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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO FEEL MIXED ABOUT THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Talon Karrde, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    In the long run, a good story always triumphs an unoriginal story, so it is really interesting how the PT and ST legacy will shake out. Once the newness of the movies evaporates, that is when a movie has to hold up because you need a reason to revisit. I have revisited the PT many times in the past 20 years (sometime frustatingly because of the execution and CGI), but it's the story that makes me keep coming back. I worry that the ST will fall flat years from now, because the Trilogy is essentially Restistance vs First Order part 2 and Rey trying to redeem Kylo Ren part 2.
     
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  2. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    Here’s the thing about fan service and respecting fans. Too much fan service is not good. So showing Luke doing massive backflips and him throwing ships at Walkers would have just been a cartoon.

    Mark Hamill said that he told RJ that you got to think of the fans and RJ said “no we got to what’s best for the story. we have to give something they don’t expect that WE want to tell.”

    This in theory might have worked but when you are making Part 8 of a 9 part saga in a beloved franchise. there should be some diplomacy.

    You subvert expectations, you challenge the fans, but you don’t ever MESS with the fans. And I think they underestimated the fans. Example, The Dark Knight challenged the fans with something deeper, philosophical but it never trolled the fans.

    Empire Strikes Back gave you something challenging but it was satisfying. It wasn’t self-aware of its predecessor like TLJ. It felt like it was organically building off of what came before and pushing us into new territory that kept you hungry for more. Even ROTJ does this. It makes you reassess Darth Vader and the notion of finding goodness within bad people.

    It’s one thing when Lucas “trolls” fans. Hypocritical as that may sound but he is the creator. It’s his franchise and that’s his right. Doesn’t mean he is immune to criticism but it’s at least a little more tolerable. When someone else comes in to try to do the same thing, it doesn’t quite work. David Lynch can troll his fans with Dougie in Twin Peaks but David Lynch earned that right. And guess what? It actually paid off in the long run. He wasn’t just trolling for the sake of trolling.

    If RJ did this in his own trilogy that’s different. It’s his own story that’s his reign. But the Skywalker saga is not his, it’s still Lucas’. They are still going off of the previous six films that came before. You may not like the PT but you still have to respect what came before because other people loved it.

    Trolling the fans isn’t always bad and sometimes you need to do it. But I feel like you have to make sure that you are doing it in a way that is satisfying on its own, which is why I think a lot of people have problems with this trilogy.

    In the end, I just think that TLJ wanted it both ways. It wanted to be both super comedic, dark and serious and all these other things. It wanted to homage “all star wars” but I think it bit more than it chewed and wasn’t very focused.

    It’s also entirely possible that 8 secretly planted certain seeds that will payoff in episode IX without us knowing it. If that’s the case, I might respect VIII a little more.
     
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  3. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Rebel Official

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    I can't agree or disagree with this (ask me again in 10 years or so ;)) but I see your point. I know I'll at least revisit TFA, if only for the fun factor and good chemistry in the cast.

    As for TLJ, I find it hard to think about in binary terms, if that makes sense. I think it was a very good movie and a very good Star Wars movie, but I don't necessarily like it too much. I liked it better the second time, but overall it doesn't feel as...cohesive? necessary? important? as it should be.

    THAT ALL BEING SAID, I respect the ever-loving stuffing out of Rian Johnson for all the love he clearly put into this movie. I honestly think I like watching the deleted scenes and behind-the-scenes goodies more than the movie itself. That's why I want to see RJ's trilogy. Not because I like his movies (the only other movie I saw from him was Looper and I wasn't impressed); not because I like how he does plot twists; but because his joy for Star Wars, his PASSION is infectious.

    So I'm mixed on my feelings, but that's not a bad thing. Sometimes it's okay to look past the love/hate spectrum and try and see things in a new light.
     
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  4. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Now that I have even more time to think about ST in general, my disappointment of the ST doesn't come from TLJ but from TFA itself. I personally not even mad about how Luke was treated in TLJ (I get why people do have the issue). Only thing I wanted out of the ST (which I thought was a given) was to see Luke's New Jedi Academy and Episode 7 didn't give me that. That's really the only thing I wanted to see out of the ST even if Luke's academy was about to collapse (flashback scenes isnt enough). I wanted to see how Luke's new Jedi order would be different compare to the PT Jedi Order (Luke admitting their flaws did make me happy). With with that said TFA was a fun movie and TLJ was an okay movie but my excitement of the ST isn't that big anymore especially seeing the end of TFA knowing any chance of seeing Luke's new academy was gone.
     
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  5. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel Commander

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    My biggest problem with TFA was that it brought the galaxy to the exact same status-quo as the original. The Jedi wiped out. Big evil military organization fighting a small rag tag group of rebels. The Republic gone. A planet destroying super weapon. It tried to hard to be like A New Hope rather than going in a new direction. I liked TLJ because it was able to build off of TFA yet take the story somewhere new by the end of the film. I bet that Episode 9 will finally give us the new Jedi order we’ve been waiting for. The problem is that it’s the last movie of the trilogy.
     
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  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Continued from another thread.

    I can't even concede that he did what he should have done with a middle chapter but my thought was just that because it was a middle chapter, there was no possibility that he could tie off the development of the new characters, so its not something with which I would think to credit him.

    It's maybe semantics or perspective but I don't view it as "Rian did what he needed to do" so much as "Rian did what he did". I don't view EPIX as being particularly aided or well postured to be successful by the story points provided to it by TLJ. In my view there is no challenge or conflict for Rey to overcome coming out of TLJ. However she is challenged, it will be fabricated in EPIX. There is no challenge or conflict for Finn to overcome coming out of TLJ. However he is supposed to show his elevation, will be fabricated in EPIX.

    Perhaps it's too much to ask for any movie to be the ESB of their trilogy, but TLJ (to me) only does "what it needed to do" in the most rudimentary sense: to tell a story that happens inbetween TFA and TLJ. It doesn't advance TFA's most interesting threads, nor does it plant seeds to bloom forward in EPIX. It is simply the Episode in between 7 and 9 with minimal connective tissue to either.

    That said, I'm not blind. I saw the visuals in the throne room, the hangar fight, the hyperspace attack. They are jaw dropping. If you want to extol Johnson for that I can't begrudge you. If you want to extol him for use of foreshadowing, symbolism, and parallelism, I can see why. Some of them are pretty good (though some of the examples being provided in the other thread are approaching the realm of "Texas Sharp Shooter" fallacy). If you like themes, he gives you one that is semi-overarching. I you like attention to minor details, he has it covered. One thing that does not get discussed a lot is the thought they he put into devising a plausible way that Kylo could kill someone who could read his mind. Another aspect is how he had the characters show more realistic mourning after loss (i.e. Rose).

    Lost in all this (in my opinion) is nuanced observation.

    Rian shot a good film, but he didn't tell a good story; and I think that's the crux of it. He really does not tell a good Star Wars story; and doesn't seem to be aware of it. It'd be great to have both (a great film and a great story), but if you had to pick one at the cost of the other, it has to be the story you get right. SW has survived shortcomings with dialogue and acting, I don't think it can survive bad stories. It's almost as if (and this is conjecture on my part) Rian was so intent on showing us the fans how he thought Star Wars should have been filmed that he missed completely on the type of story that should be told. George Lucas said it himself, Star Wars is a space soap opera; that makes it something we experience and feel. It's big questions with big answers. TLJ is more like an English Literature textbook, it's something you study but don't feel; something you follow but don't experience. It's a film that says the questions don't matter and if they did, you still don't need answers.

    In all the Episodic movies under Lucas (even the PT) I have felt excited, anxious, shocked, saddened, and triumphant all in the same film as we follow the characters. We're pulling for them hoping that they make it. In Rian's Star Wars, I never get a chance to get excited. I never have a chance to get shocked or saddened or to feel triumphant. None of the development feels organic. It's a movie that feels like a collection of pre-determined destinations and ideas that are fixed, and then stories and characters are molded around them (even if it distorts them or sends them into a feedback loop). The feeling I experienced most during this film was disappointment, time after time after time. The Battle over D'Qar with exploding bombers, Rey's pseudo training, Rey's parentage, Finn's entire arc, all of Canto Bight. Snoke's ackground. The Hangar fight. Luke's battle with Kylo. The skimmer battle, each one somehow manages to under deliver. They were all things I was looking forward to seeing... until I saw them. Then all I could say was, "that's it?"

    For me TLJ was like going to a cook out and the guy on the grill giving you a Tofu Burger and insisting it's better than the Beef Burger that you actually came for.
     
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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    you and i had vastly different experiences of this movie. of all the movies (the PT leaves me completely 100% cold). with TLJ you got tofu, i got chicken. you can keep saying that i'm "extolling" Johnson and make sweeping statements like it's a good film but not a good story, and i will keep saying that i like the story Johnson chose to tell. i absolutely extol him for his visuals. i enjoyed the story, think parts of it are brilliant, but i also have my own nitpicks.

    i love the battle over D'Qar. i think it's thrilling and poignant, and it kicks off Poe's arc beautifully. i never gave a fig for Rey training (don't need it, didn't want it), i always believed Rey was a random (and feel like she should be), i definitely wanted a bit more from Finn, but i've made my peace with his journey and i love the ending and his determination to sacrifice himself (and then realizing it's not the answer). don't care about Snoke, hated him, cheered when he was killed. liked the hanger fight, LOVED the Crait battle (all of it, including Luke and Ren Ben). you say all of that underdelivered. i don't know what to tell you: i don't judge films based on delivery expectations (in fact, i try not to have expectations in the first place).

    which is not to say i'm never disappointed. i really didn't like what Johnson did with Hux in TLJ. not because he was a joke or used for comedic purposes, but because he took way too much crap from everyone and it's illogical to me why Ren wouldn't've killed him outright in the throne room just to get him out of his hair. not that i want Hux killed like that, but i do think their relationship changed so drastically from what it was prior to Snoke's death and i'm disappointed in that. also, i would have liked to have seen Ren's motivation for keeping Hux around stated more clearly.

    @RockyRoadHux: feel free to quibble, if you wish to. XD
     
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  8. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    And you are free to do so. I think you know I won't join you in that, but you can still do it. I don't fault you for praising him for things that are artistic choices that worked for you. I'm not sure why you're reacting negatively to "extolling" in this regard but if "praise" is less of an eye-poke to you, I'll use that instead.

    I'm not asking you to tell me anything, I'm just stating my opinion. For example: I didn't know what the nature of the battle was going to be a battle over D'Qar prior to the movie. All we are told is that there is going to be a stand off, and when I see it, it underwhelmed. The dialogue helped to under cut it's own tension. The incompetence of FO leadership is so intense it's painful to watch. The incredibly convenient debris pattern of the exploding bombers screams "plot necessity". For me it's a bad sequence. This (among the other things I named) are the reasons why I didn't think he told a good story (and I don't think I'm alone in that). However for you, he doesn't botch things you wanted to see, and the things he jettisons, changes, or minimizes were things that didn't matter to you. I can understand why you enjoyed TLJ. I'm not faulting you for liking what you like.

    I think he has Snoke tell you why he keeps Hux around. He (Hux) is somebody Kylo can manipulate and use. That was at least the in-movie reason I believed that Johnson was intending to provide. But I don't have a dog in the race here since I prefer TFA Hux to TLJ Hux by a country mile.
     
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    just by way of explanation: 1.) i'm an English major and the actual meaning of words matter to me; i choose them carefully. 2.) you continuously used the word extol (a word i would have never chosen in the first place), in a negative fashion. i absolutely own everything i actually say, so i prefer other people not put words in my mouth ~ especially words that, by connotation, change the literal meaning of what i'm saying. i did not "extol" Johnson's writing. i said i liked it (some parts more than others). to me there's an ocean of difference between those things.

    when i want to hyperbolize about Star Wars, i will. but i doubt anybody likes other people foisting hyperbolies on them. : D

    i get what you're saying, but to me, a battle is not a story. Poe losing the fleet is a story. you didn't like the way that was executed and that's fine, but that's just window dressing. fair enough to not like a house for its curtains, we each have our own hopes and dreams, but tactics or special effects are never going to make or break anything for me.

    it's like people complaining about the choreography in the throne room. nitpick it all you want, but to me, what matters is the impression, the feeling, and the marvel of Rey and Ren Ben fighting together against the guards. that's the story. not whether guard number 5 conveniently isn't doing anything with his right arm while Rey drops her saber to undercut him. i hope i never am so critical of anything that i can't just enjoy fun stuff because it's not 100% technically on point.

    right, it's the in-movie reason that we heard an hour prior. it works sufficiently, but it's not very interesting to me. to me there's a missed opportunity to better demonstrate that Hux is the right cur for the job. and frankly, though i know others would argue, other than stopping to grandstand with Poe, Hux actually does everything right in TLJ. if Ren would have actually listened to him, they would have finished the Resistance on Crait.
     
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  10. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    You know Rey and Kylo fighting together had nothing to do with the progression of the story from TFA to TLJ. Not when Rey used the force to defend herself against Kylo twice in TFA. Was it beautiful that Rey did more to help Kylo than herself, her friend or the Resistance?

    MOD EDIT
     
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  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Force Attuned

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    It was a progression of both of their character arcs and the bond that they formed. Rey thought she could bring Kylo back to the light. Kylo thought he could bring Rey to his side. The fight only reinforced those feelings until each of them were turned down by each other.
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Ok wait a minute...
    ...to clarify, this was our starting point. My questions were derived directly from this statement:

    My use of "extol" in reference to this doesn't feel like an unfair characterization, nor an effort to put words in your mouth. You literally started the phrase with "Bravo". My actual next comment was this:

    I can appreciate that words matter to you. Logic and reason matter to me which require that I put a premium on word selection. Because a change in just a few words in a phrase can be the difference between a logically tenable statement and one that can't be defended. It's the difference between:

    But here it seems like you are extolling Rian for writing the characters with room to still grow
    But here you are extolling Rian for writing the characters with room to still grow

    There's a world of difference between these too. My only other use of extol is in saying this:

    This is negative? Acknowledging that, even though I don't like the film, there are artistic choices Rian makes for which I can understand him being extolled is a negative? That doesn't track for me. It's also odd that you're asking that others not put words in your mouth while you are assigning your thoughts to my actions in the same breath. I wasn't using the word extol negatively. It certainly appears you received it that way which is way I offered to use "praise" in it's place. Not because it has a different meaning (they are synonyms) but because I was making an effort to avoid needlessly offending. But that's an effort that has to go both ways.
     
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  13. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order, Then Pie
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    hahaha ~ i said bravo to him for giving me something to think about.
    that's still not extolling him from where i am sitting.

    definition of extol: praise enthusiastically, go into raptures about/over, wax lyrical about, sing the praises of, praise to the skies, heap praise on, eulogize, rhapsodize over, rave about, enthuse about/over, gush about/over, throw bouquets at, express delight over, acclaim, etc.

    definition of bravo: used to express approval when a performer or other person has done something well.
    expressing approval and rhapsodizing are two very different things and i would use them very differently.
    all that said, i accept that you had not intended to use extol as a negative, nor were trying to characterize my phrasing in some negative fashion.
    i apologize if i caused offense in my own uncertain bristling. : D
     
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  14. Fuzzball

    Fuzzball Rebel Official

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    [​IMG]

    Just thought I would add a definition that we can all agree on. :p

    This may or may not have happened to me whilst browsing the Cantina. :oops:
     
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  15. RockyRoadHux

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    Nah... let's not go down this road again ;p
    giphy (1).gif
     
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  16. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel General

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    Mixed is how I felt after leaving the theater and it's part of why i was so disappointed at the time. TLJ landed to critical acclaim and the trailers made it look excellent but that was being tempered by a few voices saying it was going to shock and annoy a lot of the fanbase. I was ready to have my head blown off one way or the other, to be thrilled or offended, but for it to at least affect me one way or the other deeply and to have a lot of shocks and big moments.

    Then I go see it and it just kind of floats by light heartedly with an odd tone, strongly emphasising the new galactic war that hasn't been given much context and ends with more of a sigh than a crescendo and I walk out feeling deflated and confused. I hated it at the time for being so mediocre Then when it came out on blu ray I watched it alone in the dark and enjoyed it without any expectation. But by this point I still feel very indifferent.

    Much like the prequels when I play the film and the big moments out in my head it seems thrilling, deep and epic, but when I actually sit down and watch the film as a whole i can't help but feel underwhelmed.
     
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi Commander

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    To be totally honest, while I enjoyed a lot of what TLJ had to offer, I was probably overly supportive of it in a kneejerk reaction to the heavy criticism of it. I thought it was mostly okay, but I had some issues with it too.

    And I still have issues with it, but subsequent viewings have made me appreciate parts of it that I hadn't previously liked (particularly the Crait battle). I still have problems with it, especially the D'Qar segment, so I guess it's safe to say I still feel mixed.

    Regarding @Rayjefury 's claim that characters have no challenge to overcome, and that any challenges in IX will be "fabricated"- I totally get what you mean, but I'm not sure there's no way out. It's become almost cliche to say that TLJ is a movie about "failure", and by the end of the movie characters do in some way redeem themselves. Rey uses the force, Poe learns to not be such a hothead, Finn learns that he has value. But while they've all learned their flaws, I'm not sure we've necessarily seen them put that information to use and redeem themselves much through action yet. How will Rey carry on the Jedi tradition, knowing both their flaws and the reasons they were needed? How will Poe act as a squadron leader now? What role will Finn choose to take on in the Resistance?

    Then of course, the looming thread of the First Order and Kylo Ren present an obvious threat to the characters that is pretty far from contrived- though I understand how outside of Rey, this isn't really much of a personal threat.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Maybe a better word choice on my part would have been to use "generated". Though my point remains the same. If the challenge that Finn faces in EPIX is picking what job function he does in the Resistance, it will easily be the worst story arc ever IMO. As for Rey and Poe, well she used the Force in TFA, and Poe being a hot head seemed like a new wrinkle for plot convenience in TLJ, I'm not sure that anything from TLJ was meant to or can be carried forward and developed into the central challenge to the characters. I doubt we even see the genesis of the central challenge to the characters, it will be something that happens in the time gap which we infer from dialogue to save bandwidth.
     
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  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi Commander

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    I guess it all depends on how you see it, but just to clarify @Rayjefury, I think some of these can be deeper if you're personally willing to look past the surface level.

    For example, I don't mean that Finn will be "picking what job function he does in the Resistance", but rather finding purpose within it. I guess those are two sides of the same coin, but I find the latter to not only be more compelling but as you'd say, "generated" already in TLJ.
     
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  20. Mortis

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    Still hoping for a stormtrooper rebellion lead by Finn.
     
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