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The Rian Johnson Thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Viral Hide, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    I think RJ's Knives Out will flop. Not because i dislike TLJ. It's because it premieres a week after the most anticipated animated sequel ever.

    Frozen 2.

    K O will be lucky to break even despite having an all star cast.
     
  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    That's not how box office works.
    At all.

    Frozen 2 has a wildly different demographic than Knives Out.
    It's counter programming.

    It's estimated budget is around $40 million so the general rule is doubling that at $80m to break even.

    The cross section of people who will see Frozen 2 in theaters and Knives out is very small. It's mostly parents.
    Very little crossover elsewhere so it's very unlikely to have this issue.

    This isn't an Aquaman/Bumblebee/Poppins situation where they kind of cannibalized themselves domestically.
     
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  3. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Yes. Yes. I just don't see it doing well. Especially during holiday time.
     
  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    If anything, the holidays and any potential awards buzz will help it. It's ideal counter programming to Frozen 2.
    If Knives Out struggles at the BO it will be from lack of existing IP (practically a death nail in 2019 American cinema) and a robust budget for a film without an attached IP.

    If a movie like this cracks 80 million (it's supposed break even point) then it's a home run. These movies are pretty rare in terms of making big bucks. Maybe one or two a year really make big bucks and a lot of those are on smaller budgets.
     
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  5. Himmel

    Himmel Rebel Official

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    Rian Johnson Explains Why The Last Jedi Had to Go Beyond Lucas' Ideas


    [​IMG]

    https://screenrant.com/star-wars-last-jedi-rian-johnson-creative-choices/
     
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  6. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Rebel Official

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    Whatever anyone thinks of TLJ, I think the premise of what RJ is saying here is spot-on correct.

    Every single Star Wars film has expanded the lore, developed the characters and given is twists and turns to the story. There are themes and meta-themes and structures and meta-structures but on a basic level there has been new stuff in every Episode.

    I could be wrong, but it feels like in TLJ in particular it was that the big example of ‘new stuff’ being a sharp turn for Luke Skywalker’s character wasn’t as easy to take for some people as say, some new vehicles or new locations for the same old (or brand new) characters...

    But I still hold out hope that over time at least some people who didn’t like TLJ will eventually be won over (maybe after Ep IX). RJ didn’t choose the quick easy, more seductive path (i.e. the ‘badass’ ROTJ Luke plus 30 years that I think some fans wanted) - he chose the difficult, but (at least IMHO) more satisfying path of truly testing Luke so that he had the chance to truly grow and develop.

    And the end we got a transcendent Luke Skywalker who faced his demons, and not just the ones RJ concocted, but the issues he had going right back to the OT, whilst exploring the wider failures of the Jedi that I think most fans of the saga recognise, especially after the prequels.
     
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  7. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Had TLJ shows the 'badass ROTJ Like plus 30 years that you think some fans wanted' I think it would have introduced the biggest plot hole of all for this trilogy. That plot hole would have been how the hell could the FO and Snoke gained any foot hold at all. If Luke was so all powerful he would simply had taken them out all on his own. It would never had made sense for TLJ Luke to be that Superman character that so many wanted. He had to have a reason to run away. It wasnt for some long hidden Jedi power. After all he and the rebellion when the Empire had a massive fleet and Death Stars. Why would they need it for the FO with a fraction of the fleet and no superweapon (yet)?


    Ok back to why I really popped into this thread. Something I have though about for awhile. When will RJ films come out. I do believe that common wisdom has them coming post B&W trilogy. I dont think that is the case. I think we have all misread the Disney schedule that came out a few months back. If you take that as the hard and fast Disney schedule then after 2022 the only Disney films being released are as follows:

    2023 - Untitled Disney Live Action Feb 17 and Avatar 3 Dec 22
    2024 - Untitled Star Wars movie Dec 20
    2025 - Avatar 4 Dec 19
    2026 - Untitled Star Wars movie Dec 18
    2027 - Avatar 5 Dec 17

    Thats it. Think it is clear to say Disney has many other films in planning and production including RJ Star Wars just without release dates.
     
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  8. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Rebel Official

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    Yes, I (fairly obviously) agree. Although... in fairness I don't think they ever would have had *just* that one change of Luke being all super-powered from the get-go... it would have likely altered the entire plot.

    I guess another way of putting it is that I think Luke was an over-powered chess piece that had to be removed from the board for at least some/most of the trilogy in order (pun intended!) to create the space (also pun intended!) for a genuine threat to exist for everyone else again. Then they had to explain why and how Luke wasn't around - personally I think they did that in a very, very well thought-out way that is utterly consistent with the rest of the saga (but I know not everyone feels that way, and that's ok, even though I'm sorry if it sucks for those people).
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Actually, Michael Arndt, the first writer of the sequel trilogy back when Lucas was still doing it before he sold it to Disney, was the first one to run into this problem, and TLJ is based around the treatment that Arndt put together for what Lucas had planned originally as 7, but when Lucas sold to Disney, Arndt suggested that the treatment wasn't actually a good idea for the first film because it was too "jump-in" without any real re-introduction, so he advised pushing it off into being 8.

    That is then what RJ evolved into TLJ.

    “Early on I tried to write versions of the story where she (female lead character now known as "Rey") is at home, her home is destroyed, and then she goes on the road and meets Luke. And then she goes and kicks the bad guy’s ass,” Arndt said. “It just never worked and I struggled with this. This was back in 2012.”

    The trouble was a simple case of upstaging. “It just felt like every time Luke came in and entered the movie, he just took it over,” Arndt said. “Suddenly you didn’t care about your main character anymore because, ‘Oh f–k, Luke Skywalker’s here. I want to see what he’s going to do.’”
    https://ew.com/article/2015/12/20/j...question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens/
    Thus, the beginning of removing Luke from the story and creating a reason that he chose to step out; which was all left to RJ to figure out.
    All Arndt really had in his treatment was a reluctant Luke Skywalker who was ornery for some reason and didn't want to train this young woman; that was part of his way of trying to keep Luke out of just being Neo-Luke.
    But it wasn't spelled out exactly why he was this way by Arndt. All that was spelled out was the basic concept of the relationship between Luke and the young woman who would become Rey, and then because Arndt suggested pushing this story to 8 and doing an introductory story for 7, everyone just essentially went with that because it left the issue of Neo-Luke out of the way and Rey could be focused on.

    Meaning, again, that RJ had to work with ideas very loosely sketched out by Arndt about this ornery, resistant Luke and a Rey as developed in TFA and merge the two (because the female character in Arndt's treatment wasn't exactly like Rey - somewhat..ish, but not quite).

    So, you guys are dead-on. This issue is exactly why things were done this way, and it was spotted as the principle problem all the way back in 2012 during the very first treatment for the sequel, and it was so much a truth of the nature of a sequel that has Luke in it, that the solution derived in that first treatment all the way back in 2012 was used all through up to 2016 in two films. I think that conveys how much it was an issue. Usually stuff that comes up in the first treatment, especially things like this where they start out from a place of not knowing how to get around a problem, don't usually stick through to final products - especially after being sold.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  10. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Very well said, but I would add that TFA gave us the clues we needed. RJ really didnt come up with the way Luke was in TLJ. Story group and JJ did. Many took dialogue in TFA to mean Luke went to find something to use against the FO from the 1st Jedi temple and he left a map to find him. Thats not what was said. What was said is Luke is missing, not Luke went on a mission. Then Han explains to Rey and Finn that Luke was training new Jedi and a young student rebelled and Luke blamed himself. He said that people that know him best (Han and Leia) think he went to find the 1st Jedi temple. Key is that is what they thought and that is what Leia was looking for. She was looking how to find where the 1st Jedi temple was located. So she put out feelers for people to supply information about how ti find it because the portion of the map is missing. If Luke wanted to be found he would have left a way for Leia to contact him.
     
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  11. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    In the TLJ documentary, RJ talked about having to come with why Luke was this way, and that it wasn't easy. ;)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Dont recall that. Maybe he spoke about it differently. We do know that GL had the idea that Luke went into exile.
     
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  13. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Yes, the attitude Luke had and being in exile were Lucas things but the why of it all is something RJ had to figure out to tie it into TFA and why Luke wouldn't be there.
     
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  14. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Here's his comments from a podcast when asked (easier than skimming through my bluray, but in a form it's on there as well in the doc).

    "Coming into writing Luke, the first thing I had to figure out was why was he on that island.
    He's taken himself out of the fight. His friends are fighting and dying [in] the good fight. He's sitting on an island in exile. I know the Luke that I grew up with is not a coward; he's not sitting out there hiding. So I had to come up with a reason he was there that was one, active; and two, positive. And I guess, three, something that I could genuinely believe I could think if I were in Luke's shoes.
    And the thing that I came to, that seemed to make sense to me… was this notion that he sees this hero worship of him and of the Jedi as something that is detrimental to the galaxy. The universe has put its faith in this false god of the Jedi and they need to basically forget the religion… so the light can rise from a worthier source, basically.
    And because he's the last Jedi and a symbol of that, it then becomes this self sacrifice he has to do to take himself out of it when he knows his friends are dying, when the thing he'd most like to do is get back in the fight. But he's taken the weight of the world on his shoulders by taking himself out of the equation so that the Jedi can die out so that the light can rise from a worthier source."
    - Rian Johnson, Empire Film Podcast, via Comicbook.com.
    Source: https://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/01/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalker-coward/
    Cheers,
    Jayson

     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Initial reactions and reviews to "Knives Out" are outstanding. It was shown at the Toronto International Film Festival and so far 13 reviews picked up by RT are 100% positive and the actual reviews are even more outstanding. You can also find additional reviews on YouTube and certainly more coming soon. Lots of comments pointing that "Knives Out" will be up for many awards.
     
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  16. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend

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    We can see or at least guess in TFA that Luke went into exile because of what happened to Ben.
    But that actually was the easy part, that JJ did.
    The harder part was to come up with more or less believable details and that was left for RJ.
     
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  17. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    To quote Philip Seymour Hoffman in Charlie Wilson's War, "We'll see." The competition is fierce, and personally Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is fantastic. Time will tell as they say.
     
  18. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Me watching Quentin Tarantino films...
    [​IMG]

    (It is also, consequently, the same reaction that I have watching almost all Tim Burton films...)

    I know it's not a popular view, but man...it's just so ... I don't know. Predictable in terms of emotion and pacing for me, and what he happens to be fascinated with isn't that interesting to me personally.

    Rian Johnson, on the other hand, always has me...
    [​IMG]

    Which means...I'll watch it a few times completely silent just studying everything going on with his composition and narrative imagery because it's ridiculous what he can do with the camera, but I won't likely watch anything he makes as a go-to repeat watch - it won't repeatedly excite me.

    Now, JJ Abrams...yeah...well...that's where I basically sit around and go...
    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I feel like after Jackie Brown, Tarantino has almost become a parody of himself in a way where he leans so hard into what he is supposed to be and his own "tropes" that sometimes his films blend together for me as "Tarantino".

    Take Guillermo del Toro. Every GDT movie is almost painfully obviously his but it never feels like the same movie on repeat or just in a different genre. He explores tones and themes where as Tarantino has his Tarantino things he has to hit on or else.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    Ding!
    Except...tbh. I felt like that after his first film.
    Basically, Reservoir Dogs and Kill Bill 1 were the only two where I was engaged.
    Everything else felt like what you just said.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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