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The Snoke Schism

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Or/and Snoke was just on a Dagobah type planet and it made it impossible to tell because the planet itself is so intertwined with the force.
     
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  2. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    That's a concept from the first Timothy Zhan EU 'Legends' novels is it not?

    I quite liked it at the time, but now I just prefer to think The Force doesn't grant users with all-seeing, omniscient super powers.
     
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  3. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    I agree. And I think it's first from there but IIRC, it's official canon that Dagobah is just "pure" or whatever and is very strong in the force.
     
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  4. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    Maybe. Although I think perhaps just simple proximity is more significant.

    Vader only senses Kenobi once he's within proximity on the Death Star, and even then it's inferred it's only initially a vague sense with no certainty. Although perhaps it could be argued Kenobi is letting Vader sense his presence so he can find him.

    In ESB Vader seems unable sense Luke's presence or whereabouts without having to send out probe droids to seek him out.

    Then in ROTJ Luke only senses that Vader is on the new Death Star once he's nearby on the stolen Imperial shuttle on the way to Endor.
     
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  5. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Perhaps it's therapeutic, perhaps it helps them to see that they weren't alone in the thinking. Perhaps they are still reacting to people who are telling them they only own the views they did because they misinterpreted or they read into things that weren't there. I honestly could probably speculate dozens of reasons to do it, but my point is somewhat separate from that.

    To be clear, I'm not saying your line of questioning is invalid, just that it is invalid as a defense for the notion that the fans are upset because their speculation wasn't confirmed. And even if we examine the question, their answers for reacting how they do are going to be their answers, not ours. They're not less legitimate because they aren't what we'd do. I know some people who flat out refused to see SOLO because of TLJ. My disdain for TLJ couldn't be more clear from my posts in this forum but I was absolutely there on opening night to see SOLO anyway just like I'll be there on opening night to see EPIX (though in the interest of disclosure if EPIX is a story telling flop for me the way TLJ was I probably will shy away from their future products). Reactions are going to be as different as the people in which they manifest.

    Allow me to clarify, you said:

    "instead he gave me something to think about and room for the characters to keep growing. room for something else to happen."

    I'm asking how could Rian have written anything that would have eliminated room to grow and room for something to happen in a middle chapter? Short of killing off the characters I'm not sure I can think of a way that he could have. In effect, it feels like you're giving Rian credit for something that was an inescapable outcome of the middle chapter regardless of who wrote it. If he was writing EPIX instead of TLJ maybe what you're saying would make more sense (to me).
     
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  6. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    Classic JJ mystery box...
     
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  7. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    But it must be more complex than this...or it's a line of generally throw away dialogue designed to shroud something in mystery that doesn't *require* mystery....
     
  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    i'm not arguing that all people disappointed with TLJ are upset because their speculation wasn't confirmed. it's one of many many reasons people seem to be upset about. my point is that as a reason to be upset, it's really on the speculator. the movie is just a movie doing its thing. only the person engaging with it has the power to decide whether they like it or not (for whatever reason).

    i'm still not getting your question. Rian wrote the middle episode like a middle episode and i said it worked for me ~ that the characters aren't finished (as they shouldn't be). so...me giving credit for him basically doing his job correctly is...wrong? secondly, no, that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever if he was writing ix and left it all hanging like this.

    maybe there's a crossed wired here. either i'm still not understanding what your point is, or you're misunderstanding my original statement somehow?
     
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  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    And I'm asking could he have written anything else? We don't know what plans they have for the characters following the completion of the ST so if Rian had been in charge of EPIX and he wrote them in a way where they still had room to grow AFTER the ST, I would (I think) better understand your comment. But here it seems like you are extolling Rian for writing the characters with room to still grow and I'm asking myself, "could he have done anything else? What was the possible alternative to this?"

    Look at this way, you say Rian gave you something to think about in this movie right? But he didn't have to do that right? There were alternatives to this. He could have made a story that didn't compel you to ponder later. But by contrast, he couldn't have written a story that eliminated room for the characters to grow. It's a middle installment, the characters still have things they have to do and experience growth that will be guided by another writer's pen. So why would one praise Rian for leaving room to grow that he had no latitude to eliminate? That was my question. In the grand scheme I guess it's not really important, you can praise him for any reason you like (even ones that I disagree with or believe are unsupported). Was just wondering if there was something in this exchange that I was overlooking. Might just be a difference in perspective.
     
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    ah, okay, i get what you're saying, but yes, i was really responding to your question "What do you feel Rian gave you to think about?"
    my point was that he did what he should have done with a middle chapter and i was pleased with it. it was what i expected and he fulfilled that expectation.
    not 100%, of course ~ he could have done more with certain characters (or less in some cases), but my point was it was enough of what the film needed.

    i wasn't even particularly extolling. i was just saying he did what he needed to do.
    so i guess, to punt it back to you, maybe you can clarify why that's problematic?
    or is it just a misunderstanding of my level of enthusiasm for Johnson doing his job? XD
     
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  11. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Maybe a misunderstanding or maybe a difference in perspective (or maybe both). I'll expand more in another thread to avoid hijacking this one.
     
  12. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel General

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    Bingo. As much as we hate to admit it, we are no longer watching these movies from the perspective of Han, Leia or Luke. We are experiencing this movies through Rey and Kylo.

    Now, we know as much about Snoke as Rey does. Sure that's easy to buy. But what about Kylo. What's his back story with Snoke? He knows everything about Snoke, that would be relevant to us understanding the Snoke-drama. Yet we know almost nothing still. Or do we? Luke said the Snoke had darkened Ben's mind. Corrupted him. How you say? It's simple really. The student often imitates the teacher. Listen to Kylo as he talks and tries to seduce Rey from the TFA to TLJ. He talks about her needing a teacher. Tells her that her new found attachment to Han would be a disappointment. He tells her she was discarded, not loved, is alone and has no part in this story other then with him. He was willing to "help"her from the get go, while Luke was reluctant and eventually told her to leave his island.

    Now go back in time, and there is the revelation that Leia is the daughter of Vader, and she as a child. Snoke salivates at the opportunity to create a new Vader through the Skywalker bloodline. All he needed to to do was convince Ben that Han and Leia abandoned him. That they are scared of him, and don't understand his powers and his potential. Convince him that Luke will never teach him the true nature of the force, thus limiting his ability to understand and control it himself. That is all the seeds a young, immature mind would need to push him to the dark. His final encounter with Luke at the academy was the straw the broke the camels back, allowing Snoke to take control of him... albeit for a while anyway.
     
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  13. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Rebel Official

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    Most people never had much interest in Snoke so any schism is most likely exaggerated in the grand scheme of things.

    I, unfortunately, was one of those nerds who speculated a lot about him. For a few years, I discussed and read a whole bunch of ideas. During that period, I was pretty much Snoke's number #1 fan. If you want proof of that, just have a look at my awesome Snoke collection:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The ironic thing is I wouldn't even call myself a Star Wars fan. Heck, I didn't even know these new movies were coming out until I first seen the TFA teaser unwittingly. So, with my introduction to the Sequels, I had no more awareness or excitement than your casual fan. It wasn't until a couple months before TFA's release when my interest grew a lot stronger. I had come across Snoke being discussed as potentially being Darth Plagueis.

    Now, at that point, I had no idea who either of these guys were.

    Snoke? Who the hell are you talking about? Darth Plagueis? Stop making up silly names! In truth, I was fascinated that these two existed yet both were masked in complete mystery.

    Upon reading more into these characters (at least, what little is known about them), I guess I became curious about the new trilogy as a whole. In fact, that's exactly how I got introduced to the Cantina—by discovering the Plagueis thread.

    But if I were you, I would never venture into that thread. EVER! It is a thread of great evil. A thread shrouded in the dark side. Legend has it that anyone who enters will have their soul "tormented and twisted FOR ALL ETERNITY!" :eek:

    Listen carefully and you may even hear some of those poor, poor bastards leaking out into other threads! :eek::eek::eek:


    [​IMG]

    I had latched onto the Plagueis idea as my way of rationalising Snoke's inclusion. The "reveal" or receiving a boring backstory about who he really was didn't interested me much. What I considered interesting and important was what he could offer the story and how he could move it in a different direction. Now, Snoke definitely moved the story in a certain direction. He was the vital catalyst that undid all the great accomplishments of the OT heroes. Without him, the story doesn’t happen. There'd be no Kylo Ren.

    But did he progress the story forward? Did he bring anything new to the table? Anything interesting?

    For me, I see too much of the Emperor in him. I find it hard to distinguish any significant differences between them. They’re pretty much the same character. Similar introduction, similar ideas, similar strategies, similar mannerisms, similar mistakes, similar death.

    Whereas the Emperor was his own unique thing back in the OT days, Snoke is not. We had seen nothing like the Emperor previously. We had nothing to compare him to. With Snoke, that's no longer the case.

    That’s my biggest disappointment with Snoke. He's too derivative of what came before. Under-whelming, under-developed, unoriginal. Overall, an uninteresting addition. Instead of bringing anything new, we just got the same old Emperor re-packaged under a different disguise. At the very least, Snoke should feel like his own unique thing, like he belongs in this universe. But all I get are phoney Emperor vibes.

    This problem I have with Snoke affects how I view the entire story. Now any old schmuck can pop out of nowhere, copy the Emperor and turn the story completely on its head. No questions asked because none of it matters. It doesn't matter that there was another Emperor all this time. It doesn't matter that he appeared out the blue and undid everything.

    I've come to accept now that he’s just that "new Emperor guy". Since George didn't tell us anything about the Emperor when he first appeared, I've figured there's no point being concerned about this new guy either. And since the trilogies don't really connect anymore, I shouldn't worry about needing to know anything else. He's Snoke. He was that Emperor guy. That old smelly dude nobody liked.

    Ok, I'll drop the sarcasm down a notch. I'm not usually this salty.

    So what did I actually find interesting about Snoke?

    His fear and fragility.

    In TFA, it was apparent how fragile and beat up he was. That was obvious in how he moved and talked. He breathed heavily and spoke slowly. Just even the slightest movement, such as standing, seemed to cause him noticeable discomfort. That made me wonder who the hell did that? The Emperor? The Republic? Luke? Did he suffer a personal tragedy at the hands of one of them? Was his family or home destroyed? Was he out for justice and revenge?

    The other thing was Snoke’s fear (which seemed a consequence of his fragility). He seemed afraid of Rey, Luke and Kylo—afraid of Kylo in the sense that he didn’t want his apprentice making the same betrayal Vader did. Hence, why he tested him. By ordering him to face and kill his father, Snoke was testing his loyalty to the dark side and his master. He didn't want Vader's greatest flaw resurfacing again.

    However, I felt those two aspects—fear and fragility—were lost after watching TLJ. To be honest, I was struck by how different Snoke looked. His injuries no longer seemed to bother him much. He appeared much more animated and sprightly. The supreme confidence he put on show felt like I was watching the Emperor all over again rather than Snoke.

    And, in essence, both of them were killed because of that same flaw—arrogance—and their deaths played out largely in the same manner—betrayed by their apprentice whilst torturing someone their apprentice had feelings for.

    But did Snoke not learn anything from the Emperor’s failures? He knew what had happened, so how was he blindsided by the exact same situation? A situation he planned purposefully to complete Kylo’s training.

    The Emperor was caught off-guard by ignoring Vader’s feelings. He had not contemplated his own betrayal, whereas Snoke considered it but rejected the notion outright (despite planning this very thing to complete Kylo's training and overcome Vader's weakness!).

    Snoke wanted Kylo to bond with Rey, then bring her back to him, then make him murder her right in front of him as he tortured her? On top of that, he's going to really piss Kylo off and then tell him to his face that he manipulated him behind his back? Did he not think to himself, "Gee, I'm such an ass. Kylo's going to really hate me for this, isn't he?".

    Bear in mind, Kylo had actually tried to confront and attack Snoke in their opening scene together. Could he not sense Kylo’s hatred then? A hatred he had fuelled intentionally when he ridiculed him as a “child in a mask”. How was he so smart that he could sense his compassion and exploit that, but he couldn’t sense the obvious hatred Kylo had built up towards him? Rey could sense it, Kylo basically even admitted it to her, yet you're telling me Snoke couldn't? The guy that can read minds and connect them across the galaxy? :rolleyes:

    If that's the case, then I'm not even mad that Snoke is dead. If you get duped like a fool, you may as well die like one too.

    And with his death paves the way for a character with some genuine depth and uniqueness to become the Emperor. Unlike his predecessor, finally the story can go in an interesting direction. “What if Vader had become the Emperor?” is a lot more interesting than “What if the Emperor was impersonated by some random alien dude?”.

    All hail the new Supreme Leader, I say!

    PS: If Snoke returns as a Force Ghost to haunt Kylo or Luke in EPIX, then forget every single blabbering word I just wrote. :D:p
     
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  14. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I think Snoke in the ST is very much what Anakin was to the PT.

    I didn't like the PT mostly because I felt the story of Anakin was rushed. He fall to darkness didn't feel natural to me. There were other issues, but most of the issues, at least from a story telling stand point, sat with Anakin.

    That changed with the CW series. My appreciation with the PT only started after watching that cartoon series.

    I think Snoke holds that same influence, or at least his story does. His story explains Luke and is instrumental in telling us about Ben. I'd argue that story would probably be more compelling to me than the current ST. I can imagine they could probably make a 10 season series on Luke, Leia, Snoke, Han and Ben that would enrich the ST. Much like I couldn't suspend my disbelief for Anakin's fall in the PT, I can't suspend my disbelief for Luke's fall in the ST. By extension, I have a hard time buying Kylo, or understanding him, his motivations ect...

    If there's something LFL should concentrate on moving forward is that backstory, imo. Don't make it childish or aimed at 12 year olds, don't underestimate kids ability to catch on. Don't make it overly dark either, or gory ect... just tell a serious story with bits of humor carefully place to release tension. There are not many things about the ST I'd be curious about, spin offs and such, but a story on the origins of the story of the ST would spike my curiosity.

    I wanted to love the PT but couldn't with just the movies. I think many other SW fans felt the same. I believe CW was that element that turned the tide on that front. If the ST is to stand a chance to at least equal the PT, I believe it needs that Snoke story to be revealed, for the sake of Luke and Ben especially. Once I can come to a peace with Luke and Ben and Snoke, then I can maybe appreciate the Kylo/Rey dynamic more.

    It's the same with the PT. Once I came to a peace with Anakin in the CW moving into RotS, I was then able to appreciate the story of Sideous and others. I think for some fans, they can leap that river and appreciate it without the bridge. For others, they need that bridge to join them on the other side of the river.
     
  15. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Rebel Official

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    The Clone Wars would like to have a word with you ;)

    In terms of the Snoke Schism, both sides really do have a point here:

    The Pro-Plagueis group was right in how it would have tied things together well, although they'd have to come up with a reason as to why Snoke left the Sith (although that could easily be a throwaway line). But this would have been escalation, and that would have meant that the next trilogy would have to one-up that. And that's...not always good for the story.

    The Anti-Plagueis side was right - Plagueis doesn't matter to any of the good guys. They don't even know who he is. But this could have also made his connection to Kylo far more meaningful. And it's not like they couldn't make it work (Kylo as the grandson of his "failure" and Rey the success, but each is one the opposite side).

    I guess my fears lie more with Kylo than with Snoke. Kylo was abused by Snoke in some way. He was groomed, that much is obvious. Kylo is/was confused and emotional vulnerable. My fear is that Star Wars will turn this into a situation to say that those who are in the same stake Kylo is/was in aren't dangerous.

    Overall, as it stands, Snoke isn't an unfulfilled promise - he's an answered question with a piece of the equation missing.
     
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  16. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    LOL, I still stand by my original statement but I hear you.
     
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  17. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Clone Trooper

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    Not only would it tie the trilogies together, but the potential is there for it to show that he was the mastermind that kicked off this entire Skywalker saga from the get-go. If Palpatine killed Plagueis just before Anakin's turn, then it is easy to come to the conclusion that he was leading the events that led to that. You could also potentially write it in that Plagueis had each of his last two apprentices purposely kill him as a part of their training. Not to mention the idea that perhaps it was Plagueis that created the Skywalker bloodline in the first place (remember Palpatine's line in ROTS about Plagueis having the ability to create life and his creepy head turn towards Anakin, who had a virgin mother that does not understand how she got pregnant).
     
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Well, yeah, he's THE Supreme Leader of the rather infamous First Order. He should be a pretty well known figure in the galaxy, right?
    Just about everybody in the GFFA knew more about the state of things than we did in the OT. That was by design. It was part of the charm. Like the Emperor. His actual name, where he came from, where his Empire came from. That was a total mystery to us, but likely common knowledge to all the characters we were following. That wasn’t the issue.

    I agree with @Sparafucile with regard to Leia's knowledge. It’s implied in TLJ that Luke informed her of Snoke’s involvement somehow at some point. That further raises the question though of how Luke knew this. Answer: probably . . . the Force <shoulder shrug>.

    I’m glad Snoke is dead. I wish he had died in TFA. One of the laziest copy/paste elements in that movie. Just as bad as Starkiller. I had zero interest in finding out more about this unimaginative character. Probably would have been little more than empty plot.
    This part always makes me laugh. Hmm, now that this supposedly unmanned freighter has shown up, I’m suddenly sensing Obi-Wan . . . I better go tell Tarkin about this!!! Wow. Bang up job, Darth :D
     
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  19. Darth Geezy

    Darth Geezy Clone Trooper

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    The reason the backstory matters at this stage is because the chess pieces of the story had already been set going into the ST. That wasn't the case during the OT - we were new to the entire sandbox of characters, so an Emperor showing up as the guy in charge of an Empire wasn't exactly earth-shattering stuff. We are no longer new to the sandbox though, and the last we heard (in Episode 6) was that we had a happy ending, all of our heroes were presumably successful and the galaxy was headed into a period of peace. Laughs with Ewoks and Force Ghosts, Vader redeemed...we WON, weesa free!!!

    However, 30 years later we have this random Snoke guy - a clearly powerful darkside user no one has ever mentioned and we have never heard of. This random bad guy, who looks ancient and with seemingly mortal-looking wounds, who has made mention that he has seen everything, including the rise and fall of the empire, has completely ruined the lives of our heroes' in the past decade or so, has infiltrated and ruined two of our heroes family by making their child his apprentice, subsequently ruining Luke Skywalker's life by that very same act, and has brought back the Empire, which we were told was destroyed. All from a guy that we have never heard of?

    How on Earth are we not owed a backstory on this? I just don't get that mindset. This is a person or being that has single-handily took what we watched in Episodes 1 through 6 and threw it into a trash compactor. If you had never watched Star Wars before and were to watch Episodes 1 through 9 in succession, when you get to Episode 7, you're going to be like "Um, who the heck is a Snoke?"
     
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  20. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    lol @ Vader sensing Obi-Wan...

    I think the PT made that element worse in retrospect. When first viewing the OT, we didn't know the circumstances of Vader and Kenobi's relationship, especially in ANH beyond him being an apprentice turned to evil. Our imagination contemplated without specifics a scenario where Vader would be utterly confused and going to Tarkin for... advice? or just to let him know? ... in ANH, we just assumed it was a chain of command thing, that Vader somehow answered to Tarkin. The OT imo opinion makes that less clear or believable. My best head canon would be that Palpatine ordered Vader to let the highest ranking officers know if Jedi were around so they can plan accordingly. But that's just a guess.
     
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