Theory on RJ's TLJ subversions.

One thing's for sure. I left that movie frustrated, confused, depressed, angry & questionful.

What is a greater term then subversion if one exhists?

 

The script for The Last Jedi was done before The Force Awakens came out, and i doubt they changed big parts in post just to subvert expectations.

The surprises and twist aren't there for shock factor, it was just the direction Rian thought worked best for the characters. Evidently, a lot of people dissagree with those choices, a lot of people don't. I loved it.

 

Spoiler: Rey Origins

It is predefined and well thought story. Rey is a tool of the will of the Force, just like Anakin, and Luke.
Jet, she is most unique character in the history of Star Wars, and the ultimate tool of the will of the Force..
Anakin was child of a slave woman and the Cosmic Force.Luke was his son, and son of a Padme from Naboo, jet also defined as the chosen one by the words of Obi-Wan.Rey is a child of a woman that came from the people who were original Force masters eons ago from a distant forgotten world, and the Luke who is son of Chosen One and the chosen to.Cosmic Force was about to balance itself by joining ancient,the origins,("the Abrahams") of the knowledge about the Force, with its modern intervention by birth of Skywalker, into a perfect tool of its Will. It is so genial and perfect that even if its leaked It can not do the harm since SW future is bright by this. I admire those people.The Last Jedi was preparation for the grand finale, and after watching ep. IX .

 

the simple answer is no as Johnson has stated several times that the script for the Last Jedi was written before The Force Awakens was released and has hardly changed from first draft.
If you also look at timescale it backs up Johnsons statements as the last Jedi went in to production only a few months after the Force Awakens came out, their simply wouldn't be time to have done what you suggested and finish a script.
I do feel however one of Johnsons main aims with the film was to shock and surprise audiences, something which i think most people can agree he achieved.

 

The photo, BobRoss has posted, stands for all the things n Episode VIII, I didn't like. Don't let me be missunderstood, Episode VIII wasn't a bad movie, in my eyes, but I really didn't like the way, RJ broke with all the rules and all the expectations. Of course, there have to be some surprises and some really went well (Snoke's death), but than again he really played too much with our expectations and hopes. For example, I really hate the way, he used the "I have a bad feeling about this" - BB-8, really? While it was cool in "Rogue One", that K2-SO wasn't allowed to finish the sentence, the "hiding" of the phrase in Episode VIII was, in my eyes, a very poor idea. And this is just a little detail.

 

Can you really subvert fan theories though?

After the release of TFA, I think it'd be safe to say that a large majority of people thought Rey was a Skywalker, the daughter of Luke... but was that ever based on anything more than a gut feeling?

I only ask that because as time went on, that group seemed to split up. Of course people still thought she was a Skywalker, but some thought she was a Solo, others a Kenobi, Palpatine, etc. and others thought she came from no one of significance... my point being is that there never really was any overwhelming evidence to point everyone in a specific direction, and because of that, I don't think you can call what Rian Johnson did subversion.

 

I'm still pondering about this, but this is my take so far. I see TLJ as Rian's "show piece" to the film industry, not fans and not Star Wars. We can debate whether a director should or shouldn't cater to the audience, but this is not my point. He did what he wanted to do to appease film makers and enthusiasts using the ultimate platform without really regarding the lore of the franchise and subverting expectations for the sake it rather than it be appropriate in the narrative. The subverting of expectations became the big focus at the cost of having real meat to the story and characters. I for one wanted him to be creative and subvert SOME expectations, but not at the cost of story and character arcs. You can try to shock people, but not to the point where people just don't want to continue watching these films. If you liked it, great, but this film has had a real adverse reaction from many fans. Subverting for the sake of subverting using this platform for your art, I'd remind him and say this isn't an indie.

 

First of all we can toss out the general question of this thread. We knew RJ wrote this before TFA was release so fan theories were never involved.

I like this trilogy so far and I'm sure JJ will finish with a crowd pleaser, but I'll be frank... This trilogy is rather pointless when compared to the previous two trilogies. If you wanted only the movies we're 2 films into this trilogy and no one has explained what the difference is between the resistance, the republic, and the rebellion. What is the first order? Is it the Empire? It looks like the Empire.

I don't want to blame JJ for this, but who came up with this story? I feel like JJ created Empire lite vs. Rebellion lite and used Death Star lite to kill off the New Republic. Then ended his film in such a way that Episode VIII had to start right after the film.

I expect Lucasfilm to use other methods to explain how the First Order grew out of the ashes of the Empire in the Unknown Regions with the help of Snoke, but to explain all of that in one film and serve all the characters that are involved is a recipe for disaster. I assume this is part of the reason some members of the story group rate The Force Awakens among their least favorite Star Wars films.

Lucasfilm had no choice but to start up again with the Skywalker series, but I'm very happy they're at least taking a break from it for a while after 9. Again, I like the films, but I'm not sure this is a story that needed to be told.

This is kind of a bigger question so I posted this thread idea over on the Sequel Trilogy board.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, he did what he did because he thought that events that happened in The Last Jedi were needed, in his opinion, from storytelling perspective? No film is made in order to annoy the viewers. Every filmmaker hopes, that his/her film becomes a success and cinema goers will enjoy it and respond to it. Also, if he was so hell-bent on making surprises just for sake of surprises, why would he make a spreadsheet of all possible Rey's parents and write down every advantage and disadvantage of a particuar option and based on that choose the best option? You may dislike the film, but trying to dismiss the choices he made as "subversion for the sake of subversion" is simply far from truth.

 

Chronology seems to preclude this possibility. I think people are overlooking that you were looking to give Rian credit if he had done it this way as it would have been innovative, even though you don't like the movie. I will say this, while it seems impossible he could have written in subversion based on social media theories, it is not at ALL impossible (or even unlikely) that Rian could anticipate the major questions that would come out of TFA and write with any eye to subverting them. The question about who's Rey parents were was one of the most obvious ones, Luke's whereabouts, Snoke's back story, why Finn breaks away, is there a romance possible with Rey? All questions that would pop up for even a casual fan. He wouldn't need to see social media reactions to anticipate these questions.

 

As it is.