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Theory on RJ's TLJ subversions.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    A thought has occurred to me. I wrote this thought in another thread, but thought it might make an interesting discussion.

    TLJ has a lot of subversion, plot twists and the like, so it got me to thinking. Do you think there's a chance that RJ and his team actually looked at fan theories and consciously went out of their way to subvert the more popular ones, insuring that TLJ would be surprising by most if not all fans (at least in some ways)?

    Using twitter and forums and the like to take a story down uncharted territory by deliberately not doing what large portions of the fandom expects would be pretty innovative. In my post I state it could even be compared to something as innovative as reality TV was.

    Whether or not you liked TLJ, if RJ used this free information in this way, it could go down as a historic new method of film making that can have a huge impact on film moving forward.

    What are you thoughts, I'm curious.
     
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  2. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    One thing's for sure. I left that movie frustrated, confused, depressed, angry & questionful.

    What is a greater term then subversion if one exhists?
     
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  3. The Last Jorgny

    The Last Jorgny Rebel Official

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    The script for The Last Jedi was done before The Force Awakens came out, and i doubt they changed big parts in post just to subvert expectations.

    The surprises and twist aren't there for shock factor, it was just the direction Rian thought worked best for the characters. Evidently, a lot of people dissagree with those choices, a lot of people don't. I loved it.
     
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  4. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    It is predefined and well thought story. Rey is a tool of the will of the Force, just like Anakin, and Luke.
    Jet, she is most unique character in the history of Star Wars, and the ultimate tool of the will of the Force..
    Anakin was child of a slave woman and the Cosmic Force.Luke was his son, and son of a Padme from Naboo, jet also defined as the chosen one by the words of Obi-Wan.Rey is a child of a woman that came from the people who were original Force masters eons ago from a distant forgotten world, and the Luke who is son of Chosen One and the chosen to.Cosmic Force was about to balance itself by joining ancient,the origins,("the Abrahams") of the knowledge about the Force, with its modern intervention by birth of Skywalker, into a perfect tool of its Will. It is so genial and perfect that even if its leaked It can not do the harm since SW future is bright by this. I admire those people.The Last Jedi was preparation for the grand finale, and after watching ep. IX .
     
    #4 McDiarmid, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
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  5. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Just seeing the previews of TFA I thought Rey could be a Skywalker, Snoke was an emperor stand in (and thus probably live until EPIX) ect... Obviously Holdo was unexpected since her character didn't exist until TLJ. All I'm saying is that many fan theories started before TFA even came out. Some of those theories fans thought TFA supported.

    However, in no way am I trying to convince you this is what he did, as it's quite possible he didn't and that's more than fair.
     
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  6. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    No one in the right mind, especially not the team as experienced in story telling as Lucasfilm's makes a movie like this. Whether you fulfill all the fandom wishes or you are consciously trying to subvert those expectations, that would mean that you are relying on someone else (or in this case many someone elses, because fandom doesn't have an unified opinion on anything) to tell your stories.

    For me personally, the only surprise was Snoke's death since as a fan of OT I expected him to be a Big Bad like the Emperor. And when I went back and read some of the older interviews, especially JJ's who told us that ST is partially villain's origin story - Kylo killing Snoke was not really that surprising. Everything else pretty much naturally flowed from the story points introduced in TFA. Luke was in self imposed exile and didn't come to help his friends. The questions of TFA were why and why. He felt guilt was answer to the first question and he didn't know what happened because he disconnected himself from the Force to the second one. It was a natural progression of the story that follows only a couple of days or even hours after the events of TFA. So, I don't think this theory really stands.

    The case could have been argued if we got a time jump between the two movies both in-world and in real life (lets say if TLJ was released this year), but I still don't believe that is how LFL would make a movie. Why be a story teller if you are going to use someone else's opinion to tell it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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  7. Mosley909

    Mosley909 Rebel Official

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    the simple answer is no as Johnson has stated several times that the script for the Last Jedi was written before The Force Awakens was released and has hardly changed from first draft.
    If you also look at timescale it backs up Johnsons statements as the last Jedi went in to production only a few months after the Force Awakens came out, their simply wouldn't be time to have done what you suggested and finish a script.
    I do feel however one of Johnsons main aims with the film was to shock and surprise audiences, something which i think most people can agree he achieved.
     
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  8. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I'm curious, I suppose a follow up question would be if this was the method RJ created some of TLJ, would that make it less or more to you?

    For myself, I mostly agree with you that it seems kind of a cheap way to tell a story. However, there's no reason someone couldn't use this method and make a perfectly acceptable story using their own imagination but avoiding the ideas of others. It could even be something like RJ and the creative team felt they couldn't get away from all the fan theories and felt so influenced by them that they decided to write on two chalk boards. A fan theory chalk board to be avoided and one that they felt was original and fresh and served the story well, propelling it into a new direction.

    For me, I don't think my opinion of the movie would change (I didn't like it), yet I'd find his using a strange and never before documented method interesting from a writing stand point. I'm not a fan of reality tv, and I think I'd probably not be a huge fan of this method, but this method really would only work on already set universes like SW and star trek with precious few others that have enough material to get a fandom so invested in anticipating all the possible angles moving forward.

    By being there at the beginning of this phenomena, I'd find it interesting being part of the audience to first experience a new innovation.
     
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  9. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I honestly don't know. I am mostly happy with what we got in TLJ, so I don't know how I would feel. It is possible that it would have cheapened the story somewhat in my eyes. I'd like to believe that everything we got was a result of creative decisions not some online polling. And, if I didn't like it, I can see a scenario in which this would piss me off immensely.

    You can never get away from all the fan theories, especially in something as popular as Star Wars. But, I will always hope that the creators would follow their ideas and creative choices wherever they take them.
     
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  10. Sparafucile

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    Just to be clear, I didn't write this thread to minimize TLJ in anyone's eyes. The thought occurred to me and I thought I'd share and see what others thoughts were. No more, no less. I'm not suggesting that you're accusing me of that, but I think most people feel icky at the thought of this at first glance. It suggests a lack of creativity of everyone involved, and I'm sensitive to the resistance to the mere mention of this as a possibility.

    If you disagree with the idea, take heart, I think you're probably right. I respect that and have no compunction to try and influence you either way.

    Moving along, predefined is probably the key word.

    However I think a writer can still make a good story if he/she actively avoids certain fan theories. If you like this movie and you allow yourself to consider a "what if" scenario that they did use this innovative method, would it make it any less? You already like the story. You're theory on Jet is interesting, but hardly a certainty.

    I know my initial gut feeling was that it would feel cheap. As someone who disliked TLJ, I'd probably even think "and there it is, I felt something was off". However I posted this a few days back and honestly, done right, I think it could probably work well. A common complaint about Hollywood and Disney is that everything seems to be a rehash. They keep following a method that works, and rarely dare to go outside of a set style that surprises. So as much as my opinion on the movie wouldn't change, a part of me would have to give RJ props for trying to use innovative ideas to break that mold and keep the audience guessing.
     
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  11. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I'd say this image and the way Snoke was treated in VIII speak for themselves.
    johnson-snokejpeg.jpeg
     
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  12. garakvsneelix

    garakvsneelix Clone Commander

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    The photo, BobRoss has posted, stands for all the things n Episode VIII, I didn't like. Don't let me be missunderstood, Episode VIII wasn't a bad movie, in my eyes, but I really didn't like the way, RJ broke with all the rules and all the expectations. Of course, there have to be some surprises and some really went well (Snoke's death), but than again he really played too much with our expectations and hopes. For example, I really hate the way, he used the "I have a bad feeling about this" - BB-8, really? While it was cool in "Rogue One", that K2-SO wasn't allowed to finish the sentence, the "hiding" of the phrase in Episode VIII was, in my eyes, a very poor idea. And this is just a little detail.
     
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  13. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    Can you really subvert fan theories though?

    After the release of TFA, I think it'd be safe to say that a large majority of people thought Rey was a Skywalker, the daughter of Luke... but was that ever based on anything more than a gut feeling?

    I only ask that because as time went on, that group seemed to split up. Of course people still thought she was a Skywalker, but some thought she was a Solo, others a Kenobi, Palpatine, etc. and others thought she came from no one of significance... my point being is that there never really was any overwhelming evidence to point everyone in a specific direction, and because of that, I don't think you can call what Rian Johnson did subversion.
     
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  14. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    I personally think that if RJ bowed to the fan theories, then he's just plain old lazy, and would hope that he never does THAT again....especially with some of the unimpressive theories floating around at present.....but I don't believe that's what he did.

    See, the problem is that when TFA aired, people were pissed that "it was too much like the OT", so Rian said "Then here ya' go!!" and handed us TLJ and (I believe) that the same people lost their minds because "it's too different from the OT!!"...make up your mind please.

    That being said; I think that despite (what I feel are) it's failings, that Rian did a good job...not great, but "Good".

    Did I like the movie?: It's more Star Wars, so yes...but I didn't love it. While I felt that Rian DID do a good job, there seemed to be some key scenes that were ad-libbed and contrived, and ultimately took away large quantities of enjoyment for me personally...I felt like my brow was furled during too much of the film.

    I guess in the end, I didn't mind the story that Rian gave me, I just didn't like the way it was portrayed on the screen....if you can understand that, and I think that's why most people are angry.

    It's still Star Wars, so I'll take it. :)
     
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  15. Demsa Aztor

    Demsa Aztor Rebel General

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    I'm still pondering about this, but this is my take so far. I see TLJ as Rian's "show piece" to the film industry, not fans and not Star Wars. We can debate whether a director should or shouldn't cater to the audience, but this is not my point. He did what he wanted to do to appease film makers and enthusiasts using the ultimate platform without really regarding the lore of the franchise and subverting expectations for the sake it rather than it be appropriate in the narrative. The subverting of expectations became the big focus at the cost of having real meat to the story and characters. I for one wanted him to be creative and subvert SOME expectations, but not at the cost of story and character arcs. You can try to shock people, but not to the point where people just don't want to continue watching these films. If you liked it, great, but this film has had a real adverse reaction from many fans. Subverting for the sake of subverting using this platform for your art, I'd remind him and say this isn't an indie.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    First of all we can toss out the general question of this thread. We knew RJ wrote this before TFA was release so fan theories were never involved.

    I like this trilogy so far and I'm sure JJ will finish with a crowd pleaser, but I'll be frank... This trilogy is rather pointless when compared to the previous two trilogies. If you wanted only the movies we're 2 films into this trilogy and no one has explained what the difference is between the resistance, the republic, and the rebellion. What is the first order? Is it the Empire? It looks like the Empire.

    I don't want to blame JJ for this, but who came up with this story? I feel like JJ created Empire lite vs. Rebellion lite and used Death Star lite to kill off the New Republic. Then ended his film in such a way that Episode VIII had to start right after the film.

    I expect Lucasfilm to use other methods to explain how the First Order grew out of the ashes of the Empire in the Unknown Regions with the help of Snoke, but to explain all of that in one film and serve all the characters that are involved is a recipe for disaster. I assume this is part of the reason some members of the story group rate The Force Awakens among their least favorite Star Wars films.

    Lucasfilm had no choice but to start up again with the Skywalker series, but I'm very happy they're at least taking a break from it for a while after 9. Again, I like the films, but I'm not sure this is a story that needed to be told.

    This is kind of a bigger question so I posted this thread idea over on the Sequel Trilogy board.
     
    #16 DailyPlunge, Mar 3, 2018
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  17. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Or maybe, just maybe, he did what he did because he thought that events that happened in The Last Jedi were needed, in his opinion, from storytelling perspective? No film is made in order to annoy the viewers. Every filmmaker hopes, that his/her film becomes a success and cinema goers will enjoy it and respond to it. Also, if he was so hell-bent on making surprises just for sake of surprises, why would he make a spreadsheet of all possible Rey's parents and write down every advantage and disadvantage of a particuar option and based on that choose the best option? You may dislike the film, but trying to dismiss the choices he made as "subversion for the sake of subversion" is simply far from truth.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

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    Chronology seems to preclude this possibility. I think people are overlooking that you were looking to give Rian credit if he had done it this way as it would have been innovative, even though you don't like the movie. I will say this, while it seems impossible he could have written in subversion based on social media theories, it is not at ALL impossible (or even unlikely) that Rian could anticipate the major questions that would come out of TFA and write with any eye to subverting them. The question about who's Rey parents were was one of the most obvious ones, Luke's whereabouts, Snoke's back story, why Finn breaks away, is there a romance possible with Rey? All questions that would pop up for even a casual fan. He wouldn't need to see social media reactions to anticipate these questions.
     
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    If you're going to complain, get your facts straight first... Pablo Hidalgo first shared the YSTS thing, and RJ only posted an image of himself with it at a friend's request.
    So has absolutely every Star Wars movie aside from the first.
     
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  20. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    As it is.
     
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