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SPECULATION Thoughts on the flashback and plot

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Caligula37ad, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. Caligula37ad

    Caligula37ad Rebelscum

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    Hello, I'm new to this site and thought this would be as good a place as any to share a theory on those rumored flashbacks scenes, so here it goes. There seems to be a general agreement that the scene from the trailer with r2d2 and the individual touching him with the mechanical hand is Luke. I am running with the idea that this is true, and shortly after discovering his ruined jedi academy. I believe that the sparks you see are from funeral pyres burning his young padawans, or perhaps the aftermath of a battle. The overall tone seems to be one of sadness, with the hand reaching out and head slowly lowering. What leads to this sorrow, the destruction of his academy, or something more? Who destroyed it? How was it destroyed?

    My theory goes like this. Kylo and Rey are Solo children, Kylo the eldest, Rey very young. Both being trained with Luke at his academy. Kylo somehow is directly or indirectly responsible for the destruction of the academy, having been either tricked or tempted by whichever force it is that destroys the academy (Sith, Pirates, Ewoks. Probably Sith). Kylo believes everyone is killed at the academy including his young sister and that it is all his fault, completing his fall to the darkside, setting him up as the main villain, having him join whoever attacked the academy, and giving him some backstory as to why he is so evil like. In actuality, Luke has somehow managed to save Rey. Luke see's Reys future and determines that she will always be hunted or killed because of her lineage to him and the force, and decides to hide her away on Jakku. Luke tells Han/Leia that everyone was killed at the academy, rather than reveal the betrayal of their own son for causing the destruction. This fractures the Han/Leia/Luke relationship thinking that their children are dead. and Luke full of guilt leaves them both, telling them that if they ever need to find him to look for his lightsabre, and goes into Yoda like exile. Meanwhile, Kylo thinks his sister is dead and blames Luke for her death, and his parents for putting him in the academy. He has only vague memories of his time before the academy, and Rey really has none. All of this is revealed to both Rey and Han Solo in the flashback sequence, which is why both are so affected from the vision they see together as other rumors have stated. Han discovers his children live and Lukes sacrifice, Rey learns her true lineage.

    Anyhow, I don't think it's too farfetched and would seem to fit nicely with other rumors out there. Kylos strange nostalgic scene in the Falcon, Rey and Solo so affected by the vision, Kylos hatred for Solo, the strange kinship Rey and Solo seem to have, giving her his blaster, etc. I'm willing to bet Rey has one of those "somehow I've always known" moments with Solo a lot throughout the movie.
     
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  2. TIDMADT

    TIDMADT Jedi Biker

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    First... welcome to the cantina

    I agree that it is Luke in the trailer... and I think the tragedy that Luke experiences will be more than the loss of the academy, I think he will (or at least believe he will) lose his wife and child

    Don't think Kylo and Rey are Solos... potentially Skywalkers... and THOSE may be the children he feared lost
     
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  3. Kryptic Mind

    Kryptic Mind Rebel Official

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    Welcome brah!

    Somehow i get the feeling Rey's exile is self imposed though. What is she doing with the Falcon ? Did she steal it from daddy ? Did she escape the attack in it ? Why is she so reluctant to take the saber (her destiny) ?
     
    #3 Kryptic Mind, Jun 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
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  4. DarthWalker

    DarthWalker Force Sensitive

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    If we HAVE to have a flashback, I hope to God it's done better than the "dreams" that Anakin had in the Prequels. That was lame and looked very soap opera-ish.
     
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  5. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    I considered this once...for a second. NOW, it may make more sense.....and is VERY plausible.

    Oh man....so true. :)
     
  6. The_Coon

    The_Coon Rebelscum

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    I don't care what makingstarwars says Rey is a solo that is pretty much one of the only confirmed facts we have
     
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  7. ChrisI

    ChrisI Force Sensitive

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    Let me join in on the welcoming you to The Cantina! I think it is Luke in the "flashback" with R2 and it's probably after he has lost either is Academy and/or his family.
     
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  8. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    I don't disagree, but how is it confirmed other than the interview where Daisy Ridley make reference to be a "Solitary" character, giggle, giggle, awkward and a reference to a glare from Kathleen Kennedy?
     
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  9. Unseen

    Unseen Rebel Official

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    I really think Rey is Luke's daughter. Mystery box: the movie appears to be about returning Luke his saber, but it's actually about returning his daughter.

    Han dies heroically in the process, which is less depressing and more believable than him dying on a dangerous mission with his thought dead daughter.

    However, I think kylos identity will be a mystery and last night I had a thought that could make this work:

    There are several children missing or thought dead.

    Han and Leia had twins- boy and girl.

    Luke and wife had a son and a young daughter.

    The mystery Rey will unravel over the trilogy is ....is kylo her brother? Cousin ? Just some lunatic??

    And...who was her mom? Etc.

    Who really died at the academy? Who betrayed the others? Are there other survivors? Etc

    It's not all going to be revealed in 7. There has to be a way to make kylo a mystery for a while...
     
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  10. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Welcome! Good theories! I would totally be Okay if this is how it all goes down. Luke the failure, in exile. Much like Obiwan the failure, in exile. Sounds good to me. Even the bit about Luke hiding the truth from Han and Leia. Very Obiwanesque.
     
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  11. John Crichton

    John Crichton Rebel Official

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    @Caligula37ad Welcome to the Cantina! I find your outline to be very plausible, and with some slight tweaking it might be what we actually find to be in the film. I particularly like the aspect of Han and Rey not finding out the truth until the vision is made -- quite jarring emotionally.

    Similar tidbits of speculation have been floating around, particularly the academy destruction, but this is the first time I'm reading it connected all together in a nice fashion like this. I like that it's pretty dark without being too dark.
     
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  12. WedgeSalad

    WedgeSalad Rebel General

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    Nice speculation @Caligula37ad! I too think this sounds pretty plausible. One thing sticks out for me though (Disclaimer: this is a question based on lots of speculation and unknowns. I don't necessarily believe them one way or another, just trying to spark debate)

    If Kylo hates the Skywalkers so much, how do we reconcile his rumored Vader obsession (e.g. the rumor that Kylo is the cyborg holding Vader's melty helmet as he gazes lovingly at it)? Is he not aware that Vader was a Skywalker?
     
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  13. John Crichton

    John Crichton Rebel Official

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    Interesting line of thought. I'm so used it all that skipped my mind. I suppose it goes back to the debate about whether anyone other than the Big Three knew about the Vader-Skywalker connection or not, or that Leia was a part of that. Many possibilities.

    Edit -- I've got no clue what's with all the quoted text that's in a link. My text was in a link too and I swear I did nothing to mess it up! Symptoms of quoting a tag maybe.
     
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  14. WedgeSalad

    WedgeSalad Rebel General

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    Yeah, I thought that link thing was weird too.

    But back on topic :) The Big Three certainly know, but it's probably not in their best interest to let that become common knowledge. So Kylo could conceivably fetishize Vader because, from his point of view ;), Vader was the only one who stood up to the "evil" Skywalkers.
     
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  15. Kryptic Mind

    Kryptic Mind Rebel Official

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    I think the supposed leaked line "Immune to the Light" is very telling. Snoke and Kylo is probably very well aware of Vaders betrayal/redemption. "In order to succeed with our goals we must become immune to the light". Maybe we will get a new interesting perspective on the force in this movie. As Jedis talk in terms of falling to the darkside , Kylo and Snoke probably talk about falling to the light. A horrendous thing in their eyes , the ultimate failure. Vaders son lured him , he was seduced to the light side of the force!!
    The helmet serves as a reminder and Kylo is the new and improved Vader 2.0

    Also as some has pointed out , the very fact that they have been able to find Vaders remains on the forest moon of Endor is interesting. How is that ? That information has probably come from Kylo Ren cause at one point in his early life he has been close to Luke , Leia or Han or all three. Someone must have told him about what went down when the Empire crumbled.
     
    #15 Kryptic Mind, Jun 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2015
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  16. Caligula37ad

    Caligula37ad Rebelscum

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    I've been thinking about the cyborg is Kylo rumor and I just don't see how this is possible, unless it's a scene at the very end of the movie after the final battle, and Kylo is somehow so injured that he becomes the cyborg depicted. I think this solely because of the Annie Liebovitz pictures that were run recently, clearly showing Kylo's face, completely human, no augmentation.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2015, Original Post Date: Jul 1, 2015 ---
    I like the idea of her being reluctant to take the sabre. Perhaps when she possesses/touches it, it releases repressed memories of the original attack at the academy? She does not want it as it reminds her of all that death. Maybe she does not want to go down the jedi path because of those bad memories, but being a Skywalker/Solo she gets 'those feelings' attached to the Sabre? Heck if my original speculation turns out to be true, she may actually blame jedi's for her entire solitary existence, and her path to becoming a jedi lies in forgiving Luke for that day.

    As for the Falcon (god I love that ship), that plot point seems really open to speculation. She could have stole it long ago, she could have stole it very recently on the planet as she flees with Finn, somehow being drawn to that ship because it's somehow familiar to her. Luke may have stole it originally (he's not such a bad pilot himself) and left it with her knowing that one day she'd need it?
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2015 ---
    Thanks! I originally thought that Luke may not deceive his friends in this way, but then started drawing the parallels between Lukes life (hidden from his father to both protect him and give hope for the future) The 'protect him' arc helps advance the plot along, and the 'hope for the future' makes the actual act of deceiving the parents for the greater good of the galaxy very forgivable, very jedi.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 1, 2015 ---
    Not sure that I've seen it 100% confirmed, but in my mind I'll admit that I believe them to be Solo's rather than Skywalkers as 'attachment is forbidden', the jedi love all but never bare children, look what happened last time...

    Also, I 100% believe MSW has only minor plot points correct. Don't put it past Abrams to purposely 'leak' a bunch of either fake or abandoned concept art and the like. He probably released minor stuff that was true knowing people would analyze this movie more than any ever made for his leakers to gain credibility, and then a bunch of red herrings through the same leakers.
     
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  17. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Like this idea on immune to the light. That is a neat way of looking at that phrase.

    Don't think Rey is in self exile. She is not going to be any older 20 in the movie. Luke is rumored to be in exile for 10-15 years. That would put Rey in the 5-10 year old range. Definitely not old enough to go into self exile or steal the Falcon or escape the attack on the academy. I don't think we are going to have Luke going into self exile and then Rey years later going into self exile as well. I think that would be a little convoluted. If they were together at some point it would make sense they went into hiding at the same time.
     
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  18. Wayne

    Wayne Rebel Official

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    All this makes sense, but it is solely speculation isn't it? Or is there confirmation of Luke having had and lost a Jedi academy?

    Personally, I still don't expect Luke to have children. I think that raises too many questions and imposes a need for a LOT of exosition (who was his partner, where did they meet, why her, where is she now, etc).

    As the scene allegedly showing Luke touching R2 is believed to be on Jakku, it makes sense (and is simpler) if this ties in with the big post-RotJ battle there. Otherwise, we have to ask the question, "why did Luke choose a war-torn planet for his academy?" Anyone any thoughts on this? Shortly after Endor there was a battle on/over Jakku and a while after that Luke chose that planet to establish his new Jedi academy? Am I missing something, because that..I have problems with, tbh.

    More likely that Luke was there during or shortly after the battle and that the reason for the battle ties into why he looks so glum.

    I've previously speculated that Jakku may have been home to a shipyard, hence the Rebel attack on it. But what if Jakku was the site of an Inquisitor training base or even the lair of Palpatine's cyborg Vader-replacements (mentioned in the comics)? What if Luke discovered that the Rebel forces were attacking Jakku after they learned of Palpatine's academy there, but that Luke arrived too late to intervene and prevent a Rebel massacre of the few remaining 'trained' Force Sensitives in the galaxy. For Luke, who knew Dark Siders could be turned, this was an opportunity to enlighten (see what I did there?) Palpatine's secret Forces (and what I did there?), but perhaps he just arrived too late to stop the base being destroyed? Maybe Kylo was in there and Luke helped him escape, only to then lose him among the stars?

    That would be a nice parallel: Luke rescues Kylo from a Rebel bombing run, Rey later rescues Finn. Two stories of rescuing a foe, one that turns soar, one that leads to the creation of a hero.

    I know I'll probably be proved wrong (and I'll be fine with that) but I don't buy Luke having kids or having established and lost a Jedi academy..yet. There are still just too many other possibilities. And the new canon is creating too many new elements (like the Inquisitors and Palpatine's cyborg rogues) for me to accept speculation that steers so close to the now-abandoned old EU.

    Fun speculating, though. MTFBWY....
     
    #18 Wayne, Jul 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
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  19. Snazel

    Snazel Force Sensitive

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    You know that ridiculous scene where out of an entire moon and a huge chase by a massive creature, Kirk just happens to stumble into the same tiny cave that Spock was in?

    And then Spock said, "hey dude, I need to mind meld so I can explain this ridiculous story".

    And Kirk was like, "I don't even really know you and I just nearly died, but sure go ahead buttstomp my brain. Sure, no problem bro."

    And then Spock showed some nerd babble sequence that explained in 60 seconds what actually took years to transpire and provided a thin excuse for why suddenly they were rebooting the franchise and that Star Trek was in fact activating the "it's a time distortion" Deus Ex Machina for the like the umpteenth time?

    Yeah, like that, only Star Wars. :)

    Replace, "hey how did this crazy time rift happen, please tell me by alien telepathy minutes after meeting you in a random icy cave" with "hey Maz tell me more about this Macguffin that everyone in the film is chasing, please tell me by having a seance in a bar we just had a massive fight in". The Macguffin is Luke's light saber.

    That was glib, but you get the idea.

    The first Act of the film is a massive chase scene, almost from start to finish, the flashback just lets you breathe while utterly pedantic fill in the blank exposition is inserted to justify the first Act.

    If it's a really good Macguffin film, each person who gets the Macguffin becomes the general "view point" of the film. And indeed the very best Macguffin films are character pieces, as each character has different motivations and rewards for obtaining the Macguffin and act differently when they have it.

    I wager the saber will mean the key to being able to find Luke. That Maz can't find Luke with it, but does see its history, but fails to see it all. She takes it to Leia. Leia suddenly knows Luke is in fact alive and okay when she gets it and sets Han off in motion who lets Finn carry it. Finn's perspective changes as he's seeking friendship and allies after having defected. Then it comes to Rey, who has a whole other destiny with the weapon, as the film's ending will allude to.

    All speculation above of course.
     
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  20. John Crichton

    John Crichton Rebel Official

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    On that note, there was some speculation that Luke may have kept or at some point retrieved the helmet to use in his academy/personal quarters as a reminder of what can happen if he or any of his padawans strayed from their path. This is of course taking the graverobber concept art into consideration, but assuming that the cyborg element was merely a early-process idea and not the final.

    I like the concept of him keeping it to remind him, and as the speculation went, it subsequently being taken from the academy by Ren, who was a pupil. Either he took it during the destruction, or returned later to retrieve it knowing where he might find it.

    More likely than not that scenario won't play out. But I thought it was a fairly logical if easy way out of the "found helmet" issue.
     
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