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The Rise of Skywalker's Biggest Sin

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Use the Falchion, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    It comes as no surprise to anyone that I really, REALLY don't like this movie for a plethora of reasons. But today isn't the time to discuss that. Today, I'm positing what TROS's biggest sin is. That sin is the lack of a future.

    Ever since TROS...no, ever since the large time-gap between ROTJ and TFA was announced, Lucasfilm has been looking backwards in time. At first it was pretty harmless, but as time moved on, we noticed a reticence to work in that three-decade gap. At first, this wasn't a problem; they'd fill it out eventually, right? The more time passed, the less amusing it was. Nearly five years since that gap was created, we have so few stories about what happened in-between. And despite that gap, nearly every new product that wasn't used to generate buzz for the new episodic movies was placed in the past (Rogue One, Solo, Rebels, Jedi: Fallen Order, Cassian Andor show, etc).

    TROS had two narrative jobs to do: The first was to wrap up this trilogy of trilogies. Again, it's debatable for how well it accomplished this job, but that's a different thread. The second job was to tease out new stories and new adventures. These don't always have to happen, but the possibility needs to be there. We needed to be excited not only about stories in the past, but also stories going forward.

    Look at some of the most iconic sci-fi/fantasy story endings of all time: The Wheel of Time, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Dragon Ball Z, Rurouni Kenshin, Harry Potter, Avengers: Endgame, and even A Game of Thrones (hey, I didn't say this list was all positive endings!). All of these have endings that tease out other stories, other adventures, and make it so if we were to stay in their worlds just a little longer, we'd see those stories. Granted, in some cases we do get to stay a little longer and the stories aren't worth the excitement (ALTA's comic The Search, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, Boruto, etc), but even then, those sequels did their job by bringing people back to the worlds they loved so much.

    Even film franchises like DC's movie universe, despite all of its flaws, setbacks, and failures, has put one metaphorical foot in front of the other and has moved the world (and their stories) forward, and in turn has gained confidence in each step (Aquaman earned over a billion dollars, Shazam was very well received, Joker was Oscar bait, Birds of Prey will most likely gain a cult following, the new Batman movie has many people excited, and The Rock's Black Adam movie is sure to bring in people (if only because it stars The Rock)).

    The Rise of Skywalker did not do that. We don't know what is happening with the government outside of the Resistance and the First Order (and now the Final Order...), we don't know what Finn, Poe, Ko Connix, or Rose are going to do. We have an idea of what Rey's going to do, but only because we saw Luke do the exact same thing. But one character having a set finale isn't enough to tease a world of possibilities out there.

    And when you look at every single reaction, leak, or release since TROS, it's all been...moving backwards in time. There have been no announcements about what happens after TROS. No press conferences, no rumors, nothing. This is a grievous sin; fans of Star Wars who feel like me about this movie can't truly move forward beyond TROS if that's where everything on the timeline stops. We need to move beyond it, both emotionally and chronologically. And since TROS did such a terrible job of providing even that outlet, I claim this to be its biggest sin.
     
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  2. Apollus08

    Apollus08 Rebelscum

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    ^ They did "tease new stories".

    Who said Episode 9 Palpatine was the only clone?

    Now we could get infinite Palpatines out there for our future heroes to battle... :p
     
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  3. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Dear Naga if they did that, then all of my worst nightmares about Star Wars would be true...
     
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  4. Trooper212

    Trooper212 Rebel General

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    This my biggest problem with TROS as well.
     
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  5. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel General

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    At least they didnt go full out with the EU clones thing, which was the worst thing in the EU and introduce Booba Fett. :)
     
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  6. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    No, they can never bring him back again. You can only play that card once... unless it's your goal to create a Jean Grey situation?
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 30, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 30, 2020 ---
    I cannot comprehend why anyone who thought killing him and bringing him back an issue later was a good idea.
     
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  7. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Jannah: Where are you from, General?
    Lando: The Gold system. Well, what about you, kid?
    Jannah: Oh. I don't know.
    Lando: Well, let's find out.

    That’s not . . . nothing . . . I guess :)

    Anyway, I don’t personally see this situation as remarkably different to the end of the OT back in ’83. It was 32 years before we found out what happened next. It’s been 4 months since TROS. I’m not sure what’s so ‘sinful’ about that.
     
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  8. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

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    This is one of the things I love about this forum. I can read a post and think, "Yeah! Maclunkey straight!" and then read another post that disagrees with it and also think, "Huh. Actually, yeah. Maclunkey straight!".

    I think the difference between ROTJ in 1983 and TROS in 2019 is that in 1983 Lucas was done with it. That was the end. Lucas sold Star Wars to Disney to make sure that Star Wars continued far into the future, if I recall what he said at the time correctly. TROS feels like another ending. They didn't blatantly set up any more stories set after it. It would be easy to make up some new threat and start new stories, but nothing was set up.
     
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  9. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    They very premise of your argument is wrong on a fundamental level. That's not my opinion, you're flat out wrong. One of the jobs of a story is to set up future stories?! No, no, no, no, no. Ludicrous statement. The job of a movie is to tell a story, not sell non-existent future comics and books. The original trilogy didn't even do this. All that expanded universe kinda stuff? It's extra. It's a bonus, not a requirement. This is such an incredibly wrong mindset.
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Certainly. As far as George was concerned at the time, this was THE end to his story . . . chronologically. He still wanted to tell what happened BEFORE though. And he did . . . to mixed results. This ‘High Republic’ hoopadeedoo is somewhat along the same lines. This chapter in the story is closed. Now let’s go back and look at an earlier chapter no one has seen yet.
    Well, so that Star Wars (and Lucasfilm) would survive into the future. The bankability of Disney would keep it (and the people whose livelihoods depended on it) secure and allow it to endure.
    I see that as a good thing. That’s one of my main gripes about the MCU (and its imitators). The majority of their installments, to me, seem like little more than setup for the next one. I’m not a huge fan of Endgame, but I very much appreciated the conclusive nature of it. It’s what everything was building toward. There’s a finality to it.

    I’m not a huge fan of TROS either, but I respect that it wasn’t presented as a stepping stone to the next episode. I totally get the perspective. I understand the point of view and its reflection of contemporary storytelling. It would have been anticlimactic to me though to rush things along - to not let the finality linger for a while, before asking “OK, that’s over, what’s next?” How ‘bout we let that sit for a bit and come back to it later? Let the anticipation and interest build?

    I don’t know. This is probably all nonsense :)
     
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  11. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Rebelscum

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    IMO the biggest sin of TROS was the pacing. Had they just added another 15-20 min of runtime I feel like they could have allowed the story and character development to breathe a little - maybe find some quieter character moments.
     
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  12. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    For know my biggest sin with TROS was the returning of Palpatine (also the pacing was too fast).

    But I think his returning will not affect too much the future generations that will watch the movies all together.
     
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  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    Ha okay, fair point about Jannah! However to me, that felt less like a set up to a new story and more like a conclusion to an arc that we didn't know about. Granted, it does show that things will happen after the movie ends, so it counts.

    It's sinful because Star Wars is more than it was in 1982. It's not just a trilogy of movies made to tell the story. It's a world, a wonderful, living, breathing world. And just because the story of some characters have stopped, it doesn't mean that the entire franchise should feel like it reached the end of the road. But that's what it feels like, the end of the road.

    That wasn't the point. The point was that the story needs to end in such a way that the audience FEELS as if there are more stories to tell. The universe the story is in shouldn't feel like it's ending once the story does. The story can end, but the world needs to go on. THAT is the point I'm making. The Rise of Skywalker doesn't do that. Lucasfilm as a company hasn't done that. THAT is the point I'm making. I don't care about the comics and books they may or may not make out of those ideas, but THOSE IDEAS NEED TO BE THERE.

    No I completely understand that! That finality to Endgame is one of its best features. At the same time, they tease out new storylines and character arcs (some of which I'd be upset if they didn't show, others I'm fine with them not showing). That's what I want from Star Wars. With Endgame, our characters' stories have ended, but you know there is more to tell. With TROS, our characters' stories have ended, and I don't feel like there are many more stories to tell going forward (and the few they do have are repetitions of stories we already saw*), and I think that's a major problem.


    *Oh wait, we actually never saw Luke rebuild the Jedi Order before it was destroyed again, so never mind...
     
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  14. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    Semantics, but I'll ignore it because you'd just deny it and I'm not interested in that back and forth.

    You're still completely and fundamentally wrong. All stories do not have an open ending...or one that "feels" open ended; nor should they. Lucasfilm "as a company" didn't do that with Return of the Jedi or Revenge of the Sith. Those stories were over. Twice. Finito. Both had a definitive ending, Jaws has a definitive ending, Terminator 2 has a definitive ending - which is why none of the sequels work - Harry Potter has a definitive ending. Thousands of movies have a definitive ending. You're criticizing the movie based on something that has no merit.
     
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  15. oldbert

    oldbert Jedi General

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    Sorry my friend, but even if I do not agree with @Use the Falchion on the whole subject. It is his "mindset". And nobodies mindset is "wrong" or "right". Especially if it does no harm to anyone. It's just his opinion. And for him it might be true.
    I think they could go on with a restart of the Jedi Order if they would like to.
    But maybe it's time to move on to sthg completely new and fresh.
     
  16. kuatorises

    kuatorises Clone Commander

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    Saying opinions are not right or wrong is also fundamentally wrong, ironically. LOL!
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    If an opinion could be proven ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, then it wouldn’t be an opinion anymore. It would just be a fact.

    The only fact I see here is that different people have different preferences and expectations. This is the age of ‘shared universes’, ‘interconnected narratives’, ‘trans-media experiences’, and ‘longform storytelling’. Makes sense that preferences and expectations would lean toward that model. It’s how folks are being conditioned. It’s the trend.

    Maybe Rey will build a new Jedi Order. Maybe she’ll start fixing up old Homesteads and flipping them for profit. Maybe Poe will help build a NEW New Republic. Maybe he’ll go back to running drugs and stealing cars. Maybe Finn will help deprogram and rehabilitate FO Storm Troopers. Maybe he’ll launch a successful line of ethnic haircare products. I don’t know and I’m OK with not knowing. The grander story for them has been told. It would just be ‘post script’ at this point and I’m in no hurry to catch up. But that’s me. That’s my opinion.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    TROS greatest sin is that it was one movie instead of two (to me).

    I would disagree with the OP that there is no future. I mean Jannah needs to find her background, the uknown regions is just begging for Finn and Company 77 to explore, and Rey presumably restarts the Jedi.

    There is plenty of future there for someone with imagination and investment in building on George Lucas' vision instead of investment in burying Lucas' universe.
     
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  19. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    I'm not asking for the story to have an open ending, I'm asking for the WORLD to feel as if it can move on.

    Because Star Wars as a story, company, franchise, and movie concept was entirely different when ROTJ came out than it is now. Even still, ROTJ told a complete story, yes, but THERE WERE STILL THREADS TO MOVE THE STORY FORWARD. "Pass on what you have learned." "The Force is strong in my family," and how that would end up. There were threads that didn't need to be answered, but hinted at a future in the universe. The story of the Rebellion was closed, but the world could still move forward.

    I'm sorry, but the entire ending was to set up the OT. The Binary Sunset ending was there to set up Obi-Wan's mission of watching Luke, and Luke's position as the savior (of sorts) in the OT. To say that the story is entirely closed off isn't entirely accurate. The story of how the Republic fell may be finished, but Luke's story is just beginning - THAT'S what the ending is saying.

    And Yoda training on Dagoba is another thread. One we don't need to see, granted, but a thread showing that these characters can still have actions outside of the movie's ending. And Obi-Wan's assignment on Tatooine? If fans didn't think there was something there, they would have been clamoring for a Obi-Wan Kenobi movie/trilogy/Disney Plus show for as long as they have been.

    They didn't stop Judgement Day at the end of T2 though, so you could say the promise of the original movie hadn't been met yet. But that's a different problem. ...although I agree, none of the sequels really work (although I do like Terminator Salvation. IT IS NOT GOOD, NOR WILL I DEFEND IT, but it was a fun experience with my friends and so I enjoyed it for what it was).

    And then the entire epilogue is there to mirror Harry's starting point with his son's. But that ending teases out further stories. What house will Albus choose? How will Rose really react to Scorpius Malfoy. There were stories to tell, and so the world moves on. We don't need to see them (and in Harry Potter's case, we probably would have been better off without The Cursed Child), but the world moves on.

    I see your point, but I can apply this to series that have "definite endings," such as Harry Potter, The of the Rings, The Wheel of Time, Ender's Game, Inception. I'm just saying that there's a balance between leaving your audience wanting more and ending a story. This was something I saw done long before the age of shared universes and longform storytelling. It's something I saw and enjoyed in the previous two Star Wars trilogies. Rogue One and Solo even follow this trend for the most part (although those two might be cheating as they're parts of a larger universe).

    I saw it done in the best finales of shows, cartoons, books, manga, anime, and even games. I also saw how they weren't being properly utilized in those same formats.

    That's fair! Moving forward by looking back is a great way to progress a character's journey. I guess I don't really consider Jannah's background much of a "moving forward" (although by my own definitions it does qualify); it felt like the finale to a character arc and character developments we hadn't seen on screen. The only hints we had about Jannah being Lando's daughter (and that's the only way for the scene to NOT be creepy) at the time were from leaks and the visual dictionary. Do I want to see more of Jannah? Yes, absolutely! But this has to do with my like of the character and not what the story/world set up. Either way, Jannah is a fair criticism to my point.

    We have no reason to think that Finn and Company 77 would explore the Unknown Regions though, although I think I can see why you believe we would. I don't think Finn misses his family that much though. It seems to be a part of his past he has let go of (in direct contrast to Rey in TFA).


    The one true "moving forward" aspect I noted the movie has. And to me it's a lose-lose situation. We either see Rey do what everyone wanted to see Luke do (or at least know Luke HAD done and was successful at), or we see them both do it and it's repetitive. Maybe a show could show Rey reforming the Jedi in the future and Luke doing so in the past as a sort of flashback, but even then I can't see the creators making Luke look good at it..unless it's Filoni.* Then I have hope.


    *The problem to me would be that I fear they'd go in a format of: We see Luke do something in the past, we see Rey do something in the present, and then a similar problem occurs for both of them. By the end of the episode we'd see Luke handle the situation the "wrong" way by which I mean it's solved but the cracks for future conflict are present, and Rey handling it the right way. This by itself HAS NO PROBLEM. But as fans it fractures an already fractured view of Luke as a Jedi. And THAT'S what I'm afraid of.
     
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  20. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Then I’m confused. Maybe it’s just me, but I didn’t get the impression from the end of TROS that Rey announces herself as a Skywalker and then is never heard from again. She probably does other things of note - has other adventures. And one day we’ll find out about them. If you’re invested in that journey, then you’ll be excited for what comes next for her. If that didn’t really land for you, then you’ll feel like it’s a dead-end.

    We’re told at the start of the ST that the galaxy is in despair and only the Jedi could bring balance. Now there’s a Jedi again. She “will begin to make things right”. You’re either anticipating what form that takes or you aren’t.
    Your concern is a theoretical complication stemming from a theoretical framing device for a theoretical story? I think you might be jumping the gun here a tad :)
     
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