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SPOILER THREAD FOR THOSE WHO FEEL MIXED ABOUT THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Talon Karrde, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    well theyve already made Anakin's saber "royal" before it was destroyed in TLJ so I wouldnt find it so shocking to have that happen to him
     
  2. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Rebel Official

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    You've bought up what could be considered a key difference.
    The PT shows Jedi sensing fear and anger in Anakin and explaining the dangerous path it can lead to.
    TLJ implies Luke is either seeing a vision of the future through a Force connection with Ben or is directly reading his thoughts.

    If it's a Force vision perhaps it's a higher category of evidence than mere suspicion (although one can argue with the future always being in motion the difference is negligible).
    If it's reading Ben's thoughts then Luke's judgment is based on assumptions and thought policing.
    This kinda mirrors fans judging him for his thoughts as opposed to following through with them!

    Ignoring the real-world explanations, the in-universe implications are interesting.
    Is there an explanation why we see this happen in the ST and not the PT?
    It could be against Jedi ethics without consent or a new or re-discovered ability.
    Great question.
    I got nothing!
    Wow. Interesting take.
    *laughs out loud*
    Why do I read your use of the words "artistic vision" as euphemism? :p
    I see nothing wrong with a narrative countering a common thread of a character - especially when it makes logical/dramatic sense.
    But this isn't something I see ST doing.

    I think it's important to look at all the evidence as I'm a real sucker for confirmation bias. :rolleyes:
    The evidence shows us a Luke Skywalker with a big heart, an optimism sometimes bordering on the naive, a sensitivity for good and evil in others, and the galaxies biggest example of inspiring evil to turn good.
    The evidence also shows us a Luke Skywalker with a common thread of moodiness, impertinence, disregard for mentor's warnings, and acts of anger and aggression. (That's just the OT, we haven't seen the guy in decades.)

    I don't see this complexity of good and bad traits in Luke as contradictory or problematic.
    I see it as a reasonable representation of a flawed protagonist.
    He's a relatable human encountering life's toughest conundrums who doesn't deserve to be put on a pedestal.

    Surely we can allow Luke a moment where emotion surfaces before being reined in - it's kinda his thing and his major point of difference from his father.
    These Skywalker's were always too old when they began training!
    Yep.
    He just saw Ben killing everything he held dear.
    Luke's trained his entire adult life to protect his loved ones and The Resistance.
    It's why he thought about killing Ben and it's why he was trying to turn Vader.
    I'd go with ambiguous and complex. ;)

    Luke's dilemma is classic SW: themes of defeating evil and protecting loved ones and exploring the epic tension when these themes collide.
    It's also a next-level repeat of Luke's OT dilemma. (He was warned dabbling with anger and aggression may haunt his destiny.)

    Luke's traumatic event was about when your life's purpose of guarding peace and justice intercepts with the realization the nephew in your care is your biggest threat. The bonus is the symmetry - in Ben's case the realization that your uncle is your biggest threat.
    If he'd swung instead of coming to his senses I'd see a lot more merit in the "out of character" claim.
    But even then he's swung in anger before.
     
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  3. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I say it derisively, but it isn't a euphemism. The fact that I don't like it doesn't negate it's nature as art. But yeah I typed it with an attitude and rolled my eyes LOL

    Fair enough. Is it not also fair to consider trajectory? What I mean is it's fair to note someone's past, but can we also agree that as we grow and develop we do outgrow things that used to be a part of us. Obi Wan is impetuous when we first meet him in TPM, he's arrogant and condescending in TCW and to a lesser extent in ROTS. He is neither of those things by the time we meet him in ANH many years down the line. I attribute this to his Jedi Mastery (which may be at play) but it could be just good ol' fashioned growth. I would argue that over the OT, Luke out grew his moodiness, his disregard for wisdom, his impatient and impertinence. Part of his developmental arch was to show how far he had come from the guy pining away for adventure, to the man seeking to save his friends, save his father, and save the galaxy. That is the OT.

    Ryan literally regresses him to ANH levels. He's angry, he's moody again, he hasn't heeded his mentor's wisdom, he's pining away (albeit about failure)... and the worst part of it? It's canon. Luke becomes something inspirational to all of us, overcomes his weaknesses, defeats "the enemy within", reaches a higher level of understanding, wisdom, perspective, skill, and power...

    ...just to become an old angry Jedi at an outdoor Nursing Home waiting to die and yelling at the kids to stay off of his lawn. Why? So Rian can take him down a peg just before he kills him to teach us about failure. I promise you, absolutely NOBODY has been waiting decades to see Luke retrograded for plot purposes. That is NOT the heroic send off we wanted to see nor the one he earned.

    Allow Luke to show emotion? Sure. Allow Luke to spectacularly fail a test he already passed 30 years ago? Not so much. If the Luke of ROTJ was merely a powerful and proficient in Jedi skills without accompanying growth in mental discipline and understanding, maybe this Bizarro-Luke that Rian envisions plays better on the big screen. As it stands now? It feels like a fully artificial regression.

    Again, if he wasn't going to kill Ben, how was he going to stop Ben from turning. Whatever that "thing" was that he was going to do, THAT'S what he should have resolved to do when he entered Ben's hut. THAT is what his instinct should have been (IMO).
     
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  4. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Rebel Official

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    I don't think Luke grew out of his humanity but yeah I think it's fair to consider trajectory.
    FWIW I think it's think Luke losing self control for a moment is a legitimate hurdle for fans to try and overcome in TLJ.

    There's definitely solid points for and against the decision.
    I just think it's a reasonable choice - it's similar enough to weakness we've seen in the past and different enough in scope and makeup to justify intimidating Luke.

    Writers of Luke Skywalker 30 years on are in a bit of a catch 22 and I don't what other weakness of Luke's you could exploit to give him some growth.
    If it's a new weakness you'd get the "it's not the Luke we know" criticism.
    If it's a similar weakness you'd get the "you're haven't let Luke grow" criticism.

    Anyway I should probably give members a break from my POV. :rolleyes:
    The defense rests Your Honor. ;)
    I dislike proselytizers and don't want sharing my 2 cents to be confused with attempts to change minds! :eek:
    Ha, I see the grumpy old man nursing home Luke image in TLJ!

    I'm not sure if Rian set out to take Luke down a peg to teach us about failure.
    Rian said he started with Luke's story by exploring how he could be in the circumstances TFA left him.
    He examined the hero's journey in classic epics like King Arthur and Beowulf and drew on their motifs that suggest after the optimism of youth the older hero's narrative often takes a darker turn where they often struggle with familial disputes and personal tragedy.
    I get many fans didn't like seeing him in a funk but he found himself and got a heroic send off...right?
    ☑ displayed amazing level of power
    ☑ saved friends/Resistance
    ☑ heroic sacrifice (found an honorable death on his terms)
    ☑ denied enemy the opportunity to kill him
    ☑ gave hope and inspiration to downtrodden.
    I don't think Luke had a plan for the worst case scenario entering that hut (maybe that was a mistake).
    I think he got caught unawares.

    He said he sensed moments of darkness in Ben's training.
    As leader of Jedi Camp he may have felt a duty of care to interrogate/examine him further and was shocked by what he saw.
    If Luke believed Ben had already turned he may have panicked while motivated by the need to protect his friends and other wards.

    Great thought exercise about what he should have done though - it's got me thinking.
    Like you say maybe he should have followed through.
    It's paradoxical that it may have been Luke's caution and sentiment that made Ben the darksider he is.
     
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  5. Neilof Wales

    Neilof Wales Clone

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    Hi everyone, first time poster here. I've been reading these boards a long time though.

    Anyway, I absolutely love all the Star Wars films so far. TLJ for me was great, I just watched it again now on 3D Bluray. The only 1 issue I have though is with the sequel trilogy in general though. Why don't we see or at least hear a mention of any of the planets from the original trilogy or the prequels? I know Rogue One featured two PT planets, but that was a spin off movie. That is pretty much my only gripe so far, along with the fact Anakin Skywalker didn't show up as a force ghost in TLJ. Here's hoping he will in episode 9.
     
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  6. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Clone Commander

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    I don't personally have a problem with that.
     
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  7. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I don't mean to say/imply he grew out of humanity and was without flaw, just that his next challenge should have been in alignment with where he was. New knowledge and new understanding can still come with new challenges. As we evolve, so do our problems, issues, and concerns. But we shouldn't have to reconquer the challenges of our youth. What I worked to overcome and understand in my 20's, is not what I worked to overcome and understand in my 30's. So yes to new challenges, but in particular, yes to new challenges that come as a result of our new growth. That all said, I'm not at all off-put by your differing view, I think you bring up some valid points (I'm considering a lot of them and checking my own positions). There is a difference (IMO) of giving your view and prefacing as such, as opposed to saying, people who disagree with you simply do not understand. You haven't done that, so it is really easy to receive your differing view and try to learn from it. However if this was your way of diplomatically saying, "yeah I'm done with this" no problem LOL.

    To clarify the "taking Luke down a peg" comment was in reference to the idea of "meeting your heroes". I think in Rian's eyes if Luke is still the Luke of ROTJ then he is the legend that Rey came to meet and wouldn't be let down, per the direction he wanted to take Rey.

    His send off was underwhelming to me. The ony conflicts that felt like they were truly in the spirit of SW was the opening battle over D'Qar, the Hyperspace Attack, and the throne room battle. Everything else (Finn Phasma, Battle of Crait, Fathier Stampede) felt hollow (for me). Especially Finn-Phasma and Kylo-Luke. In both instances the victories seem "backed into" and "unearned". For Luke in particular there was nothing on the line and nothing risked. Lump sum, Luke dodges Kylo a few times and then disappears. For me - that was flat soda; it initially tastes like there might be some kick but the more you experience the more you feel what it is lacking. You have a brief moment of "oh wow, he wasn't there" that later on turns into, "oh wow he wasn't even there" with sad-trombone intonations. Now maybe that's in alignment with Rian's subversion initiative (even the victories don't get to feel like victories because he feels we need to be weened off of what is familiar about SW) but honestly that doesn't make for good movie watching. The feeling you got when you saw the Hyperspace attack and the throne room battle, I argue, is what you should feel with Luke-Kylo and the Finn-Phasma undercard. And that wow factor is entirely absent.


    You're right, he didn't

    Fair point again. And maybe Rian does raise an interesting question, "If you could kill the anti-christ before he became the anti-christ would you do it". And if you've never contemplated the question, if you're put on the spot, maybe you do hesitate while contemplating it. But I think it's a question to the audience not to Luke. If we, the audience have Jedi training, the answer is a resounding no, a thousand times nay. He has a philosophical framework from which to work to broach questions he hasn't been asked before. The course of action he considered does NOT lie within that continuum. So for me, it just won't ever work. But from a simple layman human perspective, I can see how the question could make you pause, and even take a course of action and stop mid stream. But from my own philosophical framework, there are some things that, if you think them - you do them. And if you would not under any circumstances do an action, you do not consider it under any circumstance. Killing Ben for me is one of those.

    There's an interesting question in all this about is the future real if you can see it before it happens? Is destiny set? I think in this instance, Luke saw into the future, but not far enough back to realize that "maybe these set of events only come to pass if you contemplate killing Ben and he catches you." Maybe his darkness is only fully actualized when Luke goes to confront him. He never seems to consider that during his mind scan of Ben.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel Official

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    If the intent is to depict him rather as a representation of the darkside in general, then his lineage becomes fairly incidental. What I’m hoping for is Kylo and Rey to meet somewhere in the middle, as it were. That standing in the darkness doesn’t necessarily have to equate to genocide and totalitarianism. That’s a choice.

    It’s possible he can be redeemed, but not in a ‘come to the light’ way. That much would be new to the story and have nothing to do with any Skywalker shenanigans.
    It was alluded that Plagues created him . . . via the Force. So the prophecy would still be accurate, just not as favorable to the Jedi as they thought. Which, I’m pretty sure, was what Lucas was getting at.
     
  9. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Rebel Official

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    Fair call.
    There must be other weaknesses of Luke to exploit with new challenges. I'm just struggling to think of any at the moment!
    I imagine once a writer thought of that Skywalker opera moment between uncle and nephew it would be hard to get away from.
    Ha! That's kind of you to say.
    In a briefest moment of pure instinct I was feeling self-conscious about harping on then halfway through your reply I found myself right back in the mess!

    What's going on? This discussion is much too amiable and aware. :eek:
    This is supposed to be the internet - we have a reputation to uphold! Where's the talking past each other and the ignorance of nuance!! :p
    Oh.
    I guess they were referencing Empire but also needed a point of difference.
    They sure turned things up.
    Using (abusing to some) Luke for that theme was a low blow – it hit me hard in my drama guts and like Rey I found Luke on Achtoo difficult to digest.

    Sure I see flashes of the old Luke I loved (Force lesson, Falcon scene) but they were sandwiched between those Trickster Mentor tropes, the cynical grumpy old man vibe you mentioned, and the sad reality of his heart-break and shame.

    I can understand the messing with Rey now. I mentioned in another thread they're in line with some classic SW tropes like The Eccentric Mentor who's a Hermit Guru and gives wannabe apprentices Secret Tests of Character...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ...but the whole combination was a lot to take in and confused me.
    It was a heady mix that actually left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth after my first screening.
    The wow factor was limited in Luke-Kylo for me too but it got replaced with a slow-burn of the meta layers involved and visual metaphor.

    One aspect I love is how Luke's actually doing similar things as in the hut but a little different and this time it's no mistake.
    His sabers lit again, Kylo's getting provoked, but there's no chance of it swinging in anger or fear, in fact it doesn't even swing!

    I agree about Finn-Phasma but write it off as a minor subplot gripe and file it under "kids action movie". :rolleyes:
    Good point and it makes sense.
    I can entertain this and opposing lines of thinking about this and other scenes.

    I think of RJ saying when he has different options on the table he goes for the most dramatic.
    I see reasonable arguments for and against – I'll give situations like these a pass by playing the genre card.
    Maybe it's a case of melodrama sometimes trumps reason here?
    Sounds like a typical RJ thing to expand or explore in SW!
    It seems when SW broaches metaphorical and metaphysical time and space more questions arise than are answered!

    SW is tricky like that.
    It entertains multiple messages of fate, destiny, and personal autonomy but all the lore just comes fro character points of view.
    Trying to get my head around which has priority makes it ache!
     
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  10. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebelscum

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    It's exactly what Lucas was getting at. The original script for RotS had an, "I am your father" moment between Anakin and Sidious where he explained that he had the power to create life with the Force and he created Anakin. Lucas ended up scrapping it and that's where the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the wise comes from, a way to convey the same point without beating the audience over the head with it.
     
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  11. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    If an evil wizard created Plagueis, then he was not chosen by the force itself because a Sith manipulated the force to create him. He is basically the son of the devil and not space Jesus.
     
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  12. eeprom

    eeprom Rebel Official

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    Palpatine: Darth Plagueis...could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life.
    Qui-Gon: It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

    Anakin, who was made using midi-chlorians, destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force. Exactly as we were told the prophecy stated. Why or how the midis were involved is irrelevant. What the Jedi interpreted that to mean is irrelevant. What was foretold to happen happened. For good or ill, Anakin fulfilled his role as the “chosen one”. That doesn’t make him “space Jesus” OR 'space Antichrist', just the guy that did the thing.
     
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  13. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I think of a number of them off the top of my head "faith in the Jedi", "Jedi Blind spot", "Hubris"... any one of those I think could serve as a vehicle to challenge Luke, to have him removed from the "playing field" in TFA, that didn't seem to reboot him to Luke version 1.0. At least that's my view.

    I think it's tone. Neither one of us is being condescending or insultive. I'm not sure we've agreed on alot, but that's fine as long as we don't make our interpretations prosciptive of how othes must view the film. I think that's all that's necessary.

    I didn't like the grumpy old cynical teacher meets the eager student trope, but honestly of the sins of TLJ this one was. Luke vs Kylo (I think) could have been epic (and served the same purpose - to buy time for the resistance). Of course I know some people would argue that it was borrowing too much from the OT. I wouldn't have, but I can see that being a concern as to why they opted not to do it. I think the epic factor would have been worth the criticism.

    Hypothetical question, everything else being the same, if Poe had followed orders, how do you think things would have played out?
     
  14. Chobbly

    Chobbly Clone Trooper

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    Well, I guess Finn and Rose wouldn't have gone to Canto Bight, the First Order wouldn't have learned about the transports and so would probably have believed the Resistance was destroyed after they wiped out the Raddus. Holdo would still be alive, and all the transports would have arrived safely on Crait, where they could sit out the next few weeks while their allies sorted themselves out. The Resistance as a whole would have been in a much better shape. Rey's confrontation with Kylo would have gone the same, but Luke wouldn't have needed to force project to Crait.

    Leia might even have gone to see Luke herself on Ach-To, to ask Luke to rejoin the fight and become the legend once again that defeated Darth Vader and the Emperor.

    I've just depressed myself. Oh well.
     
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  15. Silver Spirit

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    I have some drastically mixed feelings about TLJ.

    It has some of my favorite Star Wars moments ever. Luke's storyline is terribly shallow, but every moment Luke is on screen is priceless.

    I've now watched the film 6 times, 4 in the theatre and twice at home. Originally I found that I appreciated the movie significantly with additional viewings but the last 2 times have made me go the other direction. There are so many things that break down as I pull at the threads.

    TLJ for me is the most thematic of all the Star Wars films but to its own detriment. Though its thematically saturated its laking in plot development and depth. I'm no longer sure I can trust anything the movie puts forward. However, if I had to boil it down, my main gripe is that it doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie. It just doesn't breath in the same way.

    I don't care that Luke almost killed Kylo. I have never thought Luke was an old guard Jedi. He was never an apprentice, and just received instruction from a wounded master. Most of which he disregards in the OT. I'm far more interested in the repercussions of Luke cutting himself off from the force, and what it means for the plot. Explore that, tell me why he's looking for the 1st temple.

    Take the Rey cave / mirror scene. I like the scene, but I don't trust that I can have any strong belief about the truth of that scene and its importance within the plot, because more and more I don't think there is any importance to it other then a plot device that helps Rey connect with Kylo.

    I also don't hate the force link of Kylo and Rey. I actually kind of like it. What I hate is how Luke once in tune with the force, senses it and runs to the hut. Interesting and vital to the story yet unexplained.

    Everyone likes to rag on JJ for his mystery boxes but Rian Johnson I think created just as many, but soured them at the same time.

    I love that Snoke bites it and after multiple viewings you pick up on how much Kylo wants to kill him in the earlier conversation in the film. General Hux is a hug microcosm of mixed feelings. I find his character incredibly annoying and shallow, yet very entertaining.

    I like the idea of the Canto Bite task but it's very silly, and if you have a ship that can jump to hyper space why not start evacuating people over and over.

    I like Rose i guess but her sister in 2min screen time was more interesting.

    The whole film is laking any emotional weight and yet the ending for me is incredibly emotional.

    See what I mean, I mixed up.
     
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  16. Chobbly

    Chobbly Clone Trooper

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    Agree - Mark Hamill's performance, regardless, was incredible. He really sold what he had to. Whilst some people love TLJ, some hate it, some (like me) are mixed, the response to Mark Hamill's performance has been largely uniform.

    I know what you mean - I read somewhere that Luke had decided to join up with Rey and the Resistance and was on his way to tell Rey when he encountered the Force connection between Kylo and Rey. Knowing that Luke was about to rejoin the fight would have made what happened all the more tragic.

    That's a good point. Wouldn't there be a standing order to evacuate Leia or Holdo as soon as, perhaps other members of the command staff if the Raddus had already got ships which can jump away to hyperspace? Especially that the First Order were tracking the Raddus?

    Questions, questions, questions....
     
  17. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi Commander

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    You mean these glorified space buses?
    [​IMG]
    But they weren't able to jump to hyperscace.
     
  18. Chobbly

    Chobbly Clone Trooper

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    I meant the ship that Finn and Rose took - didn't that jump to hyperspace? Brain is fuzzy at this point.
     
  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi Commander

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    Can they really not?

    That's a pretty serious downgrade from the GR-75s. Thank the Force those ships had hyperdrives, or the Battle of Hoth would've ended up a whole lot worse. Heck, depending on canon, without these bad boys the Rebels probably wouldn't have even made it to Hoth.
     
  20. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi Commander

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    Yeah, these seemed to serve only as shuttles between ground and capital ships.
    Oh, you meant these things? In theory maybe they were able to do such a thing, but I'm not sure if splitting forces would be the best idea in the situation the Resistance was and that's not mentioning the hyperspace tracking capabilities of the First Order.
     
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