THREAD FOR THOSE WHO FEEL MIXED ABOUT THE MOVIE

I mean, I definitely have mixed feelings about the movie, but in general I liked it. Can I post here too?

In all seriousness, the film had some really rough moments, particularly a lot of the battle scenes. The scope of them just felt terribly small to me.

A lot of the character driven stuff was fantastic, though.

 

I did not sough apparent collision course with Clones , can you explain your point of view please?

 

I definitely have mixed feelings about TLJ, more so than any other Star Wars movie.

I know my opinion is unpopular but I was very disappointed in TFA, to the point where I found myself not even caring about what happens to the characters. TLJ engaged me better in this respect and I felt like I was actually interested in what would happen. But I still don't feel like it hit the amazing level of character development that SW is known for. I don't really agree with the movie's depictions of Luke and Yoda, and Ben's position/motivation is almost impossible to track. Overall it felt a bit melodramatic with

Spoiler

Luke seemingly surviving multiple deaths only to die for no apparent reason

.

 

This is the most terrific terrible film ever IMO.
I LOVED everything about the film, except ....
The destruction of Luke Skywalker.

I'm not referring to the characters death/passing. I'm referring to RJs complete ruination of the character. I also didn't like the "Luke must kill Ben" theme. That seems to contradict Luke's story in TFA and the Solo's story in Bloodline. They should have listened to MH on this one.

At this point, TLJ is having the same effect that Independence Day 2: Regurgitation had on me. The one film tainted the whole thing. I desperately hope that Abrams is able to salvage things in IX

 

An analogy for this is when you are a fan of a band and they release a new album that all the critics rave about.

You listen and yet it does not grab you the first time as it's not what you were expecting but you hope that after repeated listens it will. I think that is where a lot of people are at the moment, I still need a few more listens.

Usually the best albums take a while to grow on you, especially if they challenge the listener a take them out of their comfort zone. To just repeat the same old songs can get a bit stale after a while.

I predict a retrospective appreciation amongst many fans after the dust as settled and we've moved on to other films.

 

I think most of this conflict emerges from TLJ being a good movie but a terrible sequel and only a mildly interesting setup for IX. TLJ should have been the finale and not the second part in a trilogy. It is too disconnected from TFA and solves almost all the potential conflict that we expected to see in IX. Kylo vs Rey again?? Instead of making the wonderful throne room sequence in TLJ the finale of the trilogy we'll see Kylo get his a** kicked for the third time in IX. God so much wasted potential.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2018 ---

I admire your optimism but I don't think so. Creating classics is usually up to the audience and not the critics and things don't look good given how many new SW movie sflood the market and how badly the overall reception was already weeks after the premiere. The prequel trilogy never recovered from the intense dislike of the fanbase. I think it will be similar with TLJ.

 

I saw it and I liked it. I didn't love it as much as I expected I would. But I liked it enough to expect I would love it a whole lot more upon subsequent viewings.
Funnily enough what I minded the most after that first viewing was the humour in it. The milking of a masculine looking space cow that looked like it's enjoying the milking a tad too much was a bit over the top for me. At times it seemed like the movie is making fun of it self, and not in a good way. The 'still holding for general Hugs' and 'jakku? That is pretty much nowhere' jokes were gold but the rest didn't sit with me too well. The Canto Bight scenes page turners they were not, but I didn't mind it that much. I thought they could do better with BDT and Rose and Finn's story. Unless BDT will be back in 9 his story is kind of pointless. And I cared more for Rose's sister that I saw only for 2 min on screen than I cared for Rose. I disliked that Finn had no charachter development at all: his story in TLJ is basically a rehash of his story in TFA. I did like Rose's line about how we don't win by fighting what we hate but by saving what we love and it is the thing I took out the theatre with me that first viewing.

The following viewings had a surprising effect. I started to not mind at all what I originally thought were cringy jokes, but some new things started to bug me. Like the way Adam Driver's acting was a bit too accentuated at times. I got a distinct impression that he disliked what they did with his charachter in this episode and it showed in his performance. Also, I realized that, if I don't take the movie too seriously or think about it in a too profound manner, I love it. I thought that was a very sad thing but I firmly decided not to judge it now before we get the conclusion of the story in episode 9.

With enough candy and properly timed pee breaks the movie is very engaging.

 

Things that didn't work for me in TLJ

1) Hux being a comic relief and a punching bag for Kylo Ren.

2) Leia Poppins moment.

3) Every high rank in Resistance criticizing Poe Dameron as hot head or trigger happy fly boy. If not for this trigger happy fly boy, the entire Resistance would have been completely eradicated after the evacuation of D'Quar. This trigger happy fly along with Crimson and Cobalt squadrons enabled the Resistance to survive the evacuation of D'Quar. If there is a war, peace cannot be achieved without sacrifice and blaming Poe Dameron for losing the entire Cobalt and Crimson squadron is a logical fallacy in my opinion.

4) Luke tossing the light sabre over his shoulder.

5) Luke trying to kill his nephew in his sleep. Why Luke isn't man enough to confront his nephew ???

6) Lack of elaborate flashback scenes between Luke and Ben Solo. If hey had a more detailed flash back scene involving a light sabre confrontation between Luke and Ben Solo it would have added more emotional weight to TLJ. Even more scenes of Luke training Rey on Aach-to would have been great. Instead we get to watch irrelevant Canto-Bight scenes close to 30 minute mark.

7) The interaction between Luke and Rey on Aach-to had some comic moments which felt authentic, otherwise other comic scenes were just force choked on audience, sometimes I felt they were trying to emulate MCU type of comic relief which didn't work for a Star Wars film.

8) Elevation of Kylo Ren's story arc went from strength to strength, until Crait we get to see same old angry Kylo Ren throwing temper tantrums and punching Hux.

9) The entire Canto-Bight casino scenes and sub-plot involving Finn, Rose, DJ and BB-8 were totally unnecessary, even though Canto-Bight scenes showed that there is an uprising of a new generation of force sensitive individuals in the galaxy it doesn't contribute to TLJ's narration.

10) Resistance speeders making a run against FO walkers, squadron of TIE fighters and battering ram cannon is the most irrelevant one. This scene doesn't serve any function to the film except it's aesthetically appealing and well shot. Resistance speeders were squatted like flies and the few surviving ones were made to retreat. Oh, I get it now this whole speeder chase is to show that Rose has a crush on Finn and Finn willing to sacrifice himself for Resistance.

11) Mutiny between Poe and Haldo was unnecessary. This mutiny between Poe and Haldo stems from the fact that Poe being a trigger happy fly boy, so Haldo doesn't trust Poe Dameron. As I have pointed out above in point no-3, if Leia or any other Resistance high rank hadn't questioned Poe Dameron's decision to take out the dreadnought this whole mutiny stuff would have never happened.
12) No light sabre confrontation in TLJ. This is a STAR WARS saga film without a light sabre confrontation duh what ???

13) Portraying Luke Skywalker as the creator of Kylo Ren is unfathomable.

IMHO TLJ is too long they should have cut the flab, certain Canto Bight scenes like riding on fathiers should have never left the editing room. They tried to cram too much in this film which worked against it. Majority of the audience divide stems from portrayal of Luke Skywalker.

 

I also think this is a major divide point, if not the greatest. Personally, I think that's a pivotal plot point and one that TLJ didn't do well enough. I mean, why was Luke in the island? Why in that island in particular? If to die, he could have decided to die in many, many other places. Why the trouble? Why there?

This was the major question TLJ had to answer. I watched the movie three times already, and in my opinion it failed to give a proper answer to this question. In the process this lack of satisfactory explanation managed to alienate many Luke fans, including Mark Hamill himself.

Still, I like the movie, and I feel it has some amazing moments, others not so great, but I consider it to be my 4th favorite SW movie. However, I think that Luke's motives and portrayal should have been done much better.

Luke could still believe the Jedi had to end, but that didn't mean he had to give up and want to die. He could have gone to the island to seek answers (it was the first jedi temple after all) which hopefuly would help him and others. He said, and believed, the force is balance, that is good and evil. So, why not work it out, pass it to Rey to carry the torch and everybody would be happy. Luke would still be the Luke many recognize and the saga would move foward with Rey. Just my 2 cents.

 

You are right. TLJ was suppose to answer the questions from TFA but, in a certain way TLJ threw away everything what TFA had setup or what JJ had setup in TFA. I don't know whether there is a clear and overall direction to this ST at LF.

So far from TFA, TLJ and other canon materials after Ben Solo had gone dark, Luke blamed himself and went on a self imposed exile to Ahch-To looking for the first Jedi temple but, why was Luke searching for the first Jedi temple ? and What did he intend to find there ? are the two unanswered questions so far.

 

Exactly. Why was Luke searching for the first Jedi Temple? What did he want to accomplish by going there? I don't think TLJ answered these questions.

Bombs falling, Leia surviving the vacuum of space, Snoke dying without backstory, even Canto Bight, I'm ok with all of that, and can come up with explanations and even appreciate those scenes with no problem. I even like the humour. But, Luke being in Ahch-To, why? Not knowing why is he there bothers me because it's such a key plot point, and TFA's major cliffhanger. In that sense I can't feel completely satisfied until I have a good answer to these questions. So, while not neutral about the film, I cannot say I love it either. So, you can say I feel mixed to an extent.

You know, I'm starting to question that as well. When TFA released, I was ecstatic. I even praised Disney and said wonders about them to some of my friends, of how we were in such good hands with LF and Disney's partnership. And, mind you, I don't think TFA is an amazing film, I think it's a good star wars movie but one that lacks in originality.

However, something didn't go quite right in TLJ's direction in terms of continuity from TFA, that seems clear. Lucas didn't direct, and didn't even write the entire OT by himself, he had others direct for him and the help of other writers. But at least he was there guiding the story going forward, making sure the continuity was there. Somehow I don't feel the same is happening in the ST.

I think LF recognized this lack of cohesion by hiring RJ to oversee the creation of an entire trilogy. Even if RJ doesn't direct and write every film (and he even admits that to be quite possible, he simply doesn't know yet), at least there will be someone creating the complete story arc, even if just in broad strokes. In this trilogy, I think we didn't get that cohesion, therefore some of the problems many struggle with (e.g. lack of Knights of Ren, any Snoke backstory, explanation why Luke was on Ahch-To, the whole "map-to-Luke" thing). This was all JJ's and Kasdan's stuff. RJ picked up from their script, and created something by himself, mostly alone with the occasional feedback, I feel.

I'm not saying TLJ is a bad film, quite far from it, I like it very much, and think RJ was bold and we got a beautiful Star Wars movie. That said, I can't help feelling TLJ could have been much better had RJ been on board of writing 7 with JJ and Kasdan, or JJ (or Kasdan) had been involved in 8. Or, at least someone should have been on top of everyone guiding the whole thing. Somehow I don't think LF's story group is doing that part. I think they are like consultants, but not that active in the story making process. I could be wrong though.

JJ being back for 9 makes perfect sense to me though, as an attempt to tie all the loose knots and provide a sense of closure by the same team that started this trilogy.

 

While TLJ is IMHO a very well acted, written and directed film, it makes one especially critical error: it made me stop speculating and dreaming about Episode 9. I'm not looking forward to more Luke (aside from a force ghost that we damn well better get) because he's dead. I'm not looking forward to Rey's backstory anymore because she's "nobody". I'm not wondering about Snoke's rise to power and ultimate goals because Snoke is dead. I'm not looking forward to seeing Leia's story arc conclusion (obviously not anyone's fault here) because whatever they end up doing will be a sad fix for Fisher's untimely passing. I'm no longer engaged in Finn and Phasma's story arc because Phasma was dispatched so easily and Finn did nothing to develop as a character. I'm not looking forward to seeing Poe lead the resistance because TLJ seemed to go out of its way to make him a jerk....

Basically, I just want to see Kylo rule as the new Emperor and he can't really do much with that because he has to be defeated in the span of a single film.

It's really weird...I respect the craftsmanship of TLJ and I think it stands up to scrutiny as a single film, but as a middle part of a trilogy it kinda ruins everything.

Now, JJ could retro-actively make TLJ a better film by knocking 9 out of the park, but if Abrams has one glaring weakness it's that he is terrible at resolving story lines. He can set them up like a master, but doesn't seem to have any idea how to tie up loose ends.

Anyway, this thread is exactly how I feel: mixed.

 

Luke was barely even a character without his father so his arc in TLJ just confirmed that....that he is nothing without vader

 

I posted in here because I’m going to give TLJ another shot on Bluray in 2 weeks, as I have listened to both sides since December. I saw it once and it didn’t sit well with me and purposely did not see it again so I could give myself time and perspective. I’m anxious to see it again as I really don’t know how I will react as I’m going in with an open mind (something I wouldn’t have done on a 2nd viewing in December). For the record I loved TFA, so I will be at a crossroads with this Trilogy if TLJ doesn’t work for me.

 

I was very Meh about this movie. I have wrote and deleted this 3 times, the first was a novella and second was just to random. It is the Star Trek 5 of Star Wars. It was not the best but not the worst. I will watch it again and also see the next one.

 

I sit here on the day the blu ray is released not having a strong desire to buy the film. That feeling sucks. I am very mixed about the film, at times I love it, at times I want to strangle who ever wrote a certain line or allowed a scene to remain in the final cut. Never felt this way with Star Wars. There are things I disliked about the prequels but not like this.

I feel like not only do I have mixed feelings about this film but I now no longer have the excitement I had for the next Star Wars film. I want to see Solo, but I'm not counting the days like I was for 7, RO, or 8. I'm not even thinking about 9 all that much, just like whatever. That loss of anticipation and excitement has hit me more than anything else. I dunno, I guess I'll go buy Last Jedi now and watch it again. lol

 

I agree with most of your points. I really wanted to love this movie and I do love parts of it, but overall, I'm conflicted right now. However, I just watched it last night and need to re-watch. My opinions may change with time.

 

The following is a response to a “non-hater” in the "Hated TLJ Thread". In an effort to keep that thread a venting room but also to reply back, I'm placing it here in this thread because it seems like there should be no point of contention of debating the merits of the movie in this thread. There is no presumed charter for this thread as one could infer exists for the "Hated TLJ Thread" and the "Loved TLJ Thread".

Spoiler: Anyone not interested in or offended by different opinions may be best to ignore this post.

I'll take the bait here and ask: What would you say where Rey's, Poe's, Finn's, Luke's, and Kylo's strength and weaknesses prior to TLJ? I realize for Rey, Poe, and Finn you only get to draw on one movie but maybe that makes the exercise more compact. Now, how was each weakness you previously identified (in your opinion) challenged/exploited in this movie? I believe if you answer this question honestly (for each character) you are going to end up corroborating more about what critics have said about the characters, than what Rian said was his vision. To be fair some of the critique goes towards the trilogy, not just TLJ, but TLJ would certainly not be exempt.

My assertion wasn't merely that he wanted people to understand Kylo, but that he wanted people to empathize with him, and one of the many necessary offerings on the altar of sacrifice towards that end was Luke's legacy. Also, a slight point of clarification, was it the Trilogy vision that Kylo and Rey are two halves of a protagonist or is it Rian's? Also, doesn't Rian say "ALMOST two halves"? And lastly, hard push back on the idea that Kylo is an anti-villain. He is a Villain, period. He's not out there getting his hands dirty for a good cause, his cause is power, and his ends are evil. That is a villain

Disagree here, it is a total reimagination (not just of Luke, but of Master Jedi in general). For all their flaws, their inflexible dogma, their blindness to threats, the one thing they never do is contemplate killing the innocent. Not ever. Not even for a second. And to have the Patron Saint of "Believing In the Goodness of Others" be the one to lead this departure from brand? It's a little too much disbelief to suspend. It's not difficult to argue that this retcon either represents profane contempt for or profane ignorance of Star Wars lore. If Luke had shown strength in the face of adversity he wouldn't be on Ach-to waiting to die. He wasn't on Ach-To regrouping, he gave up.

I don't ignore it, there was just far less of it (IMO). I don't talk about Rey as much as I do Luke and Finn, but this was NOT a good movie for her (IMO). Allow me to expound. She spent more time trying to rally Luke from his grumpy-funk and redeem Ben then she did anything else on her on behalf/for her own benefit. Yes she needed training, but did she actually go to Ach-To for training or to bring back Luke? Did she go to the Supremacy for her own benefit or did she go to try to turn Ben back to the light? It's like Finn relinquished the steering wheel at the end of TFA, and Rey become the Cosmic Busdriver, serving primarily to deliver other characters to where they needed to go. When they did focus on Rey's autonomy what did they do? Did TLJ at least have the common deceny to knock down some of the Mary Sue allegations from TFA? No, instead they double down on it.

I've heard the well-meaning retorts on Rey's behalf, but they don't work. Snoke being more powerful than Rey does nothing to negate the argument for her being a Sue. She doesn't have to be all powerful, she just has to be good at everything she does with little work, and (if she must exhibit flaws) to exhibit flaws that could also be considered virtues. And that's exactly what she is in TLJ. Rey's "flaw" (heavy quote fingers) is that she believes she can turn Kylo. That's it. She's naive at worst. And what does that flaw cost her? Does it cost her anything? Does she suffer a set back in TLJ, that she will be poised to overcome in EPIX? No. As if to really punctuate it all, Rey is the first person I can remember to not to be maimed or incapacitated while engaging in energized weaponry combat. Anakin loses an arm and 2 legs, Luke loses a hand, Mace loses a hand, Obi Wan is cut down by Count Dookou, Dookou loses his head, Maul is bisected. Both Finn and Kylo, cut multiple times and sliced open. Rey? Rey gets a literal scratch on the arm. *Throws hands up* So is Rey a Sue or is this really Rian simply falling asleep behind the wheel when it comes to Star Wars lore? It's one or the other I'd argue.

Let's look fruther. Rey isn't just a competent gunner on the MF, she is the first I have ever seen shoot down 3 TIEs with one shot, and 7 TIEs in less than 30 seconds. We have a frame of reference for about how often someone shoots down a TIE from within the MF by watching Luke, Han, and Finn. And no one is doing anything close to this. So either Rey is a Sue, or Rian Johnson really just decided, the existing metadata concerning gunner proficiency doesn't matter.

...that he never exhibits before in TFA. It's arguable that he ever exhibits them in the supplemental material.

Possible and plausible to have these traits... but the first time we see them? In TLJ. And to be clear, we don't see all these things in Poe, just some of them because it's the story Rian wants to tell regardless of Poe's established profile. Poe is just as reimagined as much as Luke is. Can you show me one time where Poe acts recklessly in TFA and puts the rest of his fellow pilots in danger as a result? If you can't think of one, can we agree that this is a new flaw being introduced for the sake of Rian's story?

In TFA Finn wanted to escape the war, and decides to flee. He is artificially given a reason to come back into the fray to save Rey from danger.
In TLJ Finn wanted to escape the war, and decides to flee. He is artificially given a reason to come back into the fray to save Rey from danger.

The only meaningful departure is that before: Finn came to ethical realizations on his own. He didn't need anyone to pontificate to him about the FO being bad news, or that he shouldn't fire on unarmed villagers, and that he had to be willing to face long odds to save his friends. He decided all of these own his own. Now Rose sermonizes to him the lessons because in TLJ he is unable to make meaningful discernments anymore. And it feels like another example of Rian not honoring what came before.

And believe it or not, I appreciate your take, I really do, I just don't agree with it.