The truth about Snoke (Attention: TLJ Spoilers)

Post of the day. Great stuff. It also adds credence to my observation about Rey’s cave experience- when she is looking for answers regarding her parentage, she sees only a reflection of herself- indicating that she is her own parent, a manifestation of the Living Force.

 

more clues - someone mentioned Ben is aware of force projection when Rey appears in his reality and says she can't really be there or it would be too much of a strain (like when Luke is doing it later). so we can deduce Snoke has taught him or previously demonstrated this ability.

the Throne Room - before release people were complaining the throne room set had an artificial look, including the guards. the whole thing looked very fantastical, almost unreal. couldn't be deliberate, could it?

 

I'd agree if Snoke hasn't come out and admitted to it as a plot of manipulation to get Luke Skywalkers location. Kylo himself says that neither he or Rey are maintaining it, because it'd "kill them." Ergo Snoke shows his power by creating it and then trying to break them both by revealing it.

Infinite self is about her parents. Though it was hinted to be a dark side thing, so more Snoke manipulation?

This theory is fun for me, and I concur with you about the jury being out. Strong possibility for story either way. Bug think for this their is possible avenue for Kylo redemption.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2017 ---

Again great theory apart from disease analysis, because it implies Luke and Leia are also "abominations". Even in OT.And I don't see that. It implies that even by being alive and breathing they disrupt the force? Then logically every dark sider and light sider should've committed suicide ages ago for the same reason.

Plaguis creating Anakin is also not canon and after taking a look at it, it's interesting but not a high fidelity theory.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017 ---

No, the reflection is meant to show she has no parents, only herself since they are dead. She asks "show me my parents" and sees herself=ties in with themes of movie of killing the past

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017 ---

Again, your adding a twist to a theory that already has one with Plaguis. Two is too many. Audiences head would hurt. And both Rey and Ben dying would be a too sad ending anyways.

 

May have been mentioned in the 100+ posts before (didn't read them all) but Snoke directly touched Reys face.

 

Same as Snoke leaving behind a body then.

 

There you go, my sweet friend, taking a dark sider at his word again... know you not, that the dark side clouds everything?

Wheels within wheels, I'm sure.

I'm no expert in Force bonding, actually, I'm not even sure Kylo is either come to think of it. He probably just thinks it's an extension of his mind invasion thing and bases his opinion on that. But from what we've seen outside the movies, it's just a bond created between two Force sensitives, most often between Jedi Master and apprentice In fact, it's more of a Jedi thing, than a Sith thing. The mindy rape thing seems to be the dark side equivalent of that ability, no wonder the darksiders don't get it. No one has to maintain it, as such. See the canon example of when Dooku used his bond with Yoda to lure him into trouble in TCW. There's more stuff out there, but it ain't official cannon as such.


And yes, yes, the mirror thing with Rey is about her parents. But there are more layers of meaning in that scene than just the obvious, and it ties into the reoccurrng uses of the smoke and mirrors symbolism and plot devices used throughout the trilogy. Just like the major light/dark contrasting, used to highlight the extremes, and the struggle, between the light and the dark sides within the characters, and within the Foorce. The most obvious example of that is how before every major scene, particularly where characters dies, the characters are shown with the light lighting up one half of their face, while the other half is in darkness.

Quite clever in some ways, these film makers.

But yeah, they seem to be making it very hard to predict where these films will go. I think I like that?

 

The Luke screens really do back this up. With foreshadowing and explanations. He also kisses Leia's head and didn't leave any red tracks in the white salt when he walks out. Where was Snoke positioned in all his scenes? On his throne, until he died and his body flopped in half on the floor. Methinks he didn't move too much to give the game away.

 

Ok, I could understand that in context then.

 

I think Kylo is being genuine when he talks in the force bond. He is still conflicted at that stage.

Force bond lore and abilities is tricky so I think we should keep it to within movie canon. The reason is so that main audiences can understand the implications and theories of it.

If it's a light side thing and Snoke did create it, then it leads credence to him being balance of the force. Like the black/white image in that Jedi temple.

I love films that try to challenge me with theories and evidence. It's soooo much fun to talk and banter about.

 

Here's a way that IX could play out with this theory:

• Heroes and Ren discover Snoke's existence.
• Ren is furious and troubled by it. After all, he thinks he's accomplished what Vader hadn't.
• Rey and Ren combine forces to fight against Snoke.
• Snoke says he's been called many things over the years including "Plagueis".
• Once they approach Snoke, they discover that they can merge and combine into a single being - the balanced first jedi - and defeat Snoke.

That would be fun. Or maybe only Luke can defeat Snoke through his current form as a force ghost. Or he has to possess Snoke to defeat him and make him whole/balanced again.

Whatever we get in IX, I want more than a Rey/Ren lightsaber fight.

 

yes, yes, yes.

Adding to this, another clue - I saw an interview with Rian Johnson where he said that originally they planned to have red curtains behind Snoke in the throne room scene- akin to those in a theatre, which adds to the idea that this was a 'stage'.

 

I think maybe we'll find that Kylo thought he accomplished something but in reality only made things worse by killing Snoke. He will probably only be Supreme leader temporarily until something darker rises. But I'm still not sure where they will go. Just my speculatiobn. Kylo may just go even darker because now he is alone after Rey abandons and refuses his plans.

 

I like everything but Kylo and Ren as one being. You're giving me Steven Universe vibes with that.

I want more than one epic Rey/Ren fight. I dunno the plot of IX simply being "Kylo is dark leader, he is too far gone or not too far gone and Rey redeems/kills him" is just too boring and anticlimactic. I hope JJ doesn't repeat TFA with another Death Star. Show Kylo's humanity and originality in that regard at least!

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2017 ---

Deff. That has been a mainstay all his arcs I think. Even in the end of TLJ we see that killing Snoke was an issue, as he got his ass handed to him by Luke who made him look ridiculous and let the resistance escape with a distraction. Resistance also did way better against him than they would've done against Snoke, who probably would've flanked them or something in a gambit to destroy their forces much quicker.

Kylo and Rey could go either way at this point as outlined above.

 

Leia and Ben touched the dice

 

Yeah agreed the coming as one thing would just be a little weird. But an emotional and well choreographed fight between Rey and Ren in maybe the second act of the film with neither of them winning would great. Where they both finally realise they have to work together to actually beat snoke

 

Oh I agree he's being genuine, I just don't agree that he really knows what he's tasking about here. He just thinks he does. But he doesn't know as much about the Light side of the Force as he thinks.

Yes, yes, movie canon is superior. But there is nothing to contradict TCW cannon yet, and TPTB more often than not use preexisting precedents. Force bond lore and abilities is tricky, that's what I like about it. That's what makes It fun to discuss. It makes me sad you have such a poor opinion of the audiences intellience, btw.

The only evidence that we really have for Snoke creating the Force bond between Rey and Kylo is his say so, which is not conclusive evidence in my book.

I do wonder if these films are going less in the way of bringing balance to the Force, and more about the taming of extremes and brining harmony.

Anyway, it's all good fun, isn't it

 

Yeah it's kind of left up in the air. Not sure how it will go.