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Theory on RJ's TLJ subversions.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Sparafucile, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Could I just say something?

    There is no way RJ changed anything in his story to either please or shock the fans. There is also no way that JJ’s episode 9 will be influenced by anything he reads from fans. These big budget filmmakers are working with a team of SW experts and writers who are also fans, bouncing ideas, exploring possibilities. They don’t need the help of the general fandom to write these stories. They have enough help. The general fandom is there to be won over, not to co-writer.

    Films are modified all the time, and at any stage, and for many reasons, but usually because the creators want to make them better. Sometimes they are changed because of unfortunate external real life events (Kevin Spacey in All the Money of the World comes to mind). But I can’t see any valid reason why a reputable filmmaker and storyteller who very clearly believes in his own talent would be swayed by the diverse and often contradictory opinions and theories of fans. Any person who has experience writing knows that you only change a narrative if you feel in your heart of hearts your improving it. No serious writer would change a story just to shock or to please others. That’s just nonsense.
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I agree with you but I do think there are events that were influenced by the fandom. Lucas toned down Jar Jar after TPM and that was solely cause the fan revolt. I think JJ is going to make Episode 9 much more a crowd pleaser to balance out the Trilogy after the fan backlash with TLJ. It will resemble the OT with 2 crowd pleasers and 1 dark middle entry.
     
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  3. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    Your ideas sound great, like so many fan ideas before TLJ was out. Then we got Rian's approach who left us with nothing. I'm just at a point where I don't trust them anymore. I'm just slowly leaving. I will follow any lead up to IX only on a very random basis like with Solo. So for me to get a ticket for IX, I need to know exactly how Luke is handled. That's just how it is for me now out of experience. If I learn that something like your ideas are realized, I may go into cimema at a later time, but I will definately not go into premiere without knowing what will happen. That was a mistake I once did with TLJ.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 4, 2018 ---
    That's what I expect and that's why I don't believe that IX will be anything worth waching for me.
     
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  4. BobRoss

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    You are looking at this from a pretty outdated perspective. The industry has changed and adapted to the quick and easy ways feedback can be collected via social media. Of course fans don't have the last say when it comes to decision making but general opinion does influence the production of movies quite a bit. Many fan favorites in movie series survive their planned deaths because of their popularity (Jesse Pinkmann for example). Other popular characters get their spinoff based on popularity. A franchise as eager to communicate with its fanbase as Star Wars, which even has dedicated celebrations and expos, does not evolve in a vacuum. Fans thought the look of the PT was badly received for looking too artificial, clean and CGI heavy? Hey look guys, we have real creatures now and real sets? Did we mention that they are real an not CGI? Fans thought TFA was a rehash? Well TLJ is different! Very different! Oh did we mention it is different?

    Do you really think that companies have no hidden intention when they hold "contests" like: Battle of the characters, which hero do you like most? Win awesome prices for voting your favorite villain!... ;)
     
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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Jar Jar was a fairly inconsequential character and it was easy for Lucas to do a bit of fan service about something so minor. I’m sure he was quite deaf to other kind of criticism, as he should have been, because he really believed in what he was doing.

    As far as JJ, I think he will do his own thing too. He has learnt, he has had feedback, but ultimately he will go where the story tells him to go in his own mind and that’s just as it should be. Besides, no matter what he does, he will always disappoint someone.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 4, 2018 ---
    I don’t doubt you’re right, but cgi, sets, minor characters can be easily “sold” according to fan polls, but stories? Stories have a general theme, secondary themes, character arcs, plot, subplots, development, pace, style... you need to be a fan to write a SW story, I think, but, although the opinion of other fans may influence you prior to the creative process, once you have started the wrriting and prep process in your head it’s just your story, and it would be impossible to accommodate any other person’s story and expectations about all those elements above but your own. You may have advice about problems, holes, inconsistencies, but for that JJ or RJ have a team to work with, and improve, and edit. They don’t need fans for that. To the fans you tell the robots are cool and the story is super original and we have cool characters like Pharma. IMO these stories we have seen in the ST are not a compendium of callous add ons to please fans, but a labour of intellect and care.
     
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    He pointed out what I had already stated. Small changes happen, but it's rare that major story changes are made that late into the process (especially on a blockbuster).
    I have changed my mind about a great many things on this forum. If you wish to tell me your opinion again, please feel free. I've already stated mine I've yet to see a compelling argument that RJ/Lucasfilm are changing major story elements due to internet chatter.
     
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  7. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    Wow, I could not agree with you more. Great Post!
    I keep seeing people In this thread say that RJ should have went in and completely change HIS vision for HIS film. In the long run I don't think even this would please the fans either. It would just be seen as more filming complications and many would start complaining about how LFL is playing it safe, just as they did with TFA. While many may not agree, everything in TLJ is there for a reason. The reason Holdo withheld information from Poe is simple, Johnson need Poe to have his character arc. Johnson killed Snoke because he is not THE villain, Kylo is. Rey's parents are nobodies because it is Logical. Daisy Ridley, JJ, And to a degree RJ were telling us this all along. While Finn's arc on Canto Night wasn't that interesting, it served a purpose. The only problem with TLJ is the false expectations put behind it. Fans were mad that TFA was too much of the same, and angered that TLJ was too different. It baffles me that this is our reality. There will be THAT person who says though, "TLJ changed nothing and was just a rehash"... Well of course, it's star wars. There's always going to be much of the same, but not a carbon copy. I'm going to link a video that I quite enjoyed watching on YouTube which shares many of my same points. Good day!

     
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  8. BobRoss

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    I see you points but I don't quite agree with them. Let me give you an example. When I was a student at the university the GADS (game art and design) course I majored in frequently had industry roundtables. One time I had a pretty good conversation with the lead game designer of the RPG "Gothic" and "Gothic II", one of my favourite games when I was a teenager. I asked him why Gothic 3 was so different and why they didn't make it more similar to its predecessors. He had to say this: In older games we never used questmarkers. If you wanted to know your objective you had to talk to NPCs who would give you directions like "I saw the orc nearby the old ruins" or "talk to a dude who looks like this, he can sell you the item you need". However when "Gothic 3" came along players were mostly accustomed to questmarkers. The game devs research showed that people would much rather google important locations instead of interacting with NPCs like they were supposed to. So the fans directly influenced the fundamental core elements of the game.

    This was almost 10 years ago and the industry has become much more reliant on user feedback resulting in public beta testing, early access titles, polls, etc... Now with movies this is a little different but again, writing movies doesn't happen in a vacuum. Characters in scripts are replaced by more popular characters, flaws of movies are addressed in subsequent installments of a franchise, gender and ethnicity of certain characters are adapted to address public opinions concerning diversity issues. There's a reason why test screenings exist. Their influence on movies is well documented. Take Bladerunner for example. Deckard being a replicant wasn't well received with American audiences so scenes indicating that he was indeed a replicant were cut. I'm pretty sure George Lucas didn't drop Jar Jar Binks because he suddenly thought Jar Jar was a bad character but because he knew fans didn't really want to see more of the Gungan we love to hate and adapted his screenplay accordingly. I'm sure Rian didn't go on a message board an said: well this guy wants Snoke to be a plot device, let's do this. But he knew what people suspected Snoke to be like and tried to do something unexpected based on this knowledge.
     
    #48 BobRoss, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2018
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  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Everything you say here seems perfectly reasonable and I accept it. I think the reactions of fans to the ST are indeed important to the creators and they work with this feedback to a certain extent, but I think it is a stretch to suppose that JJ will make a story trying to accommodate the most popular fan theories, whatever these are, because from where I’m standing, there are a lot, and they contradict each other quite a bit... so wouldn’t it be more logical to think that JJ will do the story he thinks it’s right and will believe in it so much he will feel capable to win over most fans with it? That’s what a good writer and director would do, and he’s not too shabby in either department.

    Snoke wasn’t killed on a whim or to do something against fan expectations. He was killed to develop Kylo’s character and to offer Rey another challenge by having to refuse Kylo’s plans and expectations for her. Snoke’s death was part of the story and character evolution and it felt right. Rey’s parentage wasn’t an attack on fan expectation either. It served both a plot and theme purpose. These decisions came out of the storytelling process, not fan chatter. There was a creative impulse in these decisions.

    I understand what you’re saying, there is a lot in franchises and TV series that looks very much like painting by numbers, but I still believe that SW has still that belief in good old fashion storytelling, that storytelling of the first film in 77 and for that sort of thing writers need to get away from the fans and write.
     
    #49 Kylocity, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  10. BobRoss

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    I absolutely agree with what you are saying which means that we had an issue as far as communicating our opinions is concerned while actually being on the same page. We just had a different definition of "Rian was influenced by fans". You defined it as "fans caused RJ to write X" while I defined it as "fans caused RJ not to write X".
     
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  11. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I did write a response to this but then held my finger on "backspace" and decided to just leave this claim out there to speak for itself.
    Yeah I wrestled with some of these decisions after seeing the film.
    Upon further viewing and reflection I came to the conclusion that this is exactly why professional storytellers are hired and unlikely to pander to the whims of fans! ;)
    I find myself wanting to know more about Snoke too but have concerns about whether it was possible or desirable to do it in TLJ via exposition or flashback.
    If audiences want to know more about Snoke other than what suited the filmmaker's story they can...
    Snoke Backstory.png
    Exactly. This kind of subversion is completely in line with some classic SW tropes like The Eccentric Mentor/Trickster Mentor who's a Hermit Guru and gives wannabe apprentices Secret Tests of Character.

    Eccentric Mentor.gif

    Eccentric Mentor2.gif
    Yeah, imagine the danger of wading into a quagmire of second guessing while under the most pressure a director could probably be under!
    Maybe he wrote a story, saw that some bloated fan expectations and head canon could lend toward their disappointment in the story, and gave them a hint (YSTS pic) that they were heading down a foolish self-defeating path?
     
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  12. BobRoss

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    That's possible but the way I see it a movie stands on its own two feet an shouldn't rely on Twitter posts to prepare people for what they are about to see. I'm under the impression that the negative reactions to Snoke's death are often linked with the disappointment of not knowing who that guy was when he died. This means that people felt cheated ("....now we'll never know who he was..."). It is not the death of Snoke that bugs them it's the fact that we barely knew that guy when he died.

    Rian once said "It would have stopped any of these scenes dead cold if he had stopped and given a 30-second speech about how he’s Darth Plagueis…" This is where I fundamentally disagree with him. Pacing isn't exactly well done in TLJ and 30 secs of dialogue could have avoided the whole Snoke controversy. He must have known that SW fans are used to a galaxy where robot sidekick C3-P0 is (technically) the son of the main villain Darth Vader. Sure you can break with these conventions but you do it step by step or else you risk estranging audiences.
     
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  13. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi General

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    I really don't care about Snoke's backstory. He was never really one of the central characters to me. TLJ was already pretty long... trying to appease some fans would ultimately be confusing to the the general audience. One of the most common mistakes made in fantasy films are when characters start monologuing about some back story that's not even relevant to the main plot. To me The Last Jedi is best written Star Wars film we've seen so far and that's likely why the general audience liked the film so much.
     
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  14. Kaniisra

    Kaniisra Rebelscum

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    Interesting idea. Probably didn't happen, given there are dozens of people that work for Lucasfilm.
     
  15. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I see why some see Snoke as a red herring - I figured he'd be killed or usurped at some stage although I didn't see it coming until it was cued.
    I had expected to find out something personal about the animosity between him and Luke.

    I guess the idea of taking Luke out of the equation wasn't so much personal as incidental.
    Snoke wanted to secure his power and control the opposition by leading it (Ben).

    TFA gave me the impression Snoke was pretty scared of Luke and would have been happy to leave him alone to die on his island.
    Poking the hornets nest just risks the opportunity for Luke to seek out one of those troublesome honorable deaths these Jedi are prone to do!
    Sometimes it's tricky to tell deliberate subverting of expectations from a narrative that just differs from fans false expectations.

    I'm not too keen on the monologue idea myself but I think you're right in that there were plenty of opportunities to give a nod to a fan theory or drop hints that left some open to interpretation.

    That they didn't may well mean something. Maybe it didn't fit, maybe it would distract from the real villain, maybe there's something cooking in the works for 9, or maybe it's just a case of not robbing a future writer from a storytelling opportunity.
     
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  16. Darth Basin The Greatest

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    Just out of intrest. What can mske u hate a SW movie if anything?
     
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  17. ScumAndVillainy

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    A new method to intentionally piss off the fans by making sure they don't get any type of satisfying movie at all?

    If you tailor your movie either for or against fans, you're a blooming freaking idiot. Try making a satisfying story next time and maybe people won't abandon it in droves post-release. Rainy managed to cause roughly a billion dollars in brand damage to the IP. Thankfully, SW is one of the few IP's that can sustain that type of hit and potentially bounce back.

    But a couple more of those and you won't have to worry about Star Wars.
     
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  18. AfraidFool

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    The only expectation I had that was 'subverted' is that I thought we were going to get a focused starwarseque film.
     
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  19. The Last Jorgny

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    Lots of things could have made me hate it. If the characters had not been interesting, the story was predictable, or the editing was bad I wouldn't be very happy. Or if the acting or writing was bad for that matter (a lot of people thought those things were bad in TLJ and I will not say they are wrong I just don't agree).
    For me personally TLJ delivered pretty good on all those things, and I was entertained and surprised through the whole thing. But I am not saying that anyone is wrong for disliking it or giving criticisms of the things they disliked, I have criticisms too. But the good outwheighed the bad by a good margin.
     
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  20. Dr Jerrone

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    I'm not sure if you're being disingenuous or if you honestly don't know what you're talking about. R1 didn't have expensive reshoots and TLJ didn't under perform. Solo did require expensive and extensive reshoots and if it doesn't perform well then it will be a financial detriment. R1 and TLJ are both massive successes financially and to say otherwise is foolish.

    As far as Iger is concerned, he has planned retirement a couple of times and delayed it, with the purchase of Fox there's basically no way he retires until both companies are fully integrated. I do think that KK might benefit from a promotion to a higher position where she doesn't have only LFL under her and put someone who is more a SW fan than producer in her spot.
     
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