The unsaid "problem" with ROS...

What I said is that people THINK recasting/CGI is tacky, but they think archive footage is OK, and I don't totally understand why. If they had recreated Leia with CGI, there would been a major risk of a backlash.

 

And I was saying they are wrong for thinking recasting is. CGI is different and I get that more. There would have been backlash over recasting as well. People are way too protective of fake characters in a movie about space wizards

 

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 2, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 2, 2020 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 2, 2020 ---

 

I thought the visual effects of Leia in these scenes were pretty well done, but the acting seemed kind of uncanny. It just quickly became apparent that they had a short list of lines that Carrie had recorded that the writers had to work the dialogue around, and while the actors did a decent job trying to work with this, it's just got to be difficult to deliver a line to a pre-filmed actress in an appropriate way.

Honestly, it kind of reminded me of how Tommy Wiseau was inserted into these scenes:

Impressive? Sure. But also kinda morbid. Like, when you were a kid, did you have toys that had voicebox/prerecorded catchphrases? It kinda felt like that, like these scenes were built around a series of dialogue that they had, rather than the dialogue being written for the scenes themselves.

 

Agreed. I was impressed with how they looked. It looked great. And they obviously re-worked a lot of the stuff for those lines to the detriment (imo) of other things. Unfortunate but they did what the felt was best.

 

I didn't say we found out exactly how Leia would be portrayed right after Carrie's death. But very soon after Carrie's passing, KK was on the record saying there would be no CGI. It always struck me as a bit quick- I doubt she had time to even talk with the family about it. The final decision might have been reached in April, but that isn't when KK was first talking about it, which was in January.

For sure! I really learned my lesson with this movie. Don't listen to the critics.
I was eventually going to go see it anyway, but only went because I was afraid it would be gone from the historic theater near me after last weekend (they typically don't show a lot of first-run movies) so I dragged the whole family in, and we really enjoyed it.
I don't know, though, maybe it was because this place served beer, and the other theaters in town don't.

I think recasting would have been tough, but you make a good point. Her death didn't just diminish Leia's role, it diminished Kylo's as well. I thought his character arc was the most interesting of all the new characters in the sequels. And I feel Leia was shortchanged in almost the entire SW series. Saving her story for the end was the right thing to do, in that it elevated her role considerably, finally fleshing out her character the way it deserved to be.

Carrie was also the youngest of the actors so it seemed like a safe bet, I'm sure.

But it does seem that the main focus was to get the movie done, and so her story was sacrificed to the bean counters. What a shame.

 

Honestly, there was no good way to deal with Carrie's absence, and I don't know that delaying the release would have changed that.

It did affect the final product, not having Carrie there to build Leia's role around. It affected Ben's redemption too. But I have to say, as somebody who was adamantly opposed to the idea of Ben being redeemed after murdering his own father in cold blood, I thought that the way they worked it wasn't bad at all. It surprised me how okay i was with it, even on my first viewing when i really didn't like the film that much. And the second time, when i DID like it quite a bit, Ben's redemption still felt okay.

But if Carrie had been there and if Leia had played a bigger role in bringing him back, I suspect it would have been a grand slam, outta the park. Pretty cool for something that I never wanted to see happen.

 

This seems like the right thread to put this in...

Thanks to The Rise Of Skywalker, the legacy of the Skywalkers is one of failure & inferiority -

Anakin – He was billed as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Instead, he was seduced by the Dark Side and became a Sith. He was never the most powerful Jedi, and was never the most powerful Sith. He failed as a Jedi by turning to the Dark Side, he failed as a Sith by turning back to the light, and he failed as the Chosen One by not bringing balance to the Force and not destroying the Sith. His greatest accomplishment was saving his son from death. But that singular act of sacrifice changes nothing. It does not undo the damage, death, and destruction he inflicted upon the galaxy as Palpatine's glorified goon.

Luke – Sure, he blew up the Death Star in ANH. But that act did not destroy the Empire or the Sith. It was merely an inconvenience. Yes, he brought his father back from the Dark Side in ROTJ. But that act only affected his father, not the rest of the galaxy. He did not destroy the Sith. He did not destroy the Empire. He did not destroy the 2nd Death Star. The Rebellion did that. Luke was no match for Palpatine and would've been killed if his father hadn't saved him. His Jedi Academy was a failure. His students were either slaughtered or turned to the Dark Side. Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side was solidified by Luke's actions when he failed to sense the good in Ben that was obviously there. Then he abandoned his family and friends and left them to fend for themselves against First Order/Dark Side. Rey literally shows up on Luke's doorstep, begging for help in understanding her Force powers. Luke knows she is a direct descendant of Palpatine. Yet he refuses to train her. When he finally does train her (reluctantly), he limits her training to just 2 lessons. Later, when he finds out that Rey is communicating with Kylo Ren, he allows her to run off to face him alone. Luke could've raised his X-Wing out of the water and gone to help Rey, Leia, his friends, and the Resistance. He could have confronted Kylo face to face and at least had a chance to strike him down. But instead he stays on an island far away, creates an illusion that poses no threat to Kylo, and in doing so commits Force suicide.

Leia – In ANH Leia is only a member of the Rebellion to over overthrow the Empire. Although it's successful in destroying the Death Star, the Empire is unfazed. In ROTJ the Rebellion is successful in destroying the second Death Star. While this does end the Empire as we had known it, the First Order rises quickly and easily. It kidnaps thousands of children, builds a massive military force, and builds a weaponized planet called Starkiller Base, which single-handedly destroys the New Republic. By the end of TLJ Leia's allies had abandoned her, and the entire Resistance could fit inside Millennium Falcon. In ROS, the Resistance doesn't defeat the Empire/First Order until after Leia is dead. Also in ROS, we learn that Leia was trained in the ways of the Force. But she quit because she wanted to save someone she loved, which was a mistake her father Anakin had made that lead him to the Dark Side. She never used her Force abilities to fight the Dark Side or to save her son. In fact, the only time she used her abilities was to save herself after an explosion that jettisoned her into space.

Ben Solo – Fell to the Dark Side. Killed his Dad. Killed lots of innocent people. Although he saved Rey from certain death in TLJ and TROS, Ben himself was no match for Snoke, Palpatine, or Rey. Like his Grandfather Anakin, his return to the light at the end of his life does not undo the damage, death, and destruction that he inflicted upon the galaxy.

Rey – No matter what she wants to call herself, she's not a Skywalker. She's a Palpatine.

None of the Skywalkers ever saved the galaxy. None of the Skywalkers took down the Empire. None of the Skywalkers destroyed the Sith. None of the Skywalkers ever defeated a Palpatine at any point in the entire saga. With Episodes 7 – 9, Disney changed the "Skywalker Saga" into the Palpatine Saga. Disney's new trilogy focused on Rey Palpatine and relegated the Skywalkers to secondary characters. They told us this new trilogy would be a continuation of the Skywalker Saga. But that was a lie. The entire Disney trilogy is built on a lie.

 

I really think that this is a very important point that deserves its own thread.

Yes. This is exactly what they did. I know there were many (now non-canon) books that continued the Skywalker story, and (I think) something along those lines is what Lucas had envisioned for the sequels.

In fact, up until the final credits rolled at the end of TROS I was fairly certain that they'd either a). find a way to redeem Kylo and turn him into the main protagonist and hero- (a heavy lift, I will admit but I'm not a screenwriter), or b). Rey really was a Skywalker.

I was wrong on both counts.

It's as if there is some type of deep-seated dislike of the OT (possibly part of a larger sociological phenomenon) that's been playing out over the last 20 years. Even the title of this movie, "The Rise of Skywalker" seems like either an attempt to gaslight us, or an obvious joke that we're just too stupid to get.

 

It's funny how after TLJ, people starting acting like Rey NOT being a Skywalker was a good thing. In my opinion is was OBVIOUS that she was set-up to be a Skywalker in one way or another. I have my own ideas on how that could've been done in a unique and surprising way that respects the lore, but that's another topic.

But in relation to ROS, making Rey a Skywalker would've eliminated many of the most glaring problems with the film.
#1 - The title of the movie would've been honest and accurate.
#2 - This trilogy being a continuation of the "Skywalker Saga" would've been honest and accurate.
#3 - A Skywalker (again) would've defeated the Sith/Palps and been the hero.
#4 - The "Rey Skywalker" line wouldn't be so laughable and would be honest and accurate.
#5 - MOST fans would have been completely fine with it.

That being said, even if she was a Skywalker, this movie still would've been a dumpster fire and a slap in the face to the OT/PT.
The way they brought Palps back, and they way they abused the Force, are absolutely horrible and unforgiveable.

 

To paraphrase/quote Anakin, "I've given up trying to argue with you".

If people want to double down on factually inaccurate analyses of this movie, there's not a whole lot of conversation to be had.

 

Well, from a certain point of view... The title should not have been Tros, but Revenge of Palpatine.

 

They should have just re-edited TLJ. Leia never wakes up after floating through space, Luke doesn't die, cut broom boy.

Quite frankly, this would have made the movie better anyway. It was insulting to fans to fake Luke's death, then bring him back, then fake his death again, then bring him back again, only for him to abruptly die anyway.

 

Huh?
When did they fake his death?

 

The title? Absolutely. But even then, they've turned all 9 movies into the Palpatine saga. Palpatines > Skywalkers in every movie. They won in the PT. They won in the OT thanks to ROS retcon. And they won in the ST thanks to Rey.

 

I just don’t compute how Palpatine’s return, which is criticised for being tacked on, and the revelation of Rey’s connection with him in the final movie converts the entire saga into the Palpatine saga.

Rey transcended her Palpatine lineage and so does her victory. And by Ben’s sacrifice, the “last” Skywalker was redeemed. Plus whenever anyone in the galaxy far, far way asks who destroyed the Sith (all of them), they’ll be told “Rey Skywalker”. For that is her name.

 

I agree. Her final scene cements one of the most important messages in TLJ, where Rey learns that her past/bloodline doesn't define who she is. Her story in TLJ and TROS is to get her past unraveled, learn to deal with it and accept that she has to find her place in the universe on her own. Really worked for me. It was exactly what I was hoping she would do by the end.

 

He was seemingly obliterated by an army of ships... and then seemingly stabbed with a lightsaber.

 

At no point was his death implied. It lasted seconds tops. That's a reach and a half.