THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I think that's a good point, but try and get into his head at that moment- at that point, it's reasonable enough to think that these subversions come from an attempt to tell a more surprising story rather than to squash fanboy dreams. I don't see any malice in that. We live in a world in which it's so tough to tell a multipart story without fan speculation ruining it (just look at Game of Thrones or Westworld). RJ managed, on some accounts, to actually do the impossible.

Granted, part of that may be because many of his choices were what some fans didn't necessarily want.

But I guess it all depends on what lens you look through. Where some might see some impish vision of RJ trying to do nothing more than be some trickster god director, I see someone who actually tried to fight the current pop culture storytelling pitfalls of the day.

So you want him to stop talking about his own film?...

I mean, not even people who dislike the movie have stopped doing so, seven months later.

I don't know man. I get you maybe don't love him, but maybe just try to not follow his headlines and you'll be in a happier place.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed TLJ, I know there are many that do. However, since you're in the hate thread, you're not going to get a whole lot of others that share you're sentiment. We're all still SW fans, at least I think even my fellow "haters" still love the franchise and are just disappointed by TLJ, so there is hope that we'll all be happier with things in the near future. I'm still hoping that I end up loving Ep. IX.

Maybe not stop talking about his own film in general, but maybe just stop responding to every little thing. He can't stop Bob Smith from North Dakota from tweeting him about much he hated his movie, but he can stop responding. I would love to not see news about him, but it's almost become unavoidable. I see all the SW related stuff online, work with many people who are into SW and keep up on news so they keep me informed and I'm married to a SW nerd who also follows all the news. So unless, I throw my phone and laptop away, quit my job and get divorced and then go live in a cave, I'm going to continue to get all the SW and RJ headlines. And no, I'm not throwing away my laptop and phone and living in isolation-even though some of you would probably prefer that I go away.

 

You ar correct. It isn't. Neither is misrepresenting what I said a few days ago, and then when I asked for an apology I get ignored. So why would anyone here treat you in a civil manner when you yourself can't treat others in that same way?

I do appreciate what RJ said. It is all about context. Using a quote from 15 years ago isn't necessarily silly. But as he himself mentioned, he as talking about a specific film or type of film, and he's not the same person nor was he making (or attempting to make) the same type of film.

Again, I've said it before, but there are things that I like in the film and things that do work. Personally it should have been fine, if not great, without Canto Bight, without Holdo acting like an ass, and with a bit more exposition as to why Luke has changed in character (I can't just accept it has been 30 years nor can I easily accept he is upset due to his failure with Ben). But that's just me.

 

Sounds like #firstworldproblems to me.

Sorry you're so horribly inconvenienced as to have this creator's discussions on his movie be shoved down your throat A Clockwork Orange-style.

 

Is there a language barrier here, or are you trying to stay hostile? I hear all about the SW/RJ news, look most of it up to see for myself and form an opinion. You don't have to like the opinion that I've formed, but don't act like I'm doing something wrong by not agreeing with you. You liked TLJ and think RJ is wonderful, fine, great, enjoy. Don't run into a thread that you obviously disagree with and get mad when people post an opinion that doesn't line up with yours.

 

I think there are different approaches, as well as ideologies to, as you say "rooting against the franchise". I don't think malice is the intent, let me explain.

I'm not saying I'm currently part of these ways of thinking, but I do understand them and sympathize with them in some ways.

Some fans are hoping the ST to fail, especially episode 9 (because both others have been financial successes, it's financial failure would be the only indicator that the ST is not enjoyed by most fans and confirm their belief, unsubstantiated by hard fact, that many ticket sales were earned by fans who now hate the current direction), because if it falls to Solo numbers, it will be undeniable to Disney that their attempt with the ST has gone off the tracks and maybe they retcon, de-canonize or find some other way to fix the issues in the ST. Without a huge failure, those who are not liking the ST and TLJ are always going to be dismissed as a "vocal minority" or basically an unsubstantial portion of the fan base. To be pitied if not ignored. I think many of the "haters" can could possibly walk away from the franchise. They're hanging on for now hoping to fall back in love again.

Then, some fans have simply lost interest in the ST (and for some, to some extent SW as a whole) and don't care about box office results, they're just not invested in the ST. Even as they're not invested, they understand that the events from the ST will have an impact on all future installments of future SW movies (essentially everything from not all will carry a ST taint). That's not a pleasant thought, and it means everything we've invested into the franchise is a waste (because the ST has in some views redefined the OT into something they don't like, so it not only stretches out into the future, but claws back the past), because they no longer get anything that won't have the influence from TLJ moving forward. I think for many, this means SW simply is downgraded to any old franchise. Doesn't mean they won't watch another one again, but the fanaticism that had them watching it 3 times opening weekend is gone. They may even, gasp, skip out entirely (solo).

I think the glee you see at failure to SW movies isn't so much that those fans don't want any more SW, but that they understand Disney has control and money up the wazoo, plus incentive to see their investment to succeed financially, so they feel safe that movies won't dry up, they just hope the direction changes to something that they can enjoy. I don't think these fans who dislike the ST don't want the fans who like the ST to switch spots with them. What they want is for all fans to mostly be on the same page, be happy with movies that come out after the ST and at least agree on those parts that the writers ect. failed on.

I can honestly say I've gone through almost all those sentiments to different degrees (sometimes surprising myself and course correcting ect...) expressed above at one point or another. Sometimes I've moved on only to find myself return weeks or months later. Which is why I think there is inconsistency in many posts from fans who dislike TLJ and the ST by extension.

I don't know if having the entirety of the fan base to mostly agree is even achievable at this point. Some will say that they already do (dismissing the "backlash" as vocal minority) but that only serves to incense and encourage those who think the backlash is large to double down on wanting IX to fail. So some of those fans who still feel invested enough will try and form boycotts and such, but those will only succeed if they were right to begin with, because obviously if you liked TLJ you'll never agree to a boycott.

To wrap up, the fans who are wishing for the ST to fail are doing so with the belief that the majority (usually based on what they see and hear around them) of the fan base doesn't like the ST. In a way, they see themselves as protectors of the SW brand. Because if (give me this and follow along please ) half or more of the fan base truly doesn't like the ST and TLJ, then SW is already sinking, the "lovers" just don't know it yet (and therefor by continuing with your love of the ST, the lovers are actually hurting SW.... I know there's a great deal of vanity in this way of thinking, but if it's right, then it's true... and that's what keeps them holding on to their rhetoric/belief). By being pro-active and voicing the dislike of the ST, SW can change direction with the majority of fans finally being listened to. It's not about fan service, as many say (having Luke be godlike and such, or impeccable) but about respecting the characters (in their view). I think the hope would be that most fans who liked the ST would come aboard with the new story that would be told. They'd join the "majority" of fans who disliked the ST and all would be great again.

Currently I don't see any solutions. I think the backlash is bigger than some think it is, even though I have no facts to back it up. In that sense I'm worried about SW moving forward. However, I don't count myself as someone who will actively try and sabotage IX, I figure if it is as I fear, that will happen naturally, no movement to boycott will be necessary. I see some redeemable avenues that could come to be in IX and bring the ST together (for me), and appease many fans and somewhat unite the SW fan base once more. I don't expect my head canon (or "better" versions) to come to be, but if I can imagine a way to accept the ST with my limited imagination, it gives me hope that the creative minds in charge of SW can possibly find a way to get me back on board, as well as other fans.

 

There definitely are different camps when it comes to Star Wars moving forward. You have those who are dedicated to what came before this new trilogy, and anything that steps on that is blasphemy. What was done to Luke was blasphemy. Then you have those who want to see a great protagonist in Rey, but she hasn't been it so far. TLJ was the movie to explore Luke, Rey, Kylo, and Finn. Instead we got Rian making attempts for Rey and Kylo to have conversations which minimized the significance of the other characters.

Attempts to understand Kylo aren't working, and they shouldn't. No one likes a sucker. This ambiguity only makes him appear to be softer. You cannot do terrible things and look for forgiveness. That's a sucker, and suckers don't make interesting villains. He needs to be 100% dedicated to the cause for power, and have him actually appear to play the part. Show Kylo has some intelligence, and is a strategist, but stop the one foot in one foot out scenario. It's taken away from everyone else. Including Kylo.

 

I appreciate the response, and I can definitely testify to it- I've noticed how you've clearly been on both sides of the aisle before. And I totally respect that- clearly you're thinking things through.

And to be honest, I can totally see where you're coming from. I often feel like a bit of a hypocrite sometimes, because while I do feel like it is toxic to root against the films in any capacity, I find myself pretty openly doing that exact same thing against EA's games. Or, at least, I'd love to have good games even if they were from EA, but with their track record I personally feel like it's time their license was revoked. So, as much as I disagree with those who feel the same way about the movies, I guess I can see the logic there.

 

This is a very bizarre personal attack against me since this was my last interaction with you on this thread:

As I stated before please feel free to exchange ideas about the topics being discussed. The reply and the negative rating you gave me for simply having an opinion is unjust after our last interaction.

 

I only have anecdotal evidence, but it does appear to be larger than I thought back in December/January.

I teach high school in a minority-majority school district. 85% of my students are hispanic, and when we talked about the film after Xmas break not a single one thought it was "great." Some thought it was okay, but I was struck that the only ones who felt strongly about it had negative opinions. The term "mary sue" was thrown around quite often when discussing Rey. Much to my chagrin as I like the character.

In May I spoke with a fellow geek teacher on campus who teaches English. He thought the film was poor. At the same time I spoke to an old friend (actually three) and all three said they didn't like it, two of whom are minorities and female. So that's when I watched it critically and yeah, my opinion changed. According to some around here I just followed the crowd (they know who they are but according to one of them I'm too stupid to make up my own mind).

Last week I had lunch with a former student who just graduated from a prestigious art school in the midwest. She is a Latina and HUGE fan of the series. She's also an unabashed SJW. Her own words were "I can't relate to Rey... She's the worst example of a Mary Sue I've seen."

For a while there I thought the RT score was just rubbish, but there is no doubt in my ind the backlash is bigger than some think (or will admit to). Personally I just hope IX can repair the damage, at least somewhat. I myself am looking forward to the live action series, the new anime by Dave Filoni and the possibility of an ObiWan film on streaming.

 

I think maybe a healthy portion fancy themselves as rebels, taking on an evil empire, in order to restore a once great society.

 

Actually it was pretty logical. ON page 213 you said I wasn't smart enough to make up my own mind about the film and was just following the crowd. If that is civil discourse then I'm unaware of what civil discourse is. I asked for an apology and never received one. Thus I said you aren't one to talk about civil discourse. I'll ignore you from now on and you can feel free to do the same.

 

Here's what I said...

I never said anything about your intelligence. You liked the film and your friends influenced you to look again and it changed your opinion. That's the story you told. I have apologized for offending you.

I'll apologize again for offending your intelligence.

 

Exactly. It's counter productive at best. The man baby comments, the fanboys tears stuff, the comments about Star Wars not needing more white males (coming from a white male)all of it. What good does it do? It seems silly and petty. People are going to troll you on twitter when you are a public figure. Ignore the idiots out there. Take the ones with genuine criticism and thank them for watching the film and apologize for them not enjoying it. Basically what Ron Howard has done. Heck, RJ and the lot of them at LFL could learn a lot from Howard.

 

People are a lot less hostile towards the prequel trilogy these days and I suspect people will move on to the next thing as more films are released. Plus, most people liked TLJ. I expect JJ to make something that's a little more fan service that should help with some of the outraged. There were people who really hated TFA. That group was smaller than the group that hates TLJ, but based on what I read online many of the people hated TFA hated TLJ.

 

Yes, thank you. That's what I've said over and over, but it keeps getting twisted around for some reason. Yes, Ron Howard has been a total professional and there are a few who could take some lessons from him.

 

Well, that handful of TLJ "haters" are a bit daft aren't they. The entire throne room scene and fight in RotJ are quite clear.