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The Rise of Skywalker's Biggest Sin

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Use the Falchion, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    For me the biggest sin of TROS is- this movie is a checklist.

    JJ and Chris Terrio tried to please so many speculations and theories made by fans, but they didn't really gave those a second thought. Let's look at same examples to understand what I mean:

    - Rey being powerful because of a powerful lineage. *CHECK*
    - Rey being a Skywalker, even though she isn't. *CHECK*
    - Rey still being a no one (Kylo: Your parents were no one. They chose to be."). *CHECK*

    We got three completely different theories in one.

    Or let's look at Kylo Ren:
    - Kylo Ren being a merciless and evil super villain, because he has to be for killing Han. *CHECK*
    - Kylo Ren still needs to be redeemed. Even though it may feel rushed. *CHECK*
    - Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is redeemed, but there are fans who won't like that, so let's kill him off. => Ben Solo dies. *CHECK*

    Or it's even more obvious with Reylo. Reylo kinda happens and then it doesn't. Again JJ tried to please both, the Reylos and the Ant-Reylos.


    I wish JJ would have made his own movie instead of pleasing everyone. This movie wasn't bold, I would even argue it's the most safe played Star Wars ever.
     
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  2. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    My only problem with this is that Abrams has talked quite a bit at this point, and so has Terrio, about TROS, and neither has talked about going through and filling in fan theory/hope wants.

    Abrams has talked repeatedly about his thought process and that everything is in there because it's what excited him and made sense to him.

    Well...more plural a bit than just singular because he's quite conscious of the joint effort with Terrio and talks of it regularly.

    Terrio flat out denied they did anything of the sort at all.

    Now, Terrio I can't say much about because I'm not familiar with him too much, but Abrams is really on the sleeve with his motives, faults, regrets, and joys.

    He doesn't have a record of double-speak or lying, so I'll take him at his word that he didn't go through a checklist of what fans wanted instead of what he thought the story was compelling them to put in.

    That said, you could say TROS was "paint by numbers" if you wanted to.
    I think that's a bit derivative in thinking, but you could fairly make that claim because they did cover every whiteboard in Bad Robot studios with every story tangent in every Star Wars film, everything they wanted to see, and every tangent in every film that wasn't wrapped up or responded to yet in the series, then compressed that down to 121 page long bullet list of items after scraping through it, and then went through writing the script and checking THAT list off as they went as much as possible.

    So...yes. They did have a checklist, but no, it wasn't some scraping together of crap on the internet that fans were talking about.

    At 121 pages long checklist some crap is bound to cross over. That's a lot of s###.

    "We started just from our own hearts and brains about where we wanted it to go, which is, you know, a great thing for a franchise of this size, because it didn’t feel corporate at all. We were just in Bad Robot, in a room. Just me and J.J."
    - Terrio​

    This is the story they wanted to make.
    Hate it. Like it. They wanted this personally.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #42 Jayson, Jun 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  3. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    For me, the biggest sin is simply the runtime.

    In a perfect world where there's no such thing as money restraints, limited attention spans and tradition of how long films can and should be, TROS could easily be 3.5-4 hours long. That's how much content there is. It's hilarious thinking back 2-3 years ago, so many people saying "Rian didn't leave anything for JJ to do in 9!!" and now you have some of those same people going, "You know... TROS really could've been two films".

    Obviously we don't live in a perfect world, turn on any news station and that will be made abundantly clear within seconds. Still though, I think it's almost unforgivable that this movie is only 5 minutes longer than TFA and 15 minutes SHORTER than TLJ! Even if nothing changed story wise, even if nothing changed plot wise, this movie could've been made so much better by just letting some things breathe a bit. Things don't always have to move a mile a minute.
     
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  4. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Speaking as a (wannabe) writer, that is very much a symptom of the storytelling format. Endings are very difficult to write precisely because you have to tie up a checklist of things set up earlier, while at the same time keeping the story engaging and satisfying. This is very, very hard.

    As an example, RotJ suffers the exact same problem. As does RotS, which doesn't only have its own trilogy to tie off, but stuff set up in the OT as well.
     
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  5. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Meanwhile...I LOVE the pace.
    It's probably my favorite thing because it's just so d### Star Wars 1977 to be a film that's just almost wrecklessly fast; trying like h### to fit everything into this tiny space of time.

    Now, of course, ANH is "classic" (read: old and slow), so it doesn't feel like TROS' pacing, but it did in 1977.
    We have written reviews remarking on it being exhausting and a blur with no room for depth. ;)

    So I was smiling the whole way through my first watch just from the pacing alone.
    Star Wars definitely broke the 'filmspeed record' once again.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  6. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    Same here. I really appreciated the breakneck speed of the film; it added a lot of tension and drama.

    Now, I'm also one of those people who would love to watch a 4h "Director's Cut" (or whatever) of any Star Wars movie, regardless of an extended edition probably making it a poorer product. Give me all the Star Wars allready! :p
     
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  7. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    The thing is, a lot of the stuff which was set up in TLJ (or even TFA) wasn't even dealt with in TROS. People say JJ had a hard task with making this movie, I disagree. Even Colin T.'s 'Duel Of The Fates' did a better job.

    TROS is kinda like Solo- a checklist of events.
     
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  8. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    I disagree with this.


    I agree with you here. I never said JJ had a particularly difficult task in making Ep.9; TLJ gave JJ the opportunity to create a unique SW movie to round off the Skywalker Saga, which he did. JJ's job had been a lot harder had nothing changed between TFA and TRoS, or if (as some fans seem to have wanted) the Resistance (i.e. Luke) had scored a major victory in TLJ (trashing the FO and defeating Kylo Ren).

    But we disagree 'bout stuff and that's fine. We shan't go back and forth on this as there are already, IMHO, too many circles spinning nowhere around here.
     
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  9. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    What I would say to counter that is, and I don't intend for this to sound like a slight because it absolutely isn't, but ANH didn't have many moments where it needed to slow down or make us feel emotional. Off the top of my head the only one I can think of is when Luke returns home to find his aunt and uncle burned to a crisp. Even Kenobi's death, it's supposed to feel more shocking than sad, and it happens at a time where our heroes are frantically trying to escape. In TROS there are moments that are slow and that are supposed to make us feel emotional, Han and Ben's talk/reunion, Ben's death, Leia's death, some intimate moments with Rey, etc. And I just don't feel like any of them hit as hard as they should because as soon as the moment's over it's just vroooooom again. And believe me, I'm well aware that Star Wars is notorious for doing things like that, for moving on right after some big, emotional event, George has even talked about it. But historically that's really only been in-universe. I've always felt that it still hit right with audiences even if 5 minutes later in the movie it's all but forgotten about. In TROS, I just don't feel like it did.
     
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  10. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    Despite these being two separate narrative jobs, I feel like they go hand-in-hand in order for success. TROS really should have been broken into two movies to really dive into character and plot development. It just was too rushed. I don't think they left themselves enough time to provide set-up for future stories.
     
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  11. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    A better job how? We will never see the final product.
    Duel of the Fates have some good ideas that I would've like to see on screen but in general the script is a mess.
    I stay with TROS over DOTF's script even that bringing back Palpatine was not an original idea.
     
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  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    You're comparing an early in-process script with a final movie. So yes it is a mess, but truthfully, so is TROS. It's scattershot film making.
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    No, it didn't hit right like you're thinking. It really was spotted as not hitting right.
    Serious issue was taken by a fair amount regarding the emptiness of it, and lacking of breathing room.

    "Star Wars is like getting a box of C*racker-Jack which is all prizes. This is the writer-director George Lucas’s own film, subject to no business interference, yet it’s a film that’s totally uninterested in anything that doesn’t connect with the mass audience. There’s no breather in the picture, no lyricism; the only attempt at beauty is in the double sunset. It’s enjoyable on its own terms, but it’s exhausting, too: like taking a pack of kids to the circus. An hour into it, children say that they’re ready to see it again; that’s because it’s an assemblage of spare parts — it has no emotional grip. Star Wars may be the only movie in which the first time around the surprises are reassuring…. It’s an epic without a dream. But it’s probably the absence of wonder that accounts for the film’s special, huge success. The excitement of those who call it the film of the year goes way past nostalgia to the feeling that now is the time to return to childhood."
    To add to your list of emotional scenes which fell flat without any real solid time allowing them to breath, (and yes, Obi's death is a flat fall for what it was - it's right up there with Chewie's death and lack of time to breath) there's Leia's entire world exploding. Her parents, her extended family, her friends, nearly everyone she knows personally is on that planet and they all just died.

    Time given to emotionally soak that in? Practically none. She actually puts a blanket over Luke instead of anyone even once recognizing that she is due some comfort for losing everyone she knows.
    Her character, like both her and Luke actually, never shows any lasting impact of her loss in her character.
    She's no Superman to the loss of Krypton (to stay relatively within the genre of pulp serial/comic material for fairness).

    There's never a scene in any film, not even in the ST, where she ever once talks about her loss.
    Luke jumps in for a one-on-one in ROTJ and rather than approach her about never having anyone give her emotional support for grieving the loss of her family, drills her for information about her biological mother and makes it about himself in a hot second after getting a bit of information from her.

    Now, I'm not bothered by any of this. This is the style. It's not supposed to be super deep in that regard. It IS camp.
    It would be like asking to get more psychological moments and emotional responses out of Jack Burton.

    If there is one point of umbrage that I take with the ST, in fact, it is that it overly went with Character Driven narrative style and let go of the Pulp Fiction Camp too much.

    I'm willing to give that a pass, however, because as far as I can tell - I seem to be in a small minority of people who WANT pulp fiction camp and crave its return.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #53 Jayson, Jun 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  14. Trev

    Trev Rebel Official

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    It’s interesting that you brought this up. I remember reading something a while back –– and I can dig it up if anyone’s interested –– but it basically said that Disney kind of forced J.J. to steer clear of a 3+ hour-runtime. First of all, J.J. and crew were working under a much tighter deadline than what was given for The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi, and the film editor, Maryann Brandon, has kind of alluded to the fact that they barely had enough time to get the final version of the film edited in time.

    Furthermore, there was talk of Disney wanting to maximize theater showings of the film by shortening the final version of the film. Basically, if the film was shorter, it could be screened more times in a day than if it was 45 minutes longer and occupied a theater for a longer period of time. More screenings means more money, and unfortunately, we all know how much Disney likes their money. If this is true, it’s disappointing because Endgame was given a three-hour runtime without any hesitation, and I think wrapping up the finale to the biggest film franchise of all-time –– sorry, Marvel –– more than justifies 3+ hours.

    Now, granted, I’d watch a five-hour Star Wars film if it existed and I realize that, the longer a film is, the less marketable it generally is to people –– although Endgame, Avatar and Titanic all say otherwise –– but I think The Rise of Skywalker would’ve greatly benefitted from additional footage. There are rumors that a “J.J. cut” exists, and I’m not saying I necessarily believe that one does, but I’d be interested to see what extra content there is if an extended version of the film does exist.
     
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  15. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Brandon switched to editing on set with a mobile unit for the entire film, and ended up deciding that's how she's going to work from now on anytime she can.
    In a podcast interview, ... the rough cut?...I forget, she said that she was never restrained or under the gun in terms of editing to get things done.
    She mentioned that it was fast paced, but that she likes that anyway, and it didn't affect her feel of the edit. She says she felt more connected to the continuity of the film than usual from being on set so much, and in her view it made a better cut of a film.

    There's no JJ cut. There's deleted scenes like always, but no, there's no extra cut.

    Abrams has never made such a thing as a "director's cut" alternative to the theatrical release.
    His "director's cut" is always the theatrical release. He enjoys the puzzle box of the business, and loves trying to squeeze a story into the boundaries.
    He's an industry golden boy. He doesn't have a different view of a film other than what the whole production, including the producers, wants.

    I don't think you could get him to cut twice. He's far too much a chipmunk on crack in energy and attention to bother with that.
    I'm sure Star Wars is already a warm and distant memory to him now.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  16. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Commander

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    Nothing is ever really set up in Star Wars, let's be honest. Or, if things are set up in one film, they might be abandoned in the next, however slight or small the ideas. I've been reading a lot of ROTJ and its production lately, and there was a lot of improv thinking and filling in the details in that film.

    Unless they get really creative, like with KOTOR 1 or KOTOR 2, or they just focus on a normal story, like Filoni has been doing with his content, i.e. The Clone Wars, Rebels, Star Wars: Resistance, and The Mandalorian, things are going to be all over the place, likely. That's because Star Wars has had several retcons it has had to accept over the years, too. It lacks a backbone.

    I'm less concerned about set-ups, though they are important, and more about the essence of character. I think that TESB is fabulously set-up with Vader's motivations throughout the film. He is focused on finding Luke from the film's beginning, and it culminates with his offer and reaching out to Luke near the film's end. Part of the reason why I like it so much, is the focus on his character throughout the film, combined with the set-up.

    I can't say if I am a fan of set-ups so much, after Marvel makes such a big deal out of Thanos, the infinity stones, etc. It doesn't really interest me that Marvel decides to make Super Smash Bros. films of its characters to lynch pin the movies throughout its phases. If the emphasis is on set-ups over characterization, I don't think that's really appealing to me.
     
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  17. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    After the arsenal of "making of" and production books and documentation that I've read (a lot and still more to come)....

    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  18. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    This and it's starting to feel like we're going round in circles.
     
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  19. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    I don’t know if there’s anything in TROS that could truly be considered ‘sinful’. I feel about it the way I do TPM: a decent rough draft to a far better movie that we’ll never get to see. It needed more time in the oven. It’s an unset soufflé. Tastes alright as is, but obviously didn’t take the time to become what it wanted to be. Most likely because it didn’t have that luxury.

    I can’t imagine including deleted scenes or extending the runtime would have improved the overall product in any way. It would still be a tenuous collection of half-baked ideas . . . just longer.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Hehe.
    I feel that way about nearly every Star Wars film.
    I actually have a rule of thumb that I use as the "What makes a good Star Wars film for Jayson".

    The more stress, and the more the production had its back against the wall, and the less time they had to refine everything, the more Star Warsy the film will feel to me.
    The more time to do nearly anything or everything everyone wants, the more relaxed and laid back the production was, and the more time they had to refine everything, the less Star Warsy the film will feel to me.

    The only notable exception to this so far has been R1, but that's a different story. That was the first attempt at not telling a saga story, and it really missed the mark for me in feeling Star Warsy. But that's OK.

    I think my ideal Star Wars film ends with someone in the hospital from their body breaking down from stress.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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