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SPOILER The truth about Snoke (Attention: TLJ Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by BobRoss, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Snoke is a force projection and he didn't really get killed and here's why (This post has been re-edited after a second viewing)

    - In TLJ we get introduced to the new power of force projection. We know that a force projection can fool multiple people at once. We know that whoever does the force projection can alter their appearence (Luke looks a lot younger in the projection) and that they can even project objects (The pair of dice Luke gives to Leia). So it shouldn't be a problem for Snoke to fake being cut apart/severed bodyparts.

    - Snoke has been shown to be able to manipulate the force from great distances. He has no problems smashing Hux to the ground even if Hux is on a different ship than him so Snoke could have easily done the things he did to Rey without being present at the Supremacy at all.

    - We got a lot of background information about Snoke in interviews and books that we didn't actually need to know for watching TLJ. He wears an obsidian ring taken from Vaders castle, he is ancient, he comes from the unknown regions. In the TLJ complete Visual Dictionary there's even explained how he navigates the unknown regions and we can even see one of his navigators in full costume that never appeared in the mvoie whatsoever. Since all of this information is unimportant for TLJ this means that we will see him again or this information would be useless. Rian has also said that we learn exactly as much as we need to know about Snoke in TLJ which is a weird thing to say if he didn't appear in IX.

    - I think it's clever how they recut to Snoke's body to show us "that guy is really dead" but it means nothing. Remember the pair of dice Luke produced during his force projection? They lasted long enough for Kylo to find them and hold them in his hands even after Luke had already died. So it should be equally possible for Snoke to produce bodyparts that last quite a while.

    - Snoke goes down way too quickly. His death felt really off character given how he was established as this extremely powerful forceuser just minutes before.

    - Have you noticed how noone ever directly interacts with Snoke? Noone ever touches him or his severed bodyparts. There is never a direct interaction with his physical body which makes me think he is never actually present in TLJ. It is always Snoke engaging other people first which makes me think that he is a forcprojection since Luke behaves exactly the same when he is a projection. All interaction is initiated by the manipulators and takes place on their own terms.

    - Snoke being a projection would explain his weird name and how during the production all Snoke theories were so easily shut down. He is not Plagueis, not a resurrected Palpatine, not the parent of Rey, etc... He is just a forceprojection and doesn't even exist. So the person we think Snoke is doesn't really exist and thus all "Snoke is..." theories are wrong by default.

    - One thing I didn't notice on my first viewing is that Rey took the old Jedi texts. They were already gone when Yoda incinerated the force tree. Why would these ancient texts have survived Yodas "lesson" if they weren't an important part in the next movie. I was also analysing the mosaic in the first jedi temple closer and have come up with an additional theory about the identitiy of Snoke. (See the mosaic section below)

    - It would make sense from a storytelling point of view to make Snoke a forceprojection. By simply playing a "mindtrick" Snoke lured Rey out of hiding, pushed Kylo 100% to the dark side and subsequently tricked Luke into killing himself through his sacrifice. It would be the ultimate ruse worthy of an ancient and powerful forceuser.



    So what do you guys think about this theory

    /edit: Thanks to Migatte Nu Gekoi for bringing this to my attention:
    In the Visual Dctionary it says:
    snoke_text.png

    /edit2: As Zyloren pointed out in the comments there's a peculiar mosaic in the jedi temple where Luke conjures the force projection. I had a closer look at the mosaic and here is what I found. (High res image by fizzgig)
    mosaic1.png


    There is a resemblance between the alien portrayed in the mosaic and Snoke. I think it's also interesting how the alien portrayed in the mosaic is described as "the first of the order" and how he is in a state of balance. Snoke seems to be at least aware of the concept of balance as he points out in TLJ that the rise of dark will lead to a reaction of the ligth (and vice versa). The important thing however is the location of the mosaic. It's in the very same temple where Luke conjures the force projection so if this mosaic indeed portrais Snoke then we can assume he is familiar with the force projection technique and might even be the inventor of it.


    /edit3: In case you were wondering who is behind the forceprojection I think I might have found the answer. Seems like it could be the mastermanipulator and inventor of the "I fake my own death" signature move Darth Plagueis! This is the ring Snoke is wearing in TLJ.
    vader castle.png
    dwarti.png


    /edit4: An alternate explaination who or what Snoke might be:

    Snoke was the prime jedi depicted in the mosaic, equally light and dark. But somehow his body was split. The good in him left, leaving behind the scars and the crack in the head. He literally split apart. Now Snoke wants to become whole again, he is basically the bad part trying to find his good side to restore the balance. By creating conflict and chaos in the unviverse he knows that eventually his light side will show up as a reaction. He wants to find his light side again this way but he isn't sure who it is. Snoke expects his good part to come in form of Luke (a Skywalker). Why you ask?. Well the good part was... Anakin Skywalker. His birth out of nowhere happened when the good part split away from Snoke. This is also why Anakin was said to restore the balance. He was destined to make Snoke whole again but he didn't which is why Snoke is keeping track of the Skywalkers. That's the reason why he tempts Kylo in the throneroom. To see if there is light or dark in him. To see if he kills Rey or him. That moment Snoke lets "Kylo" kill him he knows that Kylo might be his long lost good side after all. Kylo will find redemption in IX by merging with Snoke, thus restoring the balance in the force once and for all and end the Skywalker bloodline that should have never existed in the first place. For now he literally feels "torn apart" but he will become the prime Jedi in the end. There can only be balance if the prime Jedi exists, teh first of teh order. Rey, representing "a nobody" carries on the torch of the "mortal" forceusers.

    This theory would explain why Snoke did not interfere with Sidious (he was restoring the balance by dethroning the jedi) and what JJ means by connecting the prequels to the sequels.

    The following image has not been mirrored it shows where Snoke's good side should be and how it left him scared after leaving him
    snoke.png


    /FINAL EDIT:

    We'll it might seem weird but I am pretty convinced by now that my own theory is wrong. I have been reading a lot of interviews since the release of TLJ and there are some pieces of new information that seem to debunk my theory:

    - There is no masterplan. Rian made it all up as he went along, he hasn't written any plotpoits or storyline for IX. So he certainly didn't prepare Snoke's return in form of a rough draft that he passed on to JJ.
    - Rian was simply interested in the developement of Kylo and didn't care much for Snoke. The Supreme leader had to go to make room for Kylo. Snoke's death was reactionary storytelling rather than careful planning ahead.
    - Rian was only focused on his own personal vision. He cared little for what came before TLJ and what will come after. Considered the way he approached TLJ it makes little sense for him to plan something like Snoke's return in IX when he didn't even bother to explain the questions concerning Snoke that TFA left us with.
    - I've been listening to a podcast where a sounddesigner said how they indicated force projection Luke by emoving all the sounds that Luke makes when interacting with the environment. Snoke however makes a loud noise when his upper half crashes on the floor (a fantasticly morbid "splat" that I really enjoyed both times I watched TLJ in the cinema). Snoke's body making a sound would directly go against the rules established for forceprojections in TLJ.

    I made this theory because I believed that all this information floating arround couldn't be just random nonsense the storygroup came up with. I couldn't believe that the obsidian ring with Dwartii glyphes (only mentioned in the book Plagueis before) was coincidental. But the thing is that the sequel trilogy is not based on a shared vision. They directors make up the story as the go along. Just think of how the central plotdevice in TFA, the map to Luke Skywalker, is not explained in TLJ. Who made they map and why it even existed in the first place if Luke didn't want to be found is never explained. Neither why Lor San Tekka had the map and why Kylo knew the map existed and why some of it was also stored in R2-D2. TLJ made things even worse, Kylo thought Luke was dead after the events at the Jedi academy, Luke then went into hiding and even cut himself off from the force. How did Kylo even know Luke was still alive?...

    My point is that something like the force projection theory would require careful planning. It would require the individual content creators to respect each others visions and build their ideas upon the ideas of others rather than changing them until they fit their own personal vision. However, examples like the "map to Luke", which is after all the central plot element of TFA, show us that there is no red line, no carefully planned story, no overarching vision. I tried to fit the pieces of a puzzle together that has never existed to begin with. There might be a little bit of hope though for Snoke to return.

    + Nothing is set in stone. JJ can do what Rian did and change the direction of the trilogy as he pleases. Fans are no longer expecting to have their questions answered so JJ could revive Snoke and people would accept it.
    + Disney usually (over)reacts quickly to fan feedback. The reason why TLJ turned everythign upside down is because TFA was considered to be a rehash of ANH. If fans continue to signal their frustration with the lack of answers TLJ has provived to some of our questions then IX might be the episode designe dto connect and explain the individual movies of the franchise.
    + Maybe, just maybe Rian his deliberately misleading us. Maybe he has realized that audiences are pretty good at finding out secret identities of characters in movies and games and he and JJ are fooling us all along. Chances are slim but it might be an elaborate plan set up by the storygroup to fool us all.

    However, all in all I still don't see much chance of Snoke returnign after the new information I collected following the release of TLJ. If any ofthe things I predicted turn out to be true I would be really surprised and it would probably be sheer luck. But I really had a great time discussing this theory with all of you and hearing your oppinions and ideas so thank you all for your time :)
     
    #1 BobRoss, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2017
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  2. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    Liked it. But,who is behind the force projection? The force itself? Or another being?
     
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  3. r70

    r70 Rebelscum

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    Love it, but I hope there is another being behind the force projection, and who could it be?
    We Star Wars fans are helpless... We are already making projections about episode IX... That's why I love Star Wars :D
     
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  4. Master_Rebado

    Master_Rebado Force Sensitive

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    Also note that the force projection Luke did once ended - he died.
     
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  5. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I can imagine some ancient, dark being trapped in a temple or a holocron. We have seen Darth Bane in the Clone Wars series directly interact with Yoda from beyond the grave so maybe Snoke is some mummyfied corpse of an ancient evil trying to get back to life by manipulating evertyone arround him.
     
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  6. baesy ridley

    baesy ridley Rebelscum

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    Is the "real" Snoke somewhere out there in a physical form projecting onto the scenes we see him in, or is he more omnipresent, more like a force ghost. Or is someone else completely projecting as Snoke.

    Not really sure how i feel about any of them really. I enjoyed the theory, and not to put it down in any way, but to me personally, walking out of the film he was dead and i wasn't really to fussed about it. Off course the idea of him still being alive was one of the first to run through my mind, but it was more of a "wow, they really did that, ok" reaction for me.

    It kind of cemented Kylo Ren's place in the story, which is ultimately his story (shared with Rey offcourse). It was bold, which i liked. Hearing the extra details from your post about book knowledge and Rian's comments does make his sudden apparent death a little strange. So i do see this as a possibility.
     
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  7. Saeban-

    Saeban- Clone

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    One thing that I did notice which makes me think snoke is still alive is that how kylo and rey had those force visions together where the would talk and snoke told them that he was the one making them possible,

    And then right near the end of the movie well after snoke "died" as rey was boarding the mellenium falcon, rey and kylo had one last brief look at each other through that force vision... so if snoke was dead how where they able to see each other?

    I dont know but just a little thought I had
     
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  8. Lukee1811

    Lukee1811 Force Sensitive

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    Interesting theory.
     
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  9. Migatte no gokui

    Migatte no gokui Rebelscum

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    This makes sense, I'd say (not only because I'd like to) that there's a bigger chance of him being alive.

    I think they show us that for a reason, the same way they showed us both Poe's interrogation and Rey's in TFA so we can compare both scenes, in this instance, this scene (Snoke and Hux) I believe was used to give us a clue : here's what he CAN do.

    The book highly emphasizes on him navigating the unknown regions (more like "I like to STAY there" vibes)
    Ok also, in the visual dictio., when it talks about him projecting itself, I don't think it says hologram only (I could be wrong). I remember reading something close to : Snoke likes to project himself from far away, in retreat. I even thought : what so we're not gonna see the real (real) one this time either ?!! Well maybe we didn't...

    Knowing he is vulnerable, it makes no sense to bring Rey and Kylo in your throneroom, in your presence, your real one. Especially after YOU wi-fi'd them together ???

    Finally, Snoke from TFA novel (to kylo) : "It was neither poor strategy nor arrogance that brought down the Empire. You know too well what did."
    I mean b*tch seriously what the f*ck are you talking about how can you be so stupid with your moral if you die the exact same, wait actually it's worse.

    OR

    Maybe he let Kylo cut him for the lelz...

    Mysnokesides.jpg
     
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  10. Mr Hux

    Mr Hux Rebel Commander

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    Bad writing.
     
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    Plagueis. If this theory is true it could be only Plagueis. The "final boss" of all the saga. And saying that "Snoke is not Plagueis" would be true from a certain point of view: he's not him because he's just a projection coming from him ;)
     
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  12. Migatte no gokui

    Migatte no gokui Rebelscum

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    Here's what it says : "Few have ever seen Snoke in the flesh. He obscures himself with distance, being forever unreachable save for a select few who can contact him directly. EVEN UNDER SUCH circumstances, Snoke disguises his true nature."
     
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  13. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Holy moly that's better than all the things I took into consideration combined!
     
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  14. Mr Hux

    Mr Hux Rebel Commander

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    Yeah, with hologram.
     
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  15. FinnGalfridian

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    after watching TLJ i will not be surprised to see Jar Jar Abrams creating things like force resurrection or force reintegration and we will have snoke with us again, long live supreme leader
     
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  16. Migatte no gokui

    Migatte no gokui Rebelscum

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    It seems like the most logical, but he has 2 entries in it ... 2

    1 is about the prophecy gone wrong and the main one is 80% about the fact that he likes to stay hidden.
    You're saying (and it might very well be) that the main description of this character is a lexical field of "hologram" ? Damn ... So much for being stronger than Palp and Vader, what are those "unlimited ressources" Serkis talked about ?
     
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  17. Mr Hux

    Mr Hux Rebel Commander

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    It doesnt really matter what they say. Rian said that the porgs isnt in the movie to sell toys but that was an obvious lie.
     
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    He used force projection to fake his death at the hands of Palpatine.

    #PlagueisConfirmed
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2017 ---
    @master_shaitan - get involved!
     
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  19. Withred

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    I just saw the film and wanted to come here and make a thread about it but you beat me to it!

    100% behind you, and that it was deff a gambit. Even before he dies he's saying "I can see who Kylo will kill, he will strike true" almost as if he KNOWS he's going to die.

    He wants Kylo to take power so he can be full dark side, but also fall on his ass like he did when he failed in the final battle. Then Snoke will come back and fully snuff out the light sides, and his "weak" apprentice, by increasing the hope of the Galaxy, even more darkness will be ushered in by crushing it. That, or Kylo is a scapegoat of some kind to lure Skywalker out and be beaten by him, so the old light user can die. He must think Rey is weak and won't be able to stand up to him by herself and whatever forces she amasses.

    That's the main problem with this theory; why, would he do it?

    Or this could just be a case of us seeing Gold where there is poop. Good theories on bad writing and the People behind star wars really have no idea wtf they're doing.
     
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  20. Aquila

    Aquila Rebelscum

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    It reminds me of something...

    Jews for few centuries believed the Jerusalem temple is the real Home of God. Babylonians razed it to the ground. But it didn't stop Jews from believing it's really the home of God. So they built a second temple and considered it the most sacred place on Earth again. So Romans came and razed it to the ground for the second time. But Jews still refused to accept that there's no such thing a their God and their status as chosen people.

    Followers of Jesus believed that he is the chosen one, the messiah and that what he says was true - that soon God himself will descend, kill the wicked ones and rule personally in his Kingdom. Jesus told his disciples that they will see it themselves and it'll happen very soon. But unfortunately Romans captured and killed him. A lot of followers left the Jesus movement, but some refused to accept that what they believed, whaat they've been told was not true. Thus christianity started.

    There is a lot of examples in the long history of humankind when there were people who faced facts contraditcing their beliefs, but they still refused to accept them and decided to cling on to their personal beliefs forever.

    Snoke is dead. He was not a projection, he was not a deception. He was a living being ultimately surprised by Kylo's trechery and whose split in half body collapsed from his throne. He's also an example of a wasted opportunity to create a good backstory to an evil character. Time to accept this.
     
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