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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO FEEL MIXED ABOUT THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Talon Karrde, Dec 16, 2017.

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  1. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    It's explained pretty clearly and definitively. In the scene immediately beforehand, Luke reconnects with the Force. During the scene where he senses Leia it's made pretty clear by the water in the mosaic pool shaking while he's meditating.

    It's also shown clearly that he has reconnected with the Force through him destroying the hut, Force pulling an antenna, and then levitating above the ground when he falls down.

    I always wonder about things like this in a film. I say to myself, "we get it, he has the Force again. You don't need to tell us 5 different times." However, someone who has watched the film 6 times missed it so it did need to be in there that many times. Not trying to talk down to you but it is interesting to me.
     
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  2. Silver Spirit

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    No No No, Not what I meant. Yes that's very obviously what happens. What I'm saying is that the thing not being explained, or explored, is why. Why is Luke going to Rey? To stop the link that he senses, or is there another reason. Is it possible that he now realizes who she is. Luke has almost no dialog in the scene. Essentially I wanted more. Again I think the biggest mystery box of TLJ is Luke cutting himself off from the force.

    Personally after watching it so many times I'm convinced Rey is completely compromised by the Dark side. Talk about failure at the cave.

    Anyway, to me the tragedy of the scene is on the audience who misses out on what could have been. However, I'm not sure if that was the intended response or simply my response because of a great disappointment in the film.
     
    #82 Silver Spirit, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  3. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    First of all, it doesn't matter what the reason is, Luke's reason for going to her could be anything. If it doesn't further the plot to know his reason then it doesn't matter.

    Secondly, no she is not even close to the dark side in that moment; the audience is made to think she is. She clearly says after her fight with Luke that she saw Kylo's future and she saw him turn from the dark side.

    Just now, when we touched hands...
    I saw his future.
    As solid as I'm seeing you.
    If I go to him, Ben Solo will turn.
     
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  4. Silver Spirit

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    You’re probably right, but she definitely hits Luke Freaking Skywalker in the back & barley stops from using the lightsaber.

    But it’s probably more audience manipulation, which the film does at seemingly every turn.
     
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  5. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    I don’t think TLJ is anything approaching ‘great’ or close to that comically misplaced moniker ‘masterpiece’, but I don’t feel it’s at all near to being a dumpster fire either. It was ‘good enough’ in my opinion. I wish it had been better, but I also wish TFA and R1 had been better too. So, for me, it was just more of the same - ‘so so’.

    Fred Weintraub famously gave a young George Lucas some movie making advice once upon a time: "if you hook the audience in the first ten minutes, they'll forgive anything." I think the reverse is true too. If you do something to alienate them in the first ten minutes, they won’t forget it. TLJ, I think, got off on the wrong foot with a lot of fans.

    Although it made perfect sense to me within the context of the narrative, Luke’s demeanor for his reintroduction (saber toss) lost a lot of people straight off and never got them back (that opening ‘gag’ with Poe crank-calling Hux probably didn’t help matters much either). I think a big bunch of people took that resentment with them for the rest of the film and no matter how great the rest was (mediocre in my opinion), they were going to find fault with it. Just my take.
    In the novel, for whatever it’s worth, communing with Leia had softened him on his position. Basically, he was going to Rey’s hut so she could convince him to go. Then he saw what was up in there and it pushed his needle right back where it was. An interesting wrinkle that couldn’t have really been shown on screen. You’re right though, it’s overall irrelevant to the narrative. Still though, might have extended some good will to make it clear that Luke’s mind wasn’t as made up as it seemed.
     
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  6. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    After watching TLJ a few times now and really able to digest every aspect of it, I am not mixed on the movie. I was in the 'hate' thread after seeing it in December, as too many things just turned me off. But I softened as time went on and finally saw it again on BluRay last month with a different set of expectations, and moved into the 'liked' thread.

    Now I'm mixed but for different reasons then most SW fans. I actually like the movie when it is viewed as a standalone, but I'm not crazy about it when I view it as part of the Saga (I hope that makes sense). In fairness, Episode 9 will give a clear picture to the ST so TLJ hasn't lost me yet as part of the Saga.

    It's really weird because I feel TFA and TLJ are better made/acted/executed movies then the PT movies, but I feel the PT story jives better with the OT and works better with the Saga.

    I need to goto a Therapist to sort this all out! :p
     
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  7. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    First time poster here, long time fan. Anyway...

    I'm still mixed about the movie. I neither love or hate it, but for me, so far, it's a 3 star movie (out of 5).
    These are my main gripes with the movie:

    I have trouble with the pacing. It's a chase movie, but the space scenes are about as exciting as watching a couple of cruisers following eachother in the caribbean.
    It should feel like a thrill ride with the ticking clock plot but there's not a lot of suspense going on.

    I liked the Snoke throne room scene, but I feel it was a waste to kill off Snoke, as surprising as it was, mainly because I don't think Kylo Ren holds up
    as the big bad of the trilogy. He is too conflicted and in now way as imposing as Vader and the Emperor. This might change with Episode IX (and I might reconsider this movie after IX) if the knights of Ren are added as a threat to our heroes.

    And when I think of Episode IX, I feel it's gonna be a gargantuan task for JJ to wrap this trilogy up. Like they have to start again from scratch,
    because all of the things and questions that were set up in Force Awakens were undone in this one - though I suspect there's more to Rey's parents.

    I didn't like the handling of Luke Skywalker. Though in fairness, expectations were probably way too high after 35 years of anticipation.
    I loved Mark Hamills performance, though, but thought it just felt sad the way he got sent off.
    My palms were sweating in the theater during his showdown with Kylo Ren, because I feared he was gonna pull an Obi Wan on Kylo. Letting Kylo strike him down and disappearing in his robes. But no, it was all a trick, and Luke wasn't really there. He was only projecting himself. Cool! But... he dies anyway.

    At the end of the movie I felt kinda empty instead of being excited for Episode IX.

    These are my two cents. Not loving it, not hating it. It's a good movie that I wanted to love.
     
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  8. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    I'm an ST devotee and I had the same feeling towards it after watching TFA, that it somehow didn't mesh with the rest of the saga. However, I don't have the same opinion about RO and TLJ.
     
  9. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    As someone who did not like the movie, I hear that pacing was an issue a lot, and for me it wasn't. The movie progressed in a timely manner, continuity was more of a problem (constantly cutting back and forth to disparate scenes didn't work for me, but the pacing was still acceptable to me)

    You are not alone in finding the death of Snoke a puzzling choice, the handling of Luke short sighted and off the mark, and feeling there is nothing really to look forward to in EPIX because there was nothing set up in TLJ. So we're likely to get a time jump where we're reintroduced to the characters already engaged in a conflict that happens off screen and development that happens off screen that they explain away in supplemental materials because TLJ didn't bother doing it. I don't they "can pull a rabbit out of the hat" with EPIX and salvage this. It may end up being an enjoyable movie but unless you loved TLJ I think this trilogy will be looked at as a disappointment years from now.
     
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  10. ZDTemplar

    ZDTemplar Rebel Trooper

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    The only thing really set up is an extended teen drama between Rey and Ren, with the backdrop of the galactic oppression kinda thrown in. Everything else was pretty much discarded by Rian.
     
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  11. onetrickpony

    onetrickpony Rebelscum

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    When I came out from the cinema watching the flick I was filled with mixed emotions about it.
    In a way I kind of liked it..yet in the way I also disliked many things...leaving me essentially thinking...what the heck did I just see and experienced?

    I refused to go see it again in the cinema and decided to wait for it’s eventually blu ray relase.
    Now after watching it several times I have come to some form of conclusion.As a matine kind of movie it had it’s entertaining sides to me.Like if it where a stand alone space movie kind of.It was okay....acceptable entertainment.
    But in the end as a part of the wider star wars movies I feel it to be bad with many wrong decisions taken.Leaving me feeling disappointed and essentially join the ranks of people who disliked it to the extent of feeling “they” have managed to kill Star Wars.

    One thing that I find annoying and kind of questioning the competence of K.K is this notion of making up things as we go.Leaving little coherence to the story at large.I even considered it to be bad while Lukas was in charge...but at least he had his general image in the head....and kind of managed two hold it all together...which I consider K.K failing with when I think of how she allowed and gave R.Johnson a green light to his vision.

    So I have to redo my list of ranking...

    From worst to best

    The Phantom Menace

    The Last Jedi

    The Force Awakens

    Rouge One

    The Return Of The Jedi

    A New Hope

    The Empire Strikes Back

    *Have not seen Solo yet
     
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  12. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebelscum

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    I say it is an oversimplification at best to claim Canto was about "rich people bad".

    The message was clearly (to my eyes) that getting rich off of death, destruction, misery, and abuse is wrong and if the viewer has issues with that it is on them and to then insist on conflating those folks with anyone with wealth is a very lazy mechanism to cover reflexive defensiveness of identification with war profiteering and abuse of children and animals.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I think that's what the later segments are definitely about, especially the hologram scene with DJ above the shuttle "The bad guys... and the good".

    The actual scene, though- I think there definitely was a weird animal rights scene there, but I think in general it did two things:

    1) Showed opulence in a ST film. So far, we've never really seen much in the way of "Prequel Extravagance" in anything outside of the prequels. Even the Empire and First Order were dark minimalists. This segment helped make it seem just a little more believable that The Last Jedi, the original trilogy, and something like The Phantom Menace were all part of one connected universe.

    2) Highlighted the Resitance's struggle (and a possible weakness of The First Order). We last see the Resistance struggling to survive in an old mining base on a salt planet. We see the First Order doing better, but even so the little extravagence they allowed themselves in their mostly utilitarian and practical ships, has been burned away.
    upload_2018-6-7_11-27-59.png

    On Canto Bight, though, we see this:

    [​IMG]


    It's definitely not the movie's best scene by a long shot, but I believe it does do some world-building. Even between the First Order and the Resistance, there is a galaxy out there- and I think it's reasonable enough to assume that it's due for a reckoning in IX, one way or the other.
     
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  14. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I don't mind SW expanding the universe and the existing factions of power. We know the Hutts have some control in the galaxy (even if we haven't explored it in any real detail) so implicitly we know there is more than just Empire vs. Rebellion FO vs. Resistance. I don't think Canto Bight is ground breaking in that regard, but it also isn't rule breaking.

    My biggest qualm with Canto are the CLEAR themes coming out of it, that are even being articulated in this very thread, that provide no real logical genesis for Finn choosing the Resistance. Canto Bight isn't the FO or the Resistance. If they are corrupt, if they are war profiteers, if they are cruel and oppressive, then we can all understand why we don't like them. But they aren't the FO. So why should Finn join the Resistance if his time on Canto Bight is supposed to be pivotal to that decision? There is no logical synthesis there.

    In the end, Rian's concept of Devil and Angel on shoulders, becomes Rose programming Finn's ethics and values as though he had none (which runs entirely contrary to the core of Finn's development in TFA. We first meet him putting his ethics on display - he won't kill for the FO). I'm fine with people noting that he didn't choose the Resistance at the end of TFA; he didn't. But where is the logic in Finn choosing the resistance based on the Canto Bight experience? Even worse, why is the story point here that if Finn doesn't choose a side he could become like DJ? Han didn't choose the Rebellion after ANH; did he turn out ok despite not officially joining a side?
     
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  15. Chobbly

    Chobbly Clone Trooper

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    I totally agree with what you said in your post, onetrickpony (trimmed for space, hope that's ok). I too was confused with my reactions and emotion when I saw it at the cinema and decided not to bother going to see it again and wait for the Bluray instead. My reaction on the second viewing was that I liked some of it more, and some of it less which is exactly how I didn't want to feel.

    Mark Hamill's performance was even better the second time round, especially with the deleted scenes (why, oh why, was the 10 second scene with Luke grieving over Han not included? I don't buy the 'Leia would have known' argument one bit and actually it shows that the twins can't even support one another in their differing types of grief, perhaps when they need each other the most because they are apart).

    Taking TLJ in isolation and out of the context as a sequel, there's some nice bits in. But as a sequel to The Force Awakens, and the original trilogy, that's where to me it struggles. I hadn't thought about Finn's arc in the way Rayjefury says before, but it's right. There isn't logic in Finn choosing the Resistance (again) based on his experiences on Canto Bight; if anything finding out the Resistance/New Republic use the same arms barons and profiteers as the First Order should have actually pushed him away, which could have been a more interesting character development.

    For me, the positives and negatives with TLJ remain the same, and whether the ST dips in the middle or slides down from the arguably slightly-too-familiar beats of TFA, I guess time will tell.
     
  16. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    My impressions on Finn

    The character is introduced to us as morally confused. He doesn’t want to harm innocents, but isn’t necessarily interested in protecting them either. It’s a forgone conclusion for him that it can’t be done. The only person he can possibly protect is himself. In the act of securing his own safety, he gets an “innocent” person (presumably) killed.

    He feels responsible for getting Poe involved. That “death” weighs on him. When another innocent person he involves in his quest for self-preservation, Rey, is imperiled he instantly acts on it. He expanded his definition of ‘self’ to include her. Saving himself then now also includes saving her. His personal safety no longer matters if Rey isn’t safe too.

    My take is that TLJ, and all that dreadful Canto Bight nonsense, is about expanding Finn’s definition of ‘self’ further still. To include all the forgotten ones. All the downtrodden and abused innocents of the galaxy that have no one to stand up for them. Securing his own safety, and that of Rey’s, is no longer enough anymore. The desire now is to protect those that can’t protect themselves.

    That, I feel, is the crux of Rose’s woefully misplaced line about “saving what we love”. He’s aligning himself with the only force around willing to stand up to oppression. Not because he wants to defeat the enemy, but because he wants to protect all the smelly little Dickensian space urchins of the galaxy like the ones on dopey Canto Bight.

    Or maybe I’m way off base here and RJ wasn’t sure what exactly he was trying to do there. Who knows?
     
  17. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    His arc was just dreadful. But it could have avoided some direct hits to it's credibility if they had:

    1. Made an effort to establish more of an ideological alignment and partnership between Cantonica and FO (so that each could be considered an extension of the other, even though they are separate entities)
    2. Made an effort to establish that the Resistance didn't just exist to fight the FO but to fight against injustice.

    Instead they establish the War Profiteers and Elite as something separate from the FO and the Resistance so that there is no logical reason for Finn to choose either (FO or Resistance) based on his experience with the Cantonica Elite. Couple this with established SW elements (i.e. that the Rebellion, Republic, the Resistance and Jedi have traditionally generally sought to keep peace, not uproot injustice) and (we have Han established as a character who doesn't formally join a side and he does just fine), and Canto Bight is either bad writing, lazy, or both.
     
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  18. Han Salsiccia

    Han Salsiccia Clone Trooper

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    I have the same feeling. I feel like a lot of the stuff in The Last Jedi could have been a comic book tie in. The movie could've started on Crait.
     
  19. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    The novelization made it much more clear. Luke was going to Rey because he has changed and was ready to join and go back with her. Not sure if any of the deleted sequences showed more of this. In the novel he is running and calling out her name. You see the end of that in the movie. He isnt calling her out in anger. He is calling her out to tell her she is right he needs to rejoin. Then he gets a cold slap in the face seeing the 2 of them touching hands and he reverts back until the conversation with Yoda.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 11, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 11, 2018 ---
    I never understand this. What was discarded? Snoke or his back story? What we have is the ultimate defeat of the Resistance or the First Order. All the characters have been setup and we will have a time jump in between to set things up.
     
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  20. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Clone Commander

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    Hm, I really feel they have been trying to patch up on things since it’s release. I think people at Lucasart/Disney recognize the flaws...too bad there’s so much to fix, and that the movies really need to stand on their own. Extra content should add stuff and expand the universe, instead of being used as band aid on a movie full of leaks and holes.
     
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