise has become with this trope. I like that Vader helped Luke, but I in no way, shape, or form forgive him. He does not deserve eternal/universal forgiveness. He is a mass murderer AND the only reason he helped Luke was because he was his son, not because it was the right thing to do. If Luke isn't his son, nothing changes.

    And ever since, this trope has been used in countless games and books.

    I hate Ren. I'm supposed to. Driver gave a great performance. He played Ben how Anakin should have been portrayed. It was a much better portrayal of that personality type and we got an excellent villain as a result. I don't want to Maclunkey see him redeemed.
     
  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    If you look at both TFA AND TROS, I get the impression that Abrams wanted the audience to hate Kylo Ren...and it was precisely why he had him kill Han Solo.
    Han was possibly the most popular character in the OT, and still remains popular to this day. There were many ways he could have met his end, but Abrams chose that method. He wanted the audience to see Kylo as a remorseless bad guy...so we would instead embrace Rey as our hero, as the 'rightful' heir to the legacy of the heroes.

    Other people mentioned it post TFA...why didn't Leia embrace Chewie when he returned from StarKiller? He was like a brother to her, her husband's dearest friend, but instead she hugged Rey, who she had never met. We have Rey weeping at Han's death, despite only knowing him five minutes. We have Chewie sitting beside her as they set off in the Falcon to find Luke.

    Personally I suspect that if Abrams had directed all three of the films then Kylo Ren would never have been redeemed. It was Rian Johnson who had the mask trashed, purely so the audience could see Driver's very expressive face and therefore his conflicted, agonised soul. It was Johnson who also saw 'reylo' and 'went with it', up until the end...and he admitted '95%' of his script was on screen, not all of it.

    Apparently Abrams was against the scene where Han stroked his son's face...it was Ford's idea, he himself said he wanted Han's death to have some meaning and to him, it was the beginning of his son's gradual return to the light. To Abrams, it was the cementing of him as the bad guy...Abrams said he wanted to give the impression he was considering 'going back' with his father but realised it was 'too late'.

    Kylo was once again masked, once again stomping around like Vader Mark 2 in TROS for most of the film, which was why his redemption seemed so rushed. Early leaks said that originally Ren was tossed into the pit...never to be seen again, that the infamous 'kiss' was not in the script, and looking again at the ending of TROS, this could account for Rey never mentioning Ben Solo's sacrifice to anyone, plus his absence as a FG.

    The fact is, Abrams wanted to replace Kylo with Rey as the 'spiritual' Skywalker...but it really baffles me why he wanted to end the bloodline of the heroes like that, with their last scion a villain. Whatever way you look at it, it was extremely dark and depressing.
     
  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    I don’t think stomping around in a mask and being impatient is what Kylo Ren needed redemption from.
     
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  10. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebel General

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    I can see that. Add in that Rian said one of his first tasks was to see where the characters were in TFA, arc-wise, and draw a line to find their next steps. From Ben killing Han and Han touching his face, we got:
    • Kylo being called out for being “unbalanced” and the deed having “splitting his soul to the bone.”
    • Being unable to shoot toward Leia
    • His lack if hate toward Han, compared to Anakin, who outright stated he hated the Tuskens, liked had some resentment toward Dooku and the Separatists, and his hatred of Obi-wan really sparking on Mustafar. It seems the only one he hates is Luke, but there is no payoff there for him. Granted, him killing Han with no hate, despite the conflict he seemed to be feeling in the action, could’ve made that act feel worse to others, in terms of Ben’s redeeming qualities.
    • And generally seeing a more human, even if misguided, side to him in the talks with Rey.
    And yet, his film still ended in a way that Ben could potentially go..either way in terms of falling further into darkness or being redeemed.
     
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  11. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    Colin Trevorrow was lined up to direct TROS during the making of TLJ; he wanted 'evil' Kylo plus Rey/Poe, so that is why Rian left Ben's fate at the end of TLJ deliberately ambiguous - and why he included the scene where Poe introduces himself to Rey.

    What's also interesting is Jason Frye, who wrote the TLJ novelisation, also said he had to do an 'about turn' at the end of the book; Rey goes from being genuinely sympathetic towards Ben/Kylo to being completely emotionless; she chose to walk away from him when she came around after the sabre split not because she pitied or cared for him, but because 'the Force willed it.' The result of having three different directors with separate visions, which I still think is the ST's biggest flaw.
     
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  12. DeeRush

    DeeRush Rebel Trooper

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    Frankly . . . I don't think so. I don't think Kylo Ren's redemption was set up properly for it to be effective.
     
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  13. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    After The Last Jedi, I thought we had closed the door on Kylo's redemption. He doubled and tripled down on his turn to the dark side - after killing Snoke with Rey and then on Crait while fighting Luke. I hoped Star Wars would do something different and either have an unredeemed character or, if he had to be redeemed, one that wouldn't die. We never had the story of atonement in Star Wars where character doesn't just die after turning back from the dark, but has to work on repay their crimes, always bettering themselves, maybe never earning forgiveness (Quinlan Voss lived, but we didn't see much of his life after). The character Of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is a definition of lost opportunities. I had many problems with TROS, completely unearned redemption of Ben Solo was just one of them.
     
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  14. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    'No redemption but death'....
    The gloomiest part of TROS is that Ben Solo was redeemed before he died...so basically his 'reward' for becoming redeemed was to die and be immediately forgotten by his own family.
     
  15. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Not that he has much family left, so to speak. But I doubt he'll be forgotten in the future. (Assuming Star Wars ever goes beyond the ST in any meaningful manner.) He'll most likely be viewed akin to Vader, as someone who "turned away from the Dark Side before it was too late, and did the right thing, even at the end."
     
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  16. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    ...and saved the new hope through whom "Skywalker" will become an inspirational goal for future heroes to come.
     
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  17. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    Yup, Palpatine's granddaughter.:p
     
  18. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    Good for her! And very inspirational to know that characters aren't bound by their blood and can rise to the light above the sins of their (grand)fathers.
     
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  19. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Like Luke and Leia did. Makes Skywalker such an apt name to adopt
     
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  20. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebel Commander

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    Luke didn't change his name because he was ashamed of being associated with Anakin 'I killed little padawans' though, did he?
     
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