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The Visual Poetry Thread - Because there's always one :)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Jayson, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. Meister Yoda

    Meister Yoda Your Little Green Friend
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    Actually isn't it poetic that when Ben heard his grandfather it in fact was Palpatine but Rey Palpatine heard the real Anakin?
     
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  2. Pizza Time

    Pizza Time Rebel General

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    That is, it brings up the thought that maybe Anakin let Ben turn, knowing it would work out because of his trust in the force.
     
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  3. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    I've just returned from seeing TRoS for the 3rd time and I picked up on a couple more things (sorry if these have been mentioned already).

    The TRoS end space battle in the atmosphere of Exagol mirrors chiastic(?) the RotS opening space battle in the atmosphere of Coruscant.

    Palpatine zapping the Resistance fleet to pieces in the sky over Exagol (TRoS) mirrors the Holdo Maneuver (TLJ) where Holdo's ship tears apart the First Order fleet. In both cases white light splits the ships apart and both instances are preceded by silence (albite much shorter in TRoS).

    The arena full of people attending Rey's audience with Palpatine in TRoS mirrors the arena full of people witnessing the pod race in TPM.

    (There are a ton of similarities between the throne hall scene in TRoS and the throne room scene in RotJ, but I can't be bothered listing them all).

    Also, the yin/yang thing between Rey & Kylo is visually explisit in TRoS with Rey-in-white in the black night of the dark streets of Kijimi vs. Kylo-in-black inside his white private quarters on the stardestroyer. At one point there is even a transition (an in-camera thing, I think) where you see both characters & locations at once, split by a vertical transition line; very cool
     
    #83 Angelman, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
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  4. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Here's an interesting structure in the saga related to balance conveyed in the form of visual poetry (within visual poetry?):

    We have ROTS -> ROTJ <- TROS, with ROTJ being in the middle. At the end of ROTJ, Anakin fulfills the prophecy and brings balance by overcoming the dark side and reclaiming his name and identity being freed from servitude to Sidious and the dark side.

    On the "left" of ROTJ is ROTS. In this final episode of the PT we have two duels, the one on Mustafar (environment of fire) and the one on Coruscant in the Senate chamber. On Mustafar, Anakin is defeated and in turn becomes Darth Vader with the mask. The duel between Yoda and Sidious externalizes what's happening inside of Anakin which is causing his defeat, and bringing the imbalance. That is, Yoda representing the teachings of the Jedi within Anakin, while Sidious represents the teachings of the Sith. Inside Anakin, the Sith teachings win and the Jedi teachings go into exile. So Vader is born and Anakin Skywalker dies.

    On the "right" side of ROTJ is TROS. In this final episode of the ST we also have the two duels, the one on the Endor moon (environment of water) and the one on Exogol in the Sith chamber. On the Endor moon, Kylo is defeated and in turn becomes Ben Solo without the mask. The duel between Rey and Sidious externalizes what happens inside of Anakin which is causing his victory, and restoring the balance. That is, Rey is representing the teachings of the Jedi within Anakin, while Sidious represents the teachings of the Sith. Inside Anakin, the Jedi teachings win and the Sith teachings go into exile. So Anakin returns and Darth Vader dies.

    In the "middle" is ROTJ which thematically "balances" the two other final episodes which come before and after, both pointing toward the middle as externalized representations of the fulfillment of the balance. So at the moment in ROTJ, when Luke is calling out to his father while Sidious shoots force lightning, we could "zoom inside" Vader we could see the duels of ROTS and TROS playing out as "past" and "future" with Vader in the middle standing in the middle at the moment of choice. So in ROTS, the name Skywalker is rejected and in TROS the name Skywalker is claimed - which is also what happens at the end of ROTJ in that the Skywalker name which had been rejected is (re)claimed.

    From a certain point of view, the entire saga is about Anakin Skywalker's bringing of balance within himself at the moment of decision in ROTJ with the PT being the proverbial devil on his left shoulder and the ST being the proverbial angel on his right, which itself is a balance (within a balance?). The figurative within the literal, as it were.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2020 ---
    A thought that comes to mind as I typed that is that in ROTJ Luke mentions the name Skywalker and Vader replies "that name no longer has any meaning to me" to which Luke replies "It's the name of your true self" - while in TROS the name Skywalker holds great meaning and Rey claims it as the name of her "true self" in the final scene. So Luke's words "the name of your true self" in ROTJ actually returns to become the theme of TROS. In fact, "Skywalker" being given that great meaning, is the final word of the saga.
     
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  5. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Jedi Commander

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    Magnificent post @iostream :)

    I feel like I see so many visual references/patterns in TRoS every time I’ve watched it, if only I had some kind of ‘brain ticker-tape’ to make note of them lol.

    Yes! I think it’s also like the arena in Geonosis in AOTC, and also the Galactic Senate in the prequels.
     
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  6. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    Screenshot_20200110-095251_Instagram.jpg Screenshot_20200110-100041_Instagram.jpg
     
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  7. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Force Sensitive

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    These are by far the most powerful chiasmatic reverse-imagery I recognized from Revenge Of The Sith (ROTS) to The Rise Of Skywalker (TROS)... although the following are not the best representation, they are the images I could find:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    In TROS itself (not exactly identical imagery, but thematic reprisal) at the beginning of the movie, Rey has the vision of the throne and afterward she begins to doubt herself and gives the lightsaber to Leia saying she isn't worthy of it - but Leia soon gives it back to her telling her not to be afraid of who she is.

    Later in the movie, Rey finds out she is a Palpatine and her doubt in herself is cemented, she goes to Ach-To where instead of giving the saber away, she forcefully throws it away and this time into Luke's hand which catches it and he gives it back to her, and teaches her not to be afraid of who she is.
     
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  9. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    All this sequence. It looks beautiful on both movies.

    It rhymes.
     
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  10. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Great find. That is such an obvious reprise, how did I possibly miss that?
     
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  11. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    The Solo with the same saber.

    Screenshot_20200125-144418_Instagram.jpg
     
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  12. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    I don't know.... Same saber yes, but Solo is slicing a Tauntaun and Ben Solo is fighting for his life and not even the camera angle, their posture or face expression is the same. A bit far fetched, I don't think JJ was thinking about Solo when he shot that scene. I need more convincing!
     
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  13. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Actually there are a lot of those far fetched posts in this thread. This is not how visual poetry works. Real visual poerty uses the same camera angles and even color grading. Furthermore the visuals have to be in the same context. An example for real visual poetry is this one:
    starwars-visualsymmetry-luke-obiwan.jpg

    1) The camera angle is the same
    2) almost the same color grading (bright colors)
    3) the context is the same (Obi-Wan and Luke lose their mentors).
     
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  14. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Good points. And both are from the first Episode of the Trilogy. Imo if we're talking visual poetry and one what meant George Lucas can't just throw these categories out.
     
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  15. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Maybe, but surely the eagerness to contribute can be appreciated. If we're digging for gold, a person may occasionally bring up some pyrite but though they may not have unearthed true gold this very time they've still shown that they're working toward a common purpose. It's up to the person examining the finds to determine their value. I appreciate every post in this thread, gold or pyrite, for this very reason.

    This is not actually true. Your example is one form of visual poetry, but poetry can be inverted, involuted, recontextualized, etc.

    No, the camera angle doesn't have to be the same. An example would be a mirrored angle with the same pattern of imagery at a specific point in the narrative structure. For example if we open Act 2 with a person standing into frame to shout YES! from a left angle in one movement, then open Act 2 with a person standing into frame to shout NO! from a right angle in another movement, that is visually rhyming.

    No, again we can open Act 3 with a large collective group of people in a brightly lit forum; and we can open Act 3 of a following episode with a large collective group of people in a dark forum and it's a visual rhyme.

    No, we can open one movement with a pan-down revealing a space station above a planet, then a larger ship comes into view chasing a smaller ship while firing on it in an act of war; then open a following movement with a pan-down revealing a space station above a planet, the a larger ship comes into view following a smaller ship as an escort on a peaceful mission and it's visual rhyme.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 26, 2020 ---
    Oh but I was going to post another. This is another that's more thematic in nature than visual, I hope no one minds, it's a thematic rhyme, at any rate. I realized in another thread that in ROTS we have a Palpatine declaring "rise" to a Skywalker; that Skywalker rising to lose his identity and claim a new name as a Sith. In TROS we have a Skywalker declaring "rise" to a Palpatine; that Palpatine rising to find her identity and claim a new name as a Jedi.
     
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  16. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    @iostream, where do you get from that I don't appreciate every post?

    But to get back to the actual topic- we are talking about George Lucas view of visual poetry.


    Furthermore I rather trust my film education, my lecturers and my personal studies of John Truby and Greg Keast than a random person on the internet. No disrespect to you though.
     
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  17. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    I didn't get that you don't appreciate every post. My first question of appreciation was rhetorical - I used the word "surely" (as in, surely you as well as me) to indicate this. The reason I placed that prelude into my post wasn't to imply you didn't appreciate anything (indeed the use of the rhetoric was meant to imply the opposite), but to encourage people who are posting in the thread and may have been discouraged by your words.

    Let me be clear that I'm not implying that you were intentionally attempting to discourage anyone, but in the case your words may have unintentionally planted a discouraging seed in anyone's spirit, I meant to plant a seed of encouragement in its place. It's like when a teacher has something negative to say to a student, then they may follow that with something positive so as not to quench the spirit, as it were.

    Well, that's certainly a 23-second clip of Lucas stating that poetry rhymes - that is, stanzas are similar. But similar is not often identical. Visual rhyme, like written rhyme, can take multiple forms. Again, if we open act 1 with a brightly-lit Jedi temple, then open act 2 with a dimly-lit Sith temple, it is visually poetic (it is similar, it rhymes). The two scenes don't need the same brightness to be considered similar; their similarity is in the inverse settings occurring at the same point of the movement (i.e. opening scene).

    The point being that poetry has multiple forms and your list of criteria is only one of them.

    Yeah but that's a reasoning fallacy called namedropping. You're not actually addressing anything being said, you're just puffing yourself up and dropping names to lead the reader into believing your words have merit through rhetorically associating your words with the names being dropped, even though you're not producing any kind of support for your limited view of visual poetry as being reasonably justified.

    As a side note I personally feel that most teachers - and the subsequent trust in them - are overrated, most being simply cogs in an intellectually unsound machine perpetuating itself through and due to an inability to reason itself out of the cycle of misguidance. Students are caught in a cycle of what to think without ever being taught how to think. Due to this, name dropping will never go anywhere with me.
     
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  18. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Master of Coin
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    I was of the mind that if Rey had been "Just Rey" her adoption of the Skywalker name would have landed much better, at least with me. But this viewpoint poetry brought me back to loving it again. Thanks for sharing!
     
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  19. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

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    Thanks and I, in turn, would thank everyone for sharing since it's only in response to that which others share that move my thoughts in a given direction. So it's ultimately a group dependent chain reaction of thought, everyone being important to the substance of the whole.

    On a side note, I realize your use of "Just Rey" is being used by implication of bloodline but I'd propose the "Just Rey" scenario is actually thematically true in TROS. This is because the question of identity is being moved(elevated) from blood to heart. While in TLJ Rey is "Just Rey" because she has no major tie to a familial bloodline, when TROS elevates the context of identity away from blood up to heart, Rey is again "Just Rey" in that context. It isn't until the end of the story that Rey becomes "Rey Someone" solely because of her heart.

    In another thread I mentioned how the coda of Rey on Tatooine is a rhyme of the coda of Broom Boy in TLJ. The two are "Just X" by reckoning of "heart-lineage" but both are of the Skywalker "family" by heart. Broom Boy is actually Broom Skywalker, reckoning by heart-lineage, as it were. Anyone who stands for the same ideas is of the Skywalker family by spirit, and can claim the name, no matter of their blood lineage they are "Just X" when reckoned by spirit, and able to claim the name Skywalker. Clearly there's also a meta-application being conveyed to the viewer in the sense that, even if your bloodline is something else, if your heart is the same then "You, too, are a spiritual Skywalker, and the Skywalker legacy is yours!"

    It's all actually pulled from the bible, and the elevation of the reckoning of the heritage of the name of Israel from out of blood and into spirit. Rey's symbolic of the living temple, and the movement of the name from former glory to latter glory. But that's another topic altogether.
     
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  20. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    This has probably been noted before, but these scenes are totally related/mirrored/reversed:

    Cqt7rBUXgAAlAsv.jpg large.jpg
    maxresdefault.jpg
     
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