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The Rise of Skywalker's Biggest Sin

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Use the Falchion, Apr 19, 2020.

  1. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    if by “removing agency” you are referring to destiny, it doesn’t always do so. It greatly depends on how it’s written. Honestly, with Star Wars, destiny doesn’t bother me..but perhaps that’s a factor in my belief in something similar.

    that said, and perhaps this could also be what you mean, Rey and Ben being essentially pure dark side/light side creations is a pretty poor way to do go about the destiny bit (not to mention that Anakin being a creation of the Force was became a bit of a joke point, so why it try it again?).

    as for the scene, clunky, earlier draft dialogue aside (how early of a draft, idk), idk how I feel about Luke haunting Ben. We haven’t really seen Force ghosts appear to darksiders, perhaps due to their natures, but it feels weird to me that Luke alone does it.

    On topic: i’d put RoS’s biggest fault, personally, as an over-reliance on fanservice. It may not be the biggest flaw objectively, but that was what drew me the most (plus being bugged as Rey being Palpatine...which may count as fanservice?)
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    We've been down this road before. We watch Star Wars for different things. It's why there will never be a unifying Star Wars movie. I had a thread about it. We all see, want and need different things in our Star Wars.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2020, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2020 ---
    Removing agency is Kylo having always been Palpatine's puppet.
    Removing agency is making Rey into a fetch quest hero of special royal bloodlines with nothing to do for herself except exist.
    The characters lack choices. Things are decided for them. If you want to throw this up to "destiny" then that's on you. It's far lazier than anything in the Trevorrow script IMO.

    As for haunting Kylo...we know Force Ghosting is mostly a lightside ability. But nothing says (iirc) only the lightside can see them. Luke has always operated outside the traditional Jedi ways...except for the one time he tried to rebuild the Jedi order and failed. So "not having been done before" isn't something I buy as to why this wouldn't work.
     
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  3. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Yep.
    It's what makes the world go 'round, and I am quick to admit that I have a lesser-than-popular taste that rides more towards camp, up-beat, and adventure romps as my first class, and my second class being Wandering Watches (I don't think there's a name for them properly, but it's the kind of movie that meanders slowly and quietly along with no desperate drive to anything - mostly just a slow and steady progress that just witnesses in the most passive way possible...mostly old films as it's mostly a dead form of story telling anymore, but Once Upon a Time in the West fits in here, but so does Monsieur Verdoux [1947], My Dinner with Andre, Lost in Translation, American Graffiti, The Scarlett Pimpernel [1934], etc...) with my only "dark" cross-over in my spice cupboard being the likes of sci-fi psychological thrillers with a philosophical spin (Alien, Prometheus, Maniac, Soylent Green, Altered States, etc...).

    But I'm just not all that interested in straight Action films all that often (with some notable exceptions - and Action/Comedy usually is a Yes for me), nor am I typically all that interested in super hero films (actually about the only one I've bothered to buy is Dr. Strange - from all history of the genre), nor dark comedy, "Hard R" action, nor for that matter Drama, Horror, or Crime genres. Political thrillers typically bore me due to being incredibly redundant in placating to "suspense", and these days Fantasy has barely anything that catches my interest as most go the route of extreme melodrama, stress for stress' sake, and/or "Hard R" action just to be "provocative" (Game of Thrones falls in to this camp).

    So yes, I do have a less-than-typical stance. Which is also why I fully expect that I will stop liking Star Wars shows coming out here in the next few years as I have complete certainty that they will stop being allegorically poetic in narratively interesting and symbolic manners, stop commenting on cinematic history, lower their romping adventure in exchange for more and more drama and stress with the focus being on "cool character powers" and "cool looking worlds".

    Which is fine - there's a ton of folks who have never gotten their Star Wars square in the mouth the way they've been wanting and it's plenty fair enough that they get it. Just not anywhere close to my bag of interest.

    But as you said, there's a variety of taste out there.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  4. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    Ah, in that regard. I mean, technically it can fall under destiny, though I’d put that as a pour version, much like I personally might put Trevorrow’s, who had that Kylo had been molded into some ultimate of the Sith by the works of Palpatine, the big super long living Sith, etc. Let’s be real, Ben was always being manipulated from early on even before Palpatine was reintroduced. He had a choice back then, he made a choice to not just kill Rey, he made a choice to return to the light.

    technically, while Rey, yes, was subject to fetch questiness, she was also battling her own temptation of darkness between her aggressive fighting and then, much to my sadness, her own lineage of darkness. Her situation is shown best, imo, with the training droid, the Death Star battle, and her talk with luke on ahch-to, with resolution at the Throne of the Sith. Her agency is in her final decision to fight and not join Palpatine. Even if I disagree with the choices, I can still see that.

    while nothing says that Force Ghosts can’t appear to Darksiders, at least in the case with this script it feels odd. I know it’s not intended as a taunt, but it did feel that way to me. It just feels..off, as it is, even with the animation version.

    edit: in the end, what works for some may not work for everyone, as everyone has different views and preferences on things.
     
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  5. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Kylo Ren is the closest thing TROS has to a character arc. He makes one choice (and it's telegraphed so bad by the return of Palpatine it's a courtesy to call it a choice.)
    Kylo Ren was being manipulated by Snoke. He made a choice to overthrow Snoke and seize the throne for himself and then almost instantly in the next movie he's back to being second fiddle to Palpatine. He lost his agency. Now he's just doing Palpatine's bidding.

    As for Rey, sure we are told she is struggling with this stuff but at no point does the film slow down enough to let it sink in and let the information progress. She "kills" Chewie, the audience immediately assured Chewie didn't die, Rey is upset. We spend roughly 2 minutes with this. We know Chewie is okay so really any tension is lifted. We can all forgive Rey instantly. But even then, this is all still being driven by Palpatine. Rey isn't the one making choices here. The plot is. She is literally just a vehicle for the plot. The time for Rey to run is right after killing Chewie. Leaving her friends behind. Unable to focus on anything else. While there she can talk with Luke. While the rest of the team goes about the plot. Then late in the film we find out, with the characters Chewie is alive absolving Rey.
    Instead what we get is, Chewie dies and then we immediate flee. Rey and Finn kind of talk but not really because we have to go and find someone to translate the dagger, because that's important. [We find out about Chewie here] So while doing this quest, they find out Chewie is alive. Then we have a battle with Rey and Ren and "You're a wizard Palpatine Harry! Rey!" Oh no! She's the Emperor's Grandbaby! Does she now flee to Luke? Not yet. She has to go fetch quest another doohickie first. She battles Ren again now after a vision that doesn't really do anything we didn't already have. Now she flees to Luke.

    You can make a checklist of Star Wars things they wanted to fit in and see how they drug out the story to fit every one of them in.
    Family Reveal? Check.
    Desert planet? Check.
    Death Star? Check.
    Main Protagonist battling evil version of themselves? Check.
     
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  6. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    This is interesting. For me TROS is just like that, a boring (video game) action flick. We jump from one action scene to the next. The movie feels like 10 minutes of action followed by 30 seconds of actual plot. This is obviously exaggerated by me, but you get my point.

    Collin's script on the other side feels more lika a George Lucas approach. More talking and world building. It's also more focused on the characters.
     
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  7. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I'll write more tomorrow, but TROS is far from a straight action film.

    A straight action film is every Seagal movie.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    I don’t fully disagree with you, but that’s my impression. She’s constantly pushing the problem aside to try and complete the mission, with Kylo bringing it up again. Her having a second vision of dark her after seeing herself on the throne with Kylo is a weird choice, but it was nice getting to actually see it (still mad she didn’t make her own version of that vision saber). The thing is that when she does fight Kylo, and nearly dies and then almost kills him, she’s realizing herself how far she’s going, how susceptible she’d be to the Dark Side. Was it the best done? No. But that’s what I see within the fetch quests. Is it a stretch? .....maybe, but that’s what I’m sticking with.

    I do agree on the Chewie bait and switch. At least let it sit until Kijimi...but some of that is more a pacing issue which..is another issue I have.

    On Kylo...I guess it’s just me, but I never got this. Yes, he’s working for Palpatine, but grudgingly because he wants the fleet. Yet he’s still pretty much making his own choices. The only things Palpatine tells him are to kill Rey (he’s still not really trying to kill her, except maybe the Death Star battle, as he still wants her to join him), and that she’ll be going to the Death Star. The entire time, he’s only working for Palpatine on the surface to get what he wants, while trying to do what he wants to do.

    Don’t get me wrong, I fully see where you’re coming from, and might agree on some points, but ultimately I accept I can’t change what happened, so I’ve decided to keep working with what I have. I just also don’t know (since this was the point where I had jumped in) if DotF would’ve worked better than TRoS from what I’m reading (and most of my issue came less from dialogue and more plot points, like destroying the universe and creating a new one and a lack of redemption option).

    I don’t disagree here. I mean, that part is just JJ being JJ. I dislike it, but that’s how he is. It’s like how TFA feels so similar to ANH. Like, for me, some of the main things I take issue with are the a) family reveal, because I don’t like that she’s a Palpatine. I’m fine with him being back, not that she’s related. And b) death star level cannons. Could have at least had them be like the cannons of the Fulminatrix and still work on threat level with that many ships.
     
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  9. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    I don't get a Lucas vibe out of either film - to be honest.

    The only film that I truly get a Lucas style vibe out of in the past decade has been Solo, and even that isn't 100% on the nose.

    To be straight up about it, no one has done a Lucasian reprised Star Wars film and I don't think anyone will either - because no one wants to shoot the films the way that Lucas shoots, no one wants to stage a scene they way Lucas stages a scene, and no one wants to edit the way he chooses to edit and direct the edit.

    So I have no interest in determining which film is more Lucasian than the other because the answer really is, "neither".
    They're both far from what Lucas would do.

    I like Abrams' style of filmmaking so I'm no worse for TROS, and he took a swing at two of Lucas' major filmmaking ideals and that's pretty good - that's more than most have done, and it's likely the most we'll get in anything as I don't expect the Lucasian way of filmmaking to suddenly become a stronghold in any production coming up over the next decade.

    More talking and world exposition is not, by the way, the Lucasian way of storytelling, nor is character driven psychoanalytic narratives.

    Lucas' way of storytelling is first and foremost the visual language of film as an abstract means of communication through visual and auditory juxtapositions.
    Pure cinema is how he moves around in storytelling - he's very open about this.

    Each film (Star Wars Trilogies being one total package as "film" in this sentence) he has done takes a different approach to shooting that serves the conceptual approach to his exploration of whatever message he's looking at.

    Star Wars was created with a very interesting idea in its shooting - it set out to mix fantasy and realism together and to do that, the world was treated as if it was real and shot as if it were a documentary chasing after these characters.
    He had 3 cameras rolling at nearly all times and no one acting to the camera (in the originals).

    In the Prequels, it's once again a multi-camera setup, but it's been transitioned to a sort of Lawrence of Arabia inspired shooting.

    In either case, the world exposition wasn't exposition for the sake of exposing a rich world.
    It was that the cameras lingered on those aspects of the world because that is what a documentary would do, that is what Lawrence of Arabia would do (which is dang near also shot like the world's sexiest documentary ever).

    You enter scenes in a documentary by having lines running over setting shots as new areas are presented, you show connected links between movements from one place to another with hand-off's in a documentary (if the documentary is following a travel).

    So that's kind of backwards to point to Star Wars as being more leaned towards world building and talking.
    It's more that Star Wars has more world built behind everything because it's being exposed like a documentation of a real place so that when you tell a Fantasy through that documentary lens, you get an interesting mixture of a fake truth.

    As to the talking and character driven narrative nature. No one believed that in 1977. They thought it was short on talking, a camp romp, and breakneck speed.
    And it was. As I've shown before, 1977 Star Wars flew in as the fastest film in years around it for shot-length, and it notably absented several common place methods of film at that time and its plot was considered comic book and watered down drivel by those who cared about character stories at that time.

    Star Wars is not Taxi in space. It's not Apocalypse Now in space.

    You may very well like the characters and the implications of their study, and to a degree the Prequels could be said to be a bit more of a character driven narrative to an extent as they are very much Lucas really gunning for his Lawrence of Arabia swan song (which was a character study story), but regardless which we go with - Star Wars under Lucas was never a psychoanalytic visceral drama punching you in the face like a Scorsese in Space film.

    It was always heavy on the romp and the camp.
    The slight loss of that in the Prequels was - eh - had to be done to kind of swing for that Lawrence swan song ambition, and a lot of folks really liked that darker and deeper flare, but that is not to be confused with that being all that Lucas' Star Wars is.

    Star Wars was a vehicle for Lucas to explore cinematic expressionism in a varied approach. The OT was essentially designed as a straight documentary of a very romp and camp space story, and the PT was designed to be a romp and camp flavored Lawrence of Arabia in space story.

    It was never required for Star Wars to be a hard hitting character study series - far from it.
    If you like that sort of stuff, rock on - there's absolutely going to be stuff coming out in the next decade that will make you happy.

    But I think it's a complete miss to just dismiss TROS by some claim that it's a straight action film and that DOTF was more Lucasian because it had talking and world building.

    That's a rather large misnomer of identity regarding Star Wars as an artform of film, and TROS has far more in it than just action. Hopping fast through plot does not make something a straight action film.
    There are plenty of slow straight action films out there. Speed does not define the genre of writing.

    And the reason that I dislike straight action, by the way, isn't because it lacks substance, which you seem to be confused into thinking is my issue.
    It's that straight action takes itself too seriously for incredibly stupid things.

    Again, The Crow is the best and most extreme example, or for that matter, any film by/for Seagal.

    Taking yourself so da*n seriously when you're air is being a bada*s is just not interesting to me.
    The closest I can come to enjoying that are Spaghetti Westerns, which only barely slide in because they (the ones worth watching anyway) do some really out there cinematographic art to the point that it's almost French New Wave slammed into a Western film.

    So you can get me to watch a straight action film, if you do some really experimental sh*t with the lens or editing.
    Otherwise, no. I don't have any interest in a straight action film because they can't even laugh at themselves, or celebrate the joy in their stunts or the imagery they are putting onto the screen.

    I need that UP-BEAT energy to be alive in my action, and that comes most often in action-comedy, and/or adventures - not in straight actions.


    And just for clarity, "character driven narrative" isn't the same as melodramatic psycho-analytical character driven narrative.
    There's vast ocean between Captain Blood and Momento.

    Both explore the character of a person, and use the character of a person to move through the story.
    Heck, so does Billy Budd, but Budd and Blood don't dive into the character's psychology in a way that Momento, Taxi, or Apocalypse Now do.

    They don't bathe in the darkness of them without reprieve from it.
    Character driven doesn't mean dark and gritty.

    City Slickers is a character driven story and is very, very far from falling into the clichés and faults that Duel of Fates falls into, and it does because it's a comedy that can laugh at itself without malice or sneer.
    And Blood and Budd can avoid those faults because they explore a philosophical concept of a larger question and keep the camera at a distance from inside of the mind of the character.

    And that's a big difference. The one narrative bone to pick that I have with the ST was that it went too far into diving inside of the mind of the characters and pushed the camera too far into the characters' heads.
    It doesn't keep a distance in place, which even the PT bothered to do, and the PT, like Lawrence, dove more into the mind of its character than the OT did.

    Seeing a script like Fates where it tries to double-down and lean even further into that does not at all interest me. That's pretty much going the opposite direction of my interest.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #89 Jayson, Dec 15, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2020
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  10. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    The thing is that nobody seems to understand is that what colin and derek wrote wasnt the final shooting script. It was a draft, that most likely would have devoped a lot over the course of the next year and half before the cams roll.
    In my personal opinion that draft had potential.
    There was a lot of good stuff in it. Finns arc alone was so much better than what we got in TROS.
    Reys and Kylos arc needed work tho I agree.
     
  11. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    i get that. Some things could’ve worked well. Others I felt were iffy and hoping they would’ve been redone...That conclusion especially
     
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  12. Josh

    Josh Rebel Official

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    I agree, it feels more like a bad video game movie
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    As witty of a snap as that may be, I disagree entirely.

    A video game movie for me is Black Hawk Down, or the last episode of Mando.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
  14. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel Official

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    I could see how this could become a narrative down the road. Slowly over time Rey's decisions are clouded and tend to lean to the dark side, only to reveal that the spirit of Palpatine endured within her. yadda yadda.

    But.... I was under the impression that Palpy needed her to strike him down with anger and hate.
    "With your hatred you will take my life, and you will ascend!"

    By the end she was at peace, and did not strike him down in anger, but in self-defense by deflecting his own lightening back at him. Not saying they couldn't make it work, but not sure people would buy it.
     
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