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SPOILER THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    156 vote(s)
    56.1%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    124 vote(s)
    44.6%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    167 vote(s)
    60.1%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    143 vote(s)
    51.4%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    101 vote(s)
    36.3%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    96 vote(s)
    34.5%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    139 vote(s)
    50.0%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    183 vote(s)
    65.8%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    121 vote(s)
    43.5%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    185 vote(s)
    66.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Commander

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    Wow. I think I need to read it again. I dont recall that whole sequence. Although it doesnt say she dropped him off.

    I did read the Aftermath books. By the way 2nd and 3rd are far better. There is one sequence in the book where she senses something reaching out for Ben in the womb. We can assume it is Snoke. We will have to wait for more content if Leia explained her fears to Luke. Did she sense because he was her son and Luke didnt sense it until it was to late.
     
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  2. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    Everything in TFA explains Luke from the flashback scene and forward. It does not explain how Luke got to the flashback scene where he makes such an uncharacteristic move by walking into his sleeping nephews room in the middle of the night wearing a weapon, reads his mind against his will, then draws and ignites his lightsaber with thoughts of murder bubbling in his mind.

    That's my issue, I don't see anyone doing that, unless there's a well thought out story as to why. I'm no hero, but even I wouldn't have the stupidity to do what Luke did in that same situation. I don't know anyone who would do that, and I don't know many heroes. To me, the action Luke takes by walking into Ben's room, that's the action of a villain. If that's the route they want to go, that's fine, but that's something that definitely needs explaining.

    If they came out with a solid story as to why he made that decision that didn't feel way off, the rest could possibly work. But Mark had to write that part out himself, because the story group and RJ hadn't thought that out and as far as I know, never have.

    Let me ask you this. Would you walk into your nephews room while he's sleeping, armed with a weapon (knife, gun, whatever) snoop through his drawers quietly, read his diary or journal, then judge him on the spot and consider killing him, so far as to loom over him in his bed while sleeping, pulling out your weapon and either cocking back the hammer, or pulling the knife back and drawing breath readying to strike? This doesn't sound like the actions of a sane person, let alone anyone remotely good. It doesn't work for me at all, in any way.

    Maybe my problem is that I see Luke as more then myself or my acquaintances, not less. For me he's a person who's better then the average, and for me the average wouldn't do what he does, so it falls short and is unbelievable when he does it. Never has his portrayal showed him as less then the average person. Average at times (power converters), but not less than.

    Understand, I'm not asking you to hate TLJ or even that particular scene. Maybe you viewed Luke differently then I did, or maybe you were able to fill in story that allowed you to see Luke go there (made head canon that Ben had attacked or killed a student, ect...). However you did it, you managed to see Luke in that moment and rationalize it in some way. I couldn't and still can't. I needed that moment before the flashback to have me believe he'd do that, otherwise that whole scenario doesn't make any sense. I guess all I hope is the understanding that I needed a little more history on Luke to believe that flashback scene.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 11, 2018 at 7:54 PM ---
    This might come off as trolling, but it's meant in jest, and I wouldn't post it if it wasn't in this particular thread. So if you love TLJ, you'll need thicker skin ahead lol... you've been warned haha.

    TLJ may very well change the way future SW movies are made, as they may never make one like this again haha. I could even say no SW movie has evoked such strong emotion from its audience, even if half that emotion was the most hate many of those fans have ever felt toward a movie. So it may depend on what criteria one would value to call it "greatest". If it's simply emotion, positive or negative not factoring in, then maybe they have a point. ;)
     
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  3. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Commander

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    Seems like you believe he went into the room intent on murdering Ben. I dont believe that at all. I think it is relatively clear he suspected something. So he went in to see him and felt the dark side. Hell maybe what was going on in Ben's dreams gave off some dark side vibe. Dont know. I dont go into every film needing to know every step that gets someone to a place. Luke went into his room to check on him for some reason and not with the intent to murder like you seem to believe.

    Why does Luke have his lightsaber with him. Well have we ever seen Jedi not having lightsaber on them at all times in the series. Now you want in this case for him to not have it clipped to his belt.
     
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  4. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi Commander

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    Yeah, I get what @Sparafucile is saying, but I think that bridge between ROTJ Luke and "Standing Over Kylo" Luke is easily enough explained by him saying he sensed the darkness in Kylo. People treat this like it's some sort of insidious pre-meditated murder, but I think that it's pretty clear that it was a tragic reaction instead. For instance, when a parent yells at their child for some innocuous thing, and feels bad later.

    And of course, most parents probably haven't ever pulled out a lightsaber on their child. I'd also wager most never felt a festering and growing power of the dark side in them, either, so it balances out well enough.

    And, finally, the biggest area of note here- Luke stops when he realizes what he's doing. If he truly wanted to kill Ben, he would have. He wasn't stopped by Ben's skill, but his own compassionate hesitation and introspection.
     
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  5. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    And you are MORE than welcome to feel that way. But objectively it is not better than A New Hope. It will not effect film making the way A New Hope did. It will not effect the way films are released and will not effect films the way A New Hope did. A New Hope inspired a generation of film makers, changed Hollywood and was nominated for what, about 10 Oscars and won six?

    The editing in the throne room is piss poor. How does the guy fighting Rey have two weapons and then suddenly he has only one, simply to allow her to win? That's poor editing. At an earlier point she was surrounded by four guards only to suddenly have two disappear. Piss poor editing.

    If you like it, great dude. Enjoy it. Go hang out and talk about how great it is with those who enjoy it. I'm not sure what you think you'll achieve hanging out in the thread for those who hate it. Do you think you are going to convert us? Change our minds? I'm truly curious as to what you think you are going to achieve here.
     
    #4425 Darth Wardawg, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:58 PM
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 11:08 PM
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  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Force Sensitive

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    The idea that a film is "objectively better" than another film is a little strange. These are pieces of art and some people like some pieces of art better than others. The question wasn't whether TLJ effected film making. Most of the prequels weren't good, but the use of CGI in those films effected film making more than anything in TLJ. That doesn't mean they're better films.
     
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  7. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Way more award nominations for ANH, changed film making forever, inspired a generation and is the reason we are all here. TLJ... not so much. Yeah, objectively better. Since some pro-TLJ wanna talk about how much money TLJ made, ANH blows it away. And, when your film has this in it... It sucks. Objectively. Completely. Totally...

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Force Sensitive

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    Imagine complaining about hyperbole and then making a claim that A New Hope is "objectively" the best Star Wars film.

    ob·jec·tive·ly
    əbˈjektivlē,äbˈjektivlē/
    adverb
    1. in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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  10. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I'm not changing your mind, and you aren't changing mine.
     
  11. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    And that's why you two will stop interacting for a little bit. Okay?
     
  12. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I edited my original response. It was far harsher than that.
     
  13. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    Yeah I know. I can see that.
     
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  14. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    And that's the major problem I see with this film. Like how the heck could he NOT have a backstory for Luke? He should have realized "wow, people are going to be pissed if I don't have all my ducks in a row." Instead it feels like he half-assed it. Not just with Luke, but with Rose, with Holdo, with a ton of things. It is as if he just took version 2 of the scripts and said, yeah, that's good enough.
     
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  15. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Force Sensitive

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    That's pretty much Luke says about the entire show down. He has seen the darkness growing and it was worse than he possibly imagined.

    It's truly one of the most heartbreaking moments in the Skywalker Saga. It's one of those "what if" moments. What if Mace Windu killed Palpatine? What if Luke killed Ben Solo?
     
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  16. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Rebel Official

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    Me too.
    If we were to start playing "demand the explanation" then surely logic would require an explanation why Luke wouldn't have had difficulty dealing with a known weakness of his!

    We know late-age-trainees like the Skywalkers struggle with impulse and attachment to loved ones.
    It's a major theme and a classic point of leverage for turning Jedi.

    We know these trilogies are presenting this conundrum in a way that is the same but different.
    Anakin was seduced this way (and nearly took his son with him) and here we are now with a protagonist looking for attachment everywhere while the antagonist tries desperately to destroy all of his.

    On the upside at least Luke grew enough to hold back before resorting to violence this time.
    Progress?
    It's the difference between tempted to murder and attempted murder!
    It's also kinda funny how both Hux and Luke shared a moment in common - drawing weapons on Kylo then changing their minds.
    yes.gif
    I think your post may have been misread.

    I see that people on all sides have been unfairly targeted and condescended to but I don't understand why people internalize criticism toward flawed arguments or flawed people if you don't actually share them.

    Idiots who mistakenly share conclusions are not allies - there's no reason to carry their baggage!
    I'm sure these options were considered.
    I think the path kept coming back to what they thought would create the most drama.

    The choice they went with did lead to lots of drama with Rey's antagonism toward Failed Luke and a point of connection with Kylo - enough empathy to claim her saber and inspire a turn attempt.
    Good point.
    I love stories dealing with why people with good intentions do bad things.

    The "being armed" criticism I've always written off as circumstantial but I imagine Luke knew he was crossing a line with the mind probe otherwise he wouldn't be there like that. I'm sure it would be easy to rationalize as "proactive defense" but we know that's a classic Jedi error!

    These movies deal a lot with temptation - maybe this is a new weakness that Older Luke succumbs to?
    Naughty sneaky Luke.

    edit:grammar/gif
     
    #4436 Moral Hazard, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:35 AM
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 12:52 AM
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  17. HarryShoulders

    HarryShoulders Rebel General

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    I get they did it for drama, but it is not within the appropriate framework set-up from TFA and TFA novel. It is not a stretch to assume Leia, talked about her reservations of Ben to Luke prior to the fallout. I have to say, when I made mistakes in my youth, I learned from them - not to do them again :D. I know others have said it 1000s of times, but that's true to me too. If anything, I think with age you get more stubborn than impulsive. You also tend to mellow out with age and again thinking of myself, I'm less hasty when doing things now. Luke failing is ok, but Luke's first choice to be impulsive is not okay with me. It's kind of like "well I tried, and I couldn't figure this out, so time to die." What would you do with a child or nephew addicted to drugs? You would initially try hard to stop them or bring them back - why waste and ally, especially with the lessons learned from Yoda and Ben.

    However, if Luke felt his family was in danger or killed when he peaked in his mind - I could see him being impulsive with rage - if he learned an unbelievable truth.
     
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  18. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    It would have been interesting if we could have taken a poll before TLJ to see if people thought Luke was capable of contemplating murder. I honestly think that Rian going for a dark movie and essentially letting you know that what we saw would be shocking suggests that the Luke in TLJ that some people are saying is still in alignment with the Luke of ROTJ is probably not true. There is no shock factor if that's the case. Surely people can evolve (so I'm not saying he can't change) but evolution usually builds on a base model.

    Whether Luke seems believable to your or not in the actions he takes in the hut seems secondary to the question, should he have ever arrived at this point based on what we know? Now if you are dead set on telling this story (as it seems he was), if the symbol of goodness and loyalty and belief in the goodness of others must be sacrificed on the altar of "Kylo Empathy", then at least use what we last saw about Luke to be the catalyst.

    If Luke precipitated Kylo's turn by refusing to see the threat because he believed in people, THAT is in alignment with what we saw in the OT (it would also be in alignment with what we saw in the PT with Qui Gon and Obi Wan concerning Anakin). Luke didn't give up on his father, so it would make sense that he might look past Kylo's emerging flaws in favor of seeing what was good in him until it was too late.

    Of course I still don't think broken Luke would have been more interesting than engaged Master Luke, or that we needed to feel empathy for Kylo.
     
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  19. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I keep thinking about the characters in this film and comparing them to the characters in Rebels (I just binged through all four seasons, as the wife had only seen a few episodes). We both remarked about how well done the character were. I had tears in the finale when Ezra leaves and definitely when Ahsoka shows up. I can't imagine feeling the same about Rose, Finn, Rey. The characters are just not well written, in my opinion.

    Rose? Blah. Finn? Missed opportunities. Rey? Mary Sue. No growth.

    Hopefully JJ and Chris can rescue the mess that Ruin created, but I seriously doubt it. I guess we will find out in about 17 months.
     
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  20. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    I really hope we’re above childish playground name calling here
     
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