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The Snoke Schism

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Snoke in TLJ was a topic of heated discussion, and still remains a topic of debate. I've given him some thought and I think I figured out why.

    Snoke was set up much like Palpatine in TFA, but with one caveat. Leia says Snoke got to Ben and was the cause for Ben turning to Kylo (certainly not an exact quote). I think that is where expectation sky rocketed for Snoke. It also inserted the idea that Kylo deserves our sympathy. I think fans bought in and now were awaiting for that idea to develop.

    He was Palpatine-like, but he seemed to be further infused into the story, as TFA gave us a deeper look into Kylo than ANH (or any OT movie) gave us into Vader.

    This was all fine and no one complained after TFA because fans expected the payoff. Take out Leia's line that Snoke got to Ben first, and expectations, I think, would have been reduced.

    Then comes TLJ.

    That set up in TFA had fans expecting something regarding Snoke. That got fans hyper active theorizing about him, and I agree with many that it probably got out of hand.

    When TLJ comes and introduces us to Luke and Ben dynamic, we now have in the back of our minds that Leia line. Now we wonder what did Snoke do to push Kylo to make Luke distrust him to that degree and push that whole scenario over the edge.

    So after TFA, Snoke was no longer merely Palpatine, he was Palpatine +, because he was involved in Kylo in a way Palpatine was never described as being involved with Vader. Snoke helped create Kylo. Now yes, in the OT we discover that Palpatine did the same for Vader, but in the OT we were not privy to that information. In the ST, we get that information but no explanation or exposition on how Snoke influenced or corrupted Ben.

    So far, I don't think there was a major issue. Fans were waiting for the payoff with anxious anticipation. The problem happens when he dies, without the exposition or that Leia line having any deeper meaning. It's a loose end. Now maybe there's exposition in IX on that, but I'd say it's just as likely that there isn't.

    Since then the debate has gone down many roads. Ideas on Snoke and his importance is still hotly contested.

    I think at this point we're left with 2 big questions that demand answers by those who are unsatisfied with Snoke's arc. Those questions are where was he all this time? The other, what and how did he do to affect Ben this way.

    I don't care so much about the first one, as a throw away line can explain that easily. The second one I am curious about, because it matters to the ST. The ST is built (at least in part) on our sympathy for Ben, his potential redemption, and that all swirls around his conflict with Luke. That is affected by Snoke involvement, which has yet to be explained except in the plainest broad strokes in TFA. A single line by Leia, but a powerful line that has sparked at least part of the fandom's curiosity of Snoke, his powers and his influence. It matters because the details of his involvement with Ben could determine just how much we sympathize with Kylo. Without those details, the sympathy, at least in regards to Snoke's involvement, is baseless beyond a very unspecific line by Leia.

    My intention for this thread is not to stir the pot, but it's my understanding of feelings from parts of the fandom. I see both sides of the argument here pretty clearly. I think some just believe Leia and apply whatever influence to Ben that is needed in their mind that would or could drive him to his actions in the flashbacks of TLJ. Others need more.

    Curious to hear your thoughts and see if my reasoning tracks for you, or clarifies anything at all.
     
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  2. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Sensitive

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    I also focus on that Leia line In TFA as a source of Snoke-drama.

    But to me, it's not as much about how Snoke turned Kylo, but it's about the fact that all the classic heroes seem to know who Snoke is.

    Through the OT, our perspective characters are mostly Han, Luke and Leia. If you go into TFA assuming this is still true, you're left with the strange sensation that you don't have the info you should have. All these characters, who you've been tracking with for three films, suddenly know more than you, leaving you with the impression that you should still know what they know, that some detail has been left out. If Han, Luke and Leia knew as little about Snoke as we know, I doubt there would be such a curfuffle about Snoke's origins.

    The solution is to understand that the sequels make a bold choice. Han, Luke and Leia are no longer our perspective characters. Rey, Poe and Finn are now our perspective characters. We know as much about Snoke as Rey does.
     
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  3. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    It's possible that Luke & Leia knew Snoke through the Force. Naturally Leia tells Han.

    Slightly off topic but Snoke was meant to show sympathy for Ben? Everthing Kylo has done was 4 himself. Killing Han so he can prove himself to Snoke. Then screwing around with Rey's emotions just so he can assassinate Snoke.

    He's unworthy of sympathy.
     
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  4. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    I agree, and I think that's probably the 'mistake' some may be making right there. As you say, Rey and Finn are our perspective characters, not Han and Leia. (Although I'd say Poe less so in this regard)

    Han and Leia are the Ben Kenobi 'old timers' who talk of the past.
     
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  5. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Some of the problem is the need now a days from some to have every single bit of information. We as fans crave to know all the details even if they are not necessary. The other thing to consider is that today compared to in the past SW encompasses multiple forms of media. We are likely going to get Snoke’s story. It just won’t be completely spelled out in the movies. There is still a chance we will get some exposition in IX as the rest of Kylo’s story arc is completed. Once IX is finished and released we will likely get a Snoke novel or comic down the line.
     
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  6. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Sensitive

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    Another big ingredient of the schism, and this one I think puts more blame on the film than the fans:

    TFA left us with two big questions: Who is Snoke, and who is Rey? (some people, to defend TLJ, claim the big question is "What happened to Luke?" But that was never a huge question compared to these two). These questions, prompted by the film, drove fan discussion for two years.

    And TLJ effectively gives us non-answers to both questions. Who is Rey? Nobody. Who is Snoke? Doesn't matter, he's dead. I think the film could afford a non-answer to one of these, but to give non-answers to both questions left fans unsatisfied.

    Granted, we didn't need answers for TLJ to be a good film in a critical sense. But Star Wars is bold and pulpy and surprising. It's about bombastic space battles and big reveals and dramatic mythology. Simply, it's fun. And the non-answers of TLJ feel more like "taking your medicine" than like fun. As if you should feel bad for your speculations.
     
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  7. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I would argue that Rey being a random (nicer term than nobody) was an answer. Many of us argued that signs were pointing towards that all the way up to the release of TLJ. The problem was that many fans either didn’t like the answer or can’t accept it.

    Now who was Snoke has not been answered. There is a possibility we still get more info about him in IX as we learn more about Kylo’s story. The big issue with Snoke is the disagreement among fans of whether it is important or not whether we get more backstory of Snoke in the ST.
     
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  8. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I've posted in the past that I don't have much sympathy for Kylo. However, in my discussions with others in this forum, I see a lot of people do have sympathy for him. The sympathy seems mostly derived from that Leia line. Kylo is an abuser, but he's also a victim of Snoke, seems to be the premise. Thus Snoke is the ultimate abuser, and that I believe comes full circle back to Leia's line.

    If Leia never says the line, then we assume Ben made his decision on his own without outside influence. Think Anakin if Sideous didn't manipulate but Anakin makes the same decisions to be Vader. We'd have much less sympathy for Anakin and without Leia's line, I think many would have less sympathy for Ben. The assumption is that Snoke had an influence on Ben, and then it's our imagination that creates how much of an influence that is, derived somewhat from their interactions in the movies. The problem I see is that we don't know what Snoke did to get to Ben. Did he appear in dreams? Was he disguised as the janitor and using some force suggestions on him? Was he disguised as a friend of similar age and was simply a bad influence? Did he somehow use the force to twist his mind, or make Ben do cringy things like kill an animal while trying to levitate it, then using the force to give him a feeling of satisfaction? I can come up with dozens of scenarios, but this part has not been explained. We don't know what Luke saw in Ben to make him take those steps, and we don't know what gave Luke suspicion to even look inside his nephews mind. We don't know if Luke himself was influenced by Snoke. We don't know if Ben did anything questionable in the hours, days , weeks, months just before Luke's intervention, or if it was just a feeling on Luke's part. Did Luke just sense it or was there an action that Luke based his decision on?

    Throughout both movies there's are recurring attempts to make the audience sympathize for Kylo. His doubt and appearance of regret at at killing his father (though I was never sure if it was staged, Kylo acting instead of Adam acting). His hesitation and decision not to kill his mother, the look of pain when his wingmen make the shot. There are many looks throughout that give the impression he isn't lost, that there's still good in him, like there had been in his grandfather.

    I think as viewers we're supposed to feel sympathy for him at least on some level. Maybe that's a reason why the movie doesn't work for some, is due to that lack of sympathy for Ben. Because if we feel sympathy for Ben, it allows us to better understand Rey's motivations, as well as others. Without that sympathy, Rey's actions don't quite work so well and seem even more foolish or out of character. Motivated more to move the plot forward than a logical reaction on her part. I think at least a healthy amount of doubt in Kylo's evilness is required, and for me, I don't think I'm feeling it to the same extent as others, and to quote Yoda "that is why I fail." lol

    I see Kylo more akin to Joffrey from GoT then Vader. He seems to me to be an entitled aristocratic brat, gifted beyond imaginings, with family support who chooses wrong and is weak willed enough to allow himself to be led down a dark path, despite all the support and gifts life (the force, money, fame, family, love ect) has given him (granted some of this is head canon on my part, just my perception of things however).

    The counter argument has to be that what Leia speaks of simply overpowered Ben (but I would argue that's head canon), and that those around him failed him on different levels. Han couldn't relate. Leia was over protective and made some bad decisions trying to shelter him (my head canon here) by not telling Luke right away. Luke wasn't properly trained or wise enough to properly support Ben. Under the pressure of his own doubts at his ability to build an academy, those doubts were made greater when he didn't have an answer to help his nephew (again, my head canon).

    It all comes down to what Snoke did.

    If a serial killer gets caught tomorrow and says he did all this because his mom or dad denied him candy one day at the grocery store, we won't have much sympathy. If he says he did all those killings because his mom or dad was a prostitute and/or his pimp and abused him physically as a child as well as sexually, we'll feel more sympathy. That's essentially Kylo, we just don't know which of those sad stories applies to him and we've filled the gap with our own head canon, or rendered it irrelevant due to lack of exposition. Thus we sympathize or we don't.

    I think this argument holds true if you don't give those arguing this the benefit of the doubt. If you assume all people who want more information want every little detail, then you are not allowing for nuance. Some people for example, call on knowing where Snoke was all that time, from the OT to the ST. I don't much care because a throw away line can fix that easily (A couple examples could be, in a Jedi prison form the time of the Old Republic, the Emperor kept him there because he didnt' want the competition. Or, he was found by Thrawn just after Palpatine died, in the Unknown regions, on a planet that had not yet developed space travel , or ect... multiple ways to explain that). I'll give you that IX could offer some exposition, and that maybe once the series is done, maybe I'll concede that it was beautifully well done by with holding that information, but right now I feel dissatisfied, because I don't feel I can form a firm opinion on Kylo one way or another without that exposition.

    However, that argument is counter intuitive to the opposite argument, the dismissive one that no exposition is needed, that those who want to know merely want to know every little detail... those fans are nitpicking. I think those details are important to the story, as it affects Kylo and Luke individually, as well as the whole Kylo/Luke dynamic. By extentions, the Luke/Rey and Rey/Kylo dynamic, as well as possibly why the force Chose Rey to counter his darkness. Kylo's story seems to be the driving force, while Rey's is the answering force, thus I feel I need to understand the force behind Kylo's motivations, and the events that led to and now drive those motivations to be able to appreciate the counter reaction from the Force to Choose Rey.

    I hadn't thought of that consciously, but you're right, that is strange. As some have stated after, it may be due to our needing to look at this movie through Rey and Finn's eyes. If that's the case though, I feel JJ and RJ likely underestimated how attached fans were to the OT3, how hard it would be for parts of the fandoms to disassociate to those legendary characters. This is not fault of the part of Rey or Finn, its merely due to the legendary status of those characters. If that is indeed the intent, it would be cool if they had the footage to make a cut that had the OT3 as the main perspective.

    I agree we had an answer for Rey. Personally I didn't have an issue with that answer other then it didn't explain how quickly and adeptly she's learned the force and skills within the force. I've mostly withheld my criticism of that because it's quite possible there will be more on that in IX. I'm aware there's a Force Download explanation in the books, I'm hoping JJ comes up with something better in IX. I'm prepared to be disappointed on that front lol.

    As for the last part, I think you hit the nail on the head. Is Snokes involvement with Ben adequately explained? I think it only is if you allow yourself some head canon on how he influenced Ben as a child, or at least before Luke tried to help him. I think that's about the best compromise that we can find on the subject. If you allow your head canon to lead you to believe that Snoke darkened his mind and gave him dark thoughts, to whatever extreme works for you to take Kylo to where he is at the beginning of TFA, then it works. I also think that's a valid argument, to just accept that Snoke did and it resulted in Kylo's decisions. It does lack some depth, as in the nuance between how much was Ben's choice and Snoke's influence, but it does "work".

    However, I don't think that accepting that that was good enough for some dismisses the need others feel to get more exposition, more detail into how, why ect... did Snoke do it and the OT3 reacted the way they did to Snoke's corruption of Ben. Because the actions and reactions could play directly into our suspension of disbelief of the events within the ST. For myself, I find the idea fascinating, that the Force could be used in such a way. It's a few steps beyond a mere mind trick, you're not simply numbing for a few minutes, but having a life long impact. I'd like the ST to explore that, because that power, if that's how it went down, would be a fascinating idea to explore. It brings a whole new nuance to the old saying "The Devil made me do it." lol. I'm not mocking it however, I think it really would be cool to explore, and I do think it does have an impact on the ST, because I'm sure there must be a resistance to it on some level.

    It also plays into some old EU ideas, that Palpatine had corrupted the thoughts of the senate using the Force, as well as those around him as Emperor. I'm jus not sure if it's the same idea, and it seems at least somewhat different because if I remember correctly the Emperor was able to do this due to their proximity. I believe even Mara suffered that kind of influence. It being re-introduced, but now at long range I find fascinating. It could explain why the Republic was stupid enough to dismantle their military among other things.
     
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    i'm one of the people who has never cared about Snoke and believe he's irrelevant to the story except in the fact of his turning Ben and building the FO to set it all in motion, which, as @Jaxxon said is information that our perspective characters (Rey, Finn for the most part) don't care about.

    Snoke is a withered old Force predator who inveigled Ben away from parents that Ben believed didn't understand or care about him, and a master who he thinks tried to kill him. Snoke gave this lost boy a "home" and a purpose--the things he craves most. he preyed on Ben's sense of destiny to do it and Ben, who was frightened and vulnerable, fell for it hook line and sinker. this is sufficient understanding and well underscored through TFA and TLJ. i don't see why we need more explanation. even if it's additionally pounded into our heads over and over throughout the EU thus far, what's in the movies is plenty sufficient to put this fallout together.

    the question of Rey's parents was always a non-starter for me. i never believed she was anyone other than a random Force-sensitive girl and never saw any evidence of anything otherwise in TFA. i did see a lot of people putting 1 and 1 together to make 4, though, so i understand the disappointment. but that's on the speculators. the movies never promised Rey was anyone other than a scavenger girl from Jakku. the big "mystery" about her is that she is powerfully FS. that's all. that's why Maz asks after her, that's why the saber calls to her, that's why Ben is drawn to her, that's why Snoke asks for her, etc. nobody cares who she is or where she came from; they care about the fact that she's a ticking time bomb of power and she doesn't even know it yet.
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I agree with a lot of this except for one piece: it's not just on the fans. It's also not just on Rian. It's on LFL/Disney. I don't think anyone is going to argue with any sincerity or credibility that they didn't directly or indirectly stoke such speculation (because it was good marketing buzz for the movie - if everyone had loved TLJ, we would all be talking about how genius the marketing arm of Disney was). JJ is known for mystery boxes. If they knew they meant for each director to take the trilogy their own direction (with no obligation to invest in completing the questions put forward by their predecessors) they shouldn't have let JJ "color outside the lines" with his open ended mysteries. I'm honestly not sure there is actually an incentive in the story to introduce Snoke at all in TFA if he simply going to serve as a milestone for Kylo's progress towards the darkside in TLJ. If he's only introduced to us in TLJ, I think the people who argue who Snoke is is unimportant have a much better foundation.

    At this point, in my opinion, any case made to argue we didn't need more from Snoke going forward, would also serve as an argument for why we don't need Snoke in comic books going forward. My fear however is that Snoke's demise will be looked upon like the demise of Maul, and that people will think, "we killed him too early, let's bring him back" and that is the WORST possible option.

    Nothing good comes from the Star Wars Pet Semetary... ever.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2019 ---
    This seems like an unfair take. I mean did people speculate? Yes. Did they speculate based on specific tidbits deliberately provided by the franchise? Absolutely. Believing that Rey could be Luke's daughter wasn't far fetched at all based on information provided in the marketing of TFA and the actual movie itself. That it didn't pan out that way is not an indicator that fans simply ran wild with unfounded speculation. It was in both the movie and the marketing.

    If JJ writes the entire trilogy himself, I doubt we have this disconnect in TLJ (and I doubt we are even having this conversation). Presumably, JJ would be obligated to begin to answer some of his own mystery boxes instead of having another writer come in who was disinterested in the questions and answer.

    I don't think people had a problem with the direction of the trilogy (thus far) so much as they were unhappy with being deliberately stoked one direction only to pull the rug from underneath them with answers and reveals that were underwhelming and dissatisfying.
     
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  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I mostly agree with your first paragraph, the second thought I find there are some small leaps that could be argued are not in the movies. Or maybe I'm just missing something.

    Snoke did something to Ben according to Leia, but we're not clear on what. I don't remember it specifically saying it turned him against his parents, unless you can find me a quote that says otherwise. I would suggest that that is an assumption, maybe a logical one, but still an assumption that isn't detailed in the movies. He had a home and purpose and chose another, mostly because of what Snoke did, whatever that was, because there is no detail of what that was. He chose Snoke over his family, and I think that's the key thing that isn't detailed or clear, at least not to me. I can accept that he did, I can even accept that he was fooled and manipulated, but garnering sympathy, or at least how much, for that decision requires details imo. I find it hard from my perspective to see how someone could have turned me against my family and loved ones, and I'm very curious as to how Snoke managed it. To what extent he manifested that power of persuasion.

    Did Ben have a chance, or did Ben have a choice I think is my core question. Was it akin to mind trick where Ben did evil things by Snoke's suggestion, remembered doing them but didn't know he was being controlled? Or was it more Snoke telling him lies and Ben choosing to believe them? Again, context matters, because if Ben has been getting these messages since infancy, constantly being told his family didn't love him ect.. that matters. But the fact is all this is head canon, because we don't know how Snoke did it. We just know he did something. As for the EU, I don't think this explanation should be there, it should be in a movie. Kylo/Ben is not Vader and not treated like Vader, he's more Anakin in the OT. I think if you want viewers to have some sympathy for him, you need to add the details to his fall from grace to where he is. I feel like we're entering episode 3 without seeing Anakin in Episode 2. The lack of exposition on those details makes it feel to me like there is something missing. I can't quite sympathize with Kylo, because I don't really know what to sympathize with.

    He believes his master and uncle tried to kill him. Did Snoke manipulate his perception of those events? A lot of questions surround Kylo is all I'm getting at. There are no specifics, and maybe that's intentional, maybe it's not, I'm not sure. I just feel after TLJ and all the subversions, that I'm once again being led by the nose with Kylo, being forced to make some assumptions, build some head canon, though not large, to make things fit properly together. I have a hard time making any determination on Kylo whether he can turn back to good or go all out evil, because I don't know the details of his choosing Snoke over his family. To me, those details are important.

    As for Rey, I assumed Luke was her father, though I don't think I was fixed on that idea. I was open to whatever reveal and didn't mind her not having known parentage. I mostly thought Luke was her father due to the musical scores, the similar start on a desert planet, and that the movie ended with their meeting. Her link to the lightsaber too. Out of all the twists in TLJ, her not being Luke's daughter was one I didn't mind. I don't applaud it as some act of genius, I just see it as believable and acceptable. It's more of a surprise in the sense because Luke being Vader's son and Leia's brother in a whole galaxy seems amazing coincidence, and that coincidence has since become something attached to SW. In all that galaxy it makes perfect sense that the galaxy isn't that small and that everyone is not related lol. It's not genius, it's just a change on theme so something less complicated, more simple and normal and less 1 in a million chance kind of thing. Its mundane, not to down talk it, but it isn't wonderful, it's just the most likely answer instead of going for the fantastic. It's a subversion on those fantastical ideas we have associated with SW. So like I said, I find it acceptable, just nothing special.

    I also agree in light of finding out she's not anyone's daughter, that the rest of the context within TFA changes, and it all works. I don't fault people for speculating and trying to tie things together. It's like trying to identify foreshadowing before the moment of its reveal. Sometimes you can, other times it catches you off guard. As for her being a ticking time bomb, I think that's arguable. Some people argue that she isn't all that powerful, others argue that she's all powerful, or OP. I haven't seen anything to suggest she's a time bomb. I have heard that she's the light to confront Kylo's darkness, and Luke says she's powerful, so for those who try to down play her power I find that strange. I understand it as being a counter to MS accusations, but I think they overcompensate by down playing her power. However, nothing about that suggests a bomb, but a weapon/solution with a specialized task. Luke was intended to be used as a weapon, and he subverted expectations in RotJ. I think Rey will likely do something similar. She's expected to face Kylo's darkness, negate it, and the assumption is by combat, with one or both their deaths, or by one or both changing and either joining the other or becoming something entirely different. All I'm trying to say is that it isn't at all clear what Rey is. I think there's an assertion of power, raw power, that's even said in the films. I don't know if that's beyond Kylo's or merely matching him. Going based on the movies, I'd say beyond based on their encounters, but not overwhelmingly so.
     
  12. FN-3263827

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    he would have disappointed you.
    you can't stop needing them.
    they threw you away like garbage.

    etc.

    everything Ben says is self-reflective. everything. that's not a leap. that's how Driver is playing it and he's even said so: Ben's a kid who had everything, but doesn't feel it. he only feels the lack: of guidance, of protection, of love. he's angry and afraid and taking it out on the people he believes should have been there for him.

    maybe you can't imagine being turned against your parents. most teenagers rebel. Ben's case is different because this is the gffa: he not only has rebelled, but he's taken up with an extemist military faction that has him brainwashed. and no, he was not exactly a teenager when it happened, but we have heard over and over that Ben was problematic and that's why he was sent with Luke. no, we don't really know the details, but i don't see how they matter. you want something to hold onto and point at, but Ben is the sum of many things (like all people are). his environment, his parents, the influence of his uncle, the fact that he's FS, the secrets his family has kept from him, etc.

    for some of us context does not matter. Ben has made terrible terrible choices because he feels this is what he can do to put some order or control or guidance to his life.
    you either understand that and can commiserate with how easy it is for one bad choice to follow another until you totally feel trapped (it's too late), or you don't. if you've never felt like you made such terrible choices that you could never get out of them, he's not likely to resonate with you, maybe no matter what.

    only because you're saying the questions have to answered. to me, it's all there in the subtext. not the crystalline details, but the family dynamic, the ease with which Snoke seduced a confused and frightened boy. and again, if you wanted to support that with evidence from the EU, it's all there: Leia's disconnect, Han's constant fear of screwing up, Ben's Darkness. it's a nice cocktail for disaster.

    i think he can be turned because Star Wars is about hope. not sure he will ever be 100% aligned on the Light, but he will find a balance.
    Rey needs that balance too. so does the galaxy. she can't win by killing him. he can't win by killing her. they're going to have to sort it out.

    to the FO (and therefore of concern to Maz--with good reason, her castle is destroyed not 30 minutes later). the FO appears to be hunting down and destroying FS threats. it's implied by Ren's and Snoke's reaction to her power that they consider her dangerous, and again, this is supported in the EU. and in TLJ the whole Darkness rises and Light to meet it, that's Snoke saying Rey (in his perception) is considerably dangerous (to Ren, Snoke thinks, not to himself, because he's stupid that way).

    [​IMG]
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 21, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 21, 2019 ---
    did people get angry because the things they speculated on didn't come to pass?
    first of all marketing is marketing. it tells lies to sell things. anyone who thinks otherwise just set themselves up for disappointment.
    as for what was "promised" in the movie? nothing was promised. people made assumptions.
    rather than blame the film, maybe they should accept responsibility for that.
    i don't know man, this whole idea of "pulling the rug" and "stoking a direction" ~ i get what you're saying, but we as an audience have no say in the matter except for how we feel at the end of the day. we can be disappointed if we want, but that's ultimately a choice.

    this goes back to the whole: yeah, i didn't get what i wanted out of Finn in TLJ in some parts, but in others i did.
    that's probably true of most of the characters. i got something different, unexpected. loved some, liked some, was iffy on some.
    bravo Rian Johnson. he didn't just feed me fait accompli action soup; instead he gave me something to think about and room for the characters to keep growing. room for something else to happen.
    other people feel differently. but again: that's entirely up to them.
     
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  13. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    absolutely.

    they have a strong and unusual connection. He can't be what she wants, and she can't be what he wants.
    when they next meet, they find compromise or someone dies. they sort it out.. or they don't
     
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  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    In a way, I think that's all many of us who don't connect with Ben/Kylo is a little acknowledgement that everything isn't there, that everything isn't clear. So often we hear that everything is there, there's a suggestion there that could be taken that we just don't get it, that we're not "smart" enough to pick up on things. I don't think it's that at all. I think a lot of disagreements on matters over TLJ would have been smoothed out had the fandom been able to concede on some points more often. Sometimes it's a matter of world view, sometimes matter of life experience, personal or otherwise. What I find frustrating about Kylo is that I want to like him, I just need it a little more crystalline. I have no issue that it works for you and many others, I've never argued that. I've only ever argued that it doesn't work for me and put down the reasons why, which usually amounts to exposition.

    I realize when I'm trying to write my thoughts on this, I probably don't have the exact word. It's something akin to head canon, making leaps, but even as I write them, I know those words are not perfect. So I realize the sword swings both ways, as when someone reads me saying those words it triggers (in a minor way lol) as it suggests RJ failed, even if that's not what exactly what I'm saying. It's more, RJ failed for me, but I'm totally okay if it works for you. He didn't add enough exposition for me to be able to follow the bread crumbs and get to where you guys are at, because to me those details matter. Of course it's okay that those details don't matter to you, but it's nice to get at least some acknowledgement that you understand things are not crystalline and that's basically where our opinions differ.

    I've never read EU, whether books or comics, while the movies were playing. Though I am sometimes curious about some of those details, I tend to delve into them after the main series is over. I've always felt the movies should stand on their own without that exposition. That's not just for SW, that's for most entertainment I watch. I tend to avoid spoilers more often than not too. Thanks for replying so concisely, I feel we reached at least some understanding here.
     
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  15. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    just to be clear, it's not about "smart", it is about personal experience (like you said).
    if you have ever intimately known someone like Ren or been him yourself, you really don't need more than what's in the movie.
    the EU is nice to have in support of it, but it's all there in the film.

    part of the reason this debate about Ren specifically is so heated is that some people absolutely see him as the victim here and that provokes strong emotions in other people who see him as a spoiled brat who, with parents like Han and Leia, should have grown up to be a prince. also, he killed Han Solo and people won't forgive him that, even though Han himself did.

    yes Ben's made it all the worse with his terrible choices, but that's like blaming a child stolen into sex slavery for being a drug addict and a prostitute.
    i know that sounds extreme, but that's the level of emotion we're dealing with.

    ironically, there's a middle ground--a balance. where Ben is a spoiled brat, who still so crushingly felt disassociated that he followed the evil pied piper down a rabbit hole in which he now feels trapped. Snoke is dead (rejoice!) but having killed the thing that made him a monster, Ben's now redoubling his efforts to take control. because he still feels powerless and wounded and vulnerable. in a galaxy where he can bend steel with a wave and crush his enemies with a thought, he still feels like that helpless boy who was preyed upon. not only by Snoke, but by his own uncle (in his own mind), to whom he was entrusted by his own parents. why would this kid ever feel safe? ever?

    anyway, i understand why people don't connect to Ben or understand him, or feel like they need to "see" something for it to make sense. i think they've done a great job of creating a character who is reviled because of the choices he makes out of fear ~ which is exactly how most people treat others in real life when they just assume they're being jackholes without considering the underlying pain that's causing that behavior.

    again, it's not about being smart, or following crumbs, etc. it's about compassion, life experience, and empathy: resonating with the emotional core of the character (which is all in the film, in the acting, in the words he speaks and ones he doesn't).
     
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  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    They got angry because they were encouraged to speculate over open ended questions, and provided underwhelming subversion instead. I don't think anyone would have been angry that their speculation didn't come to pass if the answers the movie provided were better. I think this is something that continually goes overlooked. Rey didn't have to be a Skywalker, but TLJ's answer is a non-answer. Instead of saying who her parents are, TLJ side steps it and says her parents don't matter. Snoke didn't have to be Plagueis or the most sinister dark sider user of all time, but he was somebody. Instead of answering who Snoke was, TLJ side steps it and says Snoke doesn't matter. If this was true, why have either one be an element of the ST? The cave of mirrors never needed to happen. Snoke didn't even have to appear in TFA. That's not on the fans, that's on the franchise.

    There's nothing wrong with an unexpected twist in a movie, but I honestly thought Disney at least would have learned that a reveal is only as good as WHAT it actually reveals after the whole Iron Man/Mandarin debacle.

    Respectfully disagree here. One can lie in marketing but it is hardly a necessity. There are too many examples of this (not just in movies). But within Cinema, Episodes 1 - 6 trailers and teasers didn't lie, mislead, or misdirect and the audience seemed to enjoy the overall stories even if they didn't always like the dialogue (understandably) and the campy moments (also understandable)

    Except that this position could be characterized as a distortion of what I think the opposition is. I don't think people are arguing they were promised anything, they are arguing that the franchise set up grand mystery and excitement in having questions that they propagated answered, only to under-deliver on said answers. Again, if the answers had been better than what people speculated, I don't think people would be upset.

    Small nit here, we can choose how we respond to how we feel, but how we feel is involuntary. TLJ may have disappointed you, but you may choose to focus on the good parts and give the franchise the benefit of the doubt. Someone else may take the entire opposite position. Both legitimate.

    I shudder to think what you got for Finn that was what you wanted in TLJ considering what showed up on the screen but I knew we have different views on that. Just out of curiosity, What do you feel Rian gave you to think about? How, in your estimate, could have pigeon holed the characters such that they couldn't have grown further in EPIX? I mean he was writing a middle installment, I don't see how he could possibly stunt the growth of any of the characters (but maybe you are seeing something I'm not).
     
  17. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    legitimate, perhaps, but what does focusing on the disappointment gain you?
    what good comes of it? how does it improve your appreciation of the franchise? bring you joy?

    i accept that some people engage in fandoms for the purpose or pride of grousing about them, but i will never understand the point of that. if i don't like something (WB DC), i just go find something else to enjoy. i don't own any of this stuff. i just get to buy the toys and play with them when inspiration strikes me.

    they could have all just been op heroes who beat the bad guys and won everything?
    instead they all failed and had to be saved by Luke and barely managed to escape with their tails tucked?
    so how are they now going to win this thing on their own two feet with no magical legend to save their butts the next time?

    i might be misunderstanding your question.
     
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  18. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel General

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    The problem I have with Snoke is that the Emporer would not have allowed such a powerful Darksider to exist without being his Master. Palatine would have sensed Snoke and made it a priority to subjugate him or destroy him. He would have sent Vader to find him at the very least.

    We get no back story to explain Snoke? Blah.
     
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  19. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    Like Yoda and Windu and the rest of the Jedi sensed Palpatine you mean?

    Or like how Vader and the Emperor could sense Yoda and Obi-Wan in their secret hiding places?
     
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  20. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    Yeah, I agree with you. There's probably a range on how Jedi could pinpoint the location of other Jedi. Probably a way to cloud their presence as well. Maybe even familiarity plays a role. Maybe he wasn't as powerful then, or maybe, and I'm just thinking about this now... maybe Snoke was Chosen after the darkside lost 2 (Sidious, Vader) of it's most powerful force users, just like Rey is Chosen in the rise of Kylo to meet his darkness. The possibilities are endless, it is a non issue and a single throw away line could make the whole thing irrelevant. Because there are so many ways to explain his existence, and he isn't a core character and more of a stepping stone for Kylo, it's not an issue.
     
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