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Theory on RJ's TLJ subversions.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Demsa Aztor

    Demsa Aztor Rebel General

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    You're entitled to your opinion. But clearly some of the decisions he made was not for the betterment of the film. And yes, I think there's an element of shock for the sake of shock.


     
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  2. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    And how exactly does this prove that Rian didn't follow that line of thinking? He didn't print the sticker himself, so what? Does this automatically mean that he didn't agree with this line of thinking? If so, why would he pose with a sticker like the one in the image? Rian clearly knew about the expectations fans had and deliberately tried to do something they wouldn't expect not because he wanted to upset them, but because he wanted to avoid the accusations TFA was facing when people called it a rehash of ANH. I mean come on, Rian even had to said this about his favorite Snoke theory:

    “Somebody – I think this is more of a joke than a theory. I don’t know who it was. They had a theory on who Snoke was. In Attack on the Clones, when Anakin is slicing the pear for Padme before he floats it over to her, they took a freeze frame of that and then put it side-by-side with the slice in Snoke’s head,” Johnson explained.

    So it's pretty clear that Rian was well aware of the theories out there... Btw thanks for the "trolling" rating. Can't have different oppinions about TLJ and Rian on this message board, can we ;)
     
    #22 BobRoss, Mar 3, 2018
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  3. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    A movie cannot just rely on shocking the viewer in the long run as I’m anxious to see what both sides think of TLJ on repeat viewings.

    The key to this movie will be the narrative, the characters, the drama, the humor and how that works for fans in 2-3 years since we all know Snoke dies and Luke tosses his saber. I don’t have an answer but it will be interesting to see fans thoughts this summer after everyone has digested the home release.
     
  4. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi Commander

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    I'm absolutely certain they browse this forum for ideas. Why else would they name the best pilot in the Resistance Po(body's Nerfect) Dameron?
     
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  5. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    You're entitled to your opinion. But clearly none of the decisions he made was not for the betterment of the film in his opinion. And no, I think there's no element of shock for the sake of shock.

    There's no point in discussing it any longer. You and others claim Rian made the decisions he made just for the sake of cheap thrills. I and others believe that there's a reason for every twist in the film. I won't change my mind and so won't you. Let's finish this futile exchange and
    [​IMG]
     
    #25 Pawek_13, Mar 3, 2018
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    How could he avoid accusations of a rehash when those accusations happened after the story was finished?
     
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  7. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Principal photography of TLJ started 3 months after the release of TFA. By the time TFA hit theaters TLJ's script wasn't even finished. If you really think that screenplays are unchangeable and don't get influenced by external factors even into the late stages of production then clearly you haven't been paying attention to what has happened to SOLO or R1.
     
    #27 BobRoss, Mar 3, 2018
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    RJ filmed on Skellig Michael months before TFA was released. Also, let's not move the goalposts. Slight changes to a screenplay during production isn't what you described. You have RJ changing the film to avoid rehash accusations 3-4 months after filming had started. The major story elements were already decided before TFA was released.
     
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  9. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Major story elements often depend on a line of dialogue or the editing of scenes, nothing more, nothing less. Let Snoke tell Kylo who he is and where he's been during the OT. This can all happen within one minute dialogue between Snoke and Kylo. Don't want Luke to die? Simple, just cut the 10 seconds where he vanishes into thin air. Now he is no longer dead but really, really exhausted. Want Leia to die? Cut her scenes after we see her floating lifeless in Space, include her into that little speech when Ackbar's death was explained to the audiences.

    George Lucas said you shoot a movie 3 times. Once in preproduction, once in principal production and once in post. Did you know that in ANH they never intended the Death Star to attack Yavin 4 until freaking POSTPRODUCTION? Lucas' wife felt like the Rebels attack would feel more like a terrorist attack rather than heroic self defense so they intercut the filmed scenes with "infographics" of the death star approaching Yavin combined with repurposed scenes and voiceovers. Disney reshot more than half of SOLO and you think that TLJ wasn't influenced in any way by external facors?

    Most of the surprises in TLJ resulted out of not including scenes about the Knights of Ren, not explaining Snoke's background, not adapting Leias story to Carrie's death, not explaining the story of the lightsaber, Rey not having a Kenobi or Skywalker lineage. Not including certain things into TLJ wasn't as hard as adding them. Not explaining things requires less planning than explaining things:p
     
    #29 BobRoss, Mar 3, 2018
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  10. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Let's for a moment indulge your fantasy.

    RJ writes a script and starts filming in September 2015. The Force Awakens is released in December 2015. So between December 2015-July 2016 Rian Johnson decides to change the film simply because of internet feedback?

    This is silly.
     
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  11. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Why would this be silly? Every other director would be like. Damn, I wanted Snoke to die without a background story but I guess fans are really into these Snoke theories. I'm not giving them the theories they expect but I certainly won't take a character, which has gotten so much attention over the last two years out of the story without an explaination. Let's meet with the story group and reshoot some of Serkis' dialogue. Maybe Snoke was one of Palpatines advisors as seen in ROTJ, a force sensitive who never managed to impress the Emperor because Vader was so much stronger. The Emperor even disfigured him with a forcelightning when he tried to compete for Vaders position and failed. But now the tides have turned and finally Snoke is in charge of the skywalker family. Mwahahaha... done. Snoke explained, kill him off.

    Again, listening to feedback is critical! Why would anyone not give the fans an explaination if they are so clearly looking forward to it? Kill Snoke off I don't care but at least let the audiences know who he was! Let's indulge in Fantasy you say; if Rian had a theory about Snoke, filmed and everything he could have simply cut it out at any point in the production and we would be exactly where we are today. I'm not saying nor suggesting this is what happend but I'm using this example to show you how easy it would be to achieve what TLJ did even in late post production and thus how easy it would have been to react to "TFA was so predictable".
     
    #31 BobRoss, Mar 3, 2018
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  12. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    Rian Johnson: "You're working on the script up till the moment you lock picture." (deleted tweet; he's deleted all his old tweets recently. This tweet was in reply to someone mentioning Lawrence Kasdan saying in May 2014 that he was still working on the Episode VII script.*)

    Movies are never done before the very last moment they are locked.

    https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/features/star-wars-the-last-jedi-14-things-we-learned-w513392

    * Kasdan later said he rewrote The Force Awakens all the way up to November 2015: "A lot of the writing happened while we were shooting. We had a first draft in six weeks, but then we’ve writing for another two years. It’s really changed a lot over that time. Harrison had a big impact.”
     
    #32 MagnarTheGreat, Mar 4, 2018
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  13. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    Well... we still have another film, so there’s still room for a backstory.
     
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  14. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    Sure. I'm once again counting on Disney listening to feedback. I'm sure they are aware now that fans were expecting revelations rather than unrelateable twists and I'm hopeful that IX will be the part of the trilogy designed to connect the other movies and reveal some of the secrets TLJ ignored.
     
    #34 BobRoss, Mar 4, 2018
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  15. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    Sadly I lost this hope, especially after the way JJ addressed the fanbase lately. It is not really what he said which bares some truth, but the way he did it. This shows me LFL's approach. They simply don't care for their fanbase anymore, they see themselve superior and beyond any valid criticism. That's something that happens to most politicians as well. :(
     
  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    Thanks, but that's not really being discussed. The claim is that RJ and Lucasfilm made changes to the story simply due to complaints that TFA was a rehash. There were no major story changes that late into the game.
     
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  17. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I feel similar about it but I do not share your pessimism. Disney is a company, they want to make money. There's a lot of change coming our way in 2019. Iger won't be the head of Disney any longer and Solo might very well turn out to be a breaking point for the future of Lucasfilm. High end positions, such as the one Kathy Kennedy currently holds are highly competitive. R1 had expensive reshoots, TLJ underperformed at the BO, the SOLO movie required even more reshoots. While Disney is still making money off the IP (and I don't expect this to change anytime soon) KK hasn't met expectations for quite a while now. She knows that you can only have so many "creative differences" until the studioheads start to realize that maybe you are at the center of all the drama and when there are capable people like Filoni waiting in line to take over your position you'll probably start to reconsider your preferences. So I'm confidet that the direction Lucasfilm is currently going will see some drastic changes in the near future aimed at being more inclusive as far as longtime fans are concerned.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 4, 2018 ---
    Magnarthegreat literally showed you a statement made by Johnson himself highlighting how volatile the production process of a SW movie is. I showed you examples of how much ANH was changed in the late stages of post production to further demonstrate this line of thinking which started with George Lucas himself. There's a statement of Rian that confirms that real life influences (or patterns as he calls them) helped to shape his screenplay: "I had to be conscious of them and even incorporate them. This can't drive it, but you have to incorporate them, almost in a meta (!!!!) way, into the narrative itself."There is a 3 month gap between the premiere of TFA and the start (!) of principal photography of TLJ which is more than enough time to react to TFA feedback, which Johnson was clearly aware of. Just admit it, there's nothing that could change your mind, is there?
     
    #37 BobRoss, Mar 4, 2018
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  18. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    I don't think so. There is only one specific moment which had a clear subversive element because they knew how the audience had responded to Luke's reveal in VII. They decided to allow Luke to throw away the sabre. It's an on the nose moment, but it made immediately clear to the audience that the hero they imagined did not end up being the hero they'd finally meet. It's a reflection of Rey's experience of meeting Luke and immediately shoves the main theme of this movie in the audience's face.
     
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  19. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    Yes sure, but what can be changed now? The damage Rian has done is almost not repairable. I mean Luke's character damage is done and he is dead now. There is very little storywise you can do now without making it completely ridiculous or a full parody. I just think JJ will move on as planned and bring Rey, Poe and Kylo into the center. Again less Finn, since he was not well used in both previous movies. But to be honest what is really interesting for IX? I have nothing to discuss or speculate about that movie and this speaks for itself. My plans are not buying tickets for that movie and watch it a year later on paytv like I will do with Solo. Until then I know if this Reylo crap is included, if this happens, I will not even watch it on paytv. But so far only a big announcement of a more prominent role for Luke/Mark would bring me back caring for IX or getting any tickets for that movie. I don't fool myself and know this won't happen.
     
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  20. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I do think that VIII could be saved if IX retroactively explains some of the weirder decisions the characters made by putting them into a bigger picture. Basically a decision we thought to be "bad" in VIII is revealed to be necessary to avoid even worse consequences in IX. For example, Snoke, who we know isn't a Sith might have tricked Kylo into killing him since self sacrifice seems to be important to become a forceghost. Snoke might have used Kylo to free him of his decayning body and unleash the full power of a forceuser. This would serve multiple purposes. Snoke wasn't fooled by Kylo but the other way round. Snoke would have additional screentime in IX allowing the character to be explained in more detail. The forceghost of Yoda burning down the tree would now work as a setup highlighting that a forceghost can not only interact with the real world but it would have foreshadowed how extremely dangerous an evil force ghost like Snoke can be. It woudl also help to explain Luke's actions who sacrificed himself and wanted to die in order to become a forceghost himself so that he could fight Snoke on an even ground. Basically if you want to fight a forcghost you have to enter the realm of the living force as well (this would allow for pretty interesting visuals too). This retroactive explaination could also be extended to other characters. Hux for example only acted like an idiot in VIII because he knew about Snoke's plans and wanted Kylo to underestimate him (and by erxtension the audience) which means the shizophrenic treatment of TFA and TLJ Hux would make sense. Hux is portrayed as an idiot because this is what Snoke told him to do.

    I'm not sying that this idea of mine is a good one or well written or what should be done in IX. I'm just trying to say that there could be ways to correct certain scenes in VIII by putting them into context. When Snape killed Dumbledore I hated his character and I never thought that only one book later he would be one of my favourite characters. I'm not overly confident that JJ can pull something like this off in IX. But I won't give up hope just yet.
     
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