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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

?

Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    170 vote(s)
    56.3%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    134 vote(s)
    44.4%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    181 vote(s)
    59.9%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    159 vote(s)
    52.6%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    114 vote(s)
    37.7%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    107 vote(s)
    35.4%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    154 vote(s)
    51.0%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    196 vote(s)
    64.9%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    132 vote(s)
    43.7%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    203 vote(s)
    67.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Force Sensitive

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    I'm not ignoring the rest of the post, but to me the force ghost/Holdo stuff is on the nit-picky side. Now as far as was it worth it? Well, it saves what's left of the shuttles attempting to escape. Essentially the spark of the rebellion survives because of Holdo's sacrifice and Hux's incompetence in ignoring what she was doing in the first place.
     
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  2. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Obi Wan sat on a log so that constitutes interaction with the world? This seems like an argument made in extremely bad faith. Obi Wan also appeared to walk on the ground - does that constitute interaction with the world? Does anyone realistically believe that because Obi Wan sat on a log that it stands to reason Yoda could also call down Lightning to strike a tree?

    1. Non sequitur, this is not about the timing of Luke's first confrontation, it's a statement about training protocols for FS
    2. Luke received at least some training (from both Obi Wan and Yoda), he was not a Jedi when he fought Vader the 1st time, we all saw the results
    3. Luke continued to receive training after his 1st confrontation with Vader - my point stands

    No, a Hyperspace attack has never been done before. A Hammerhead Corvette pushing one SD into another is not a Capital Ship ramming another Flag Ship at Hyperspace. The question wasn't that you NEED to see it before for it to work, the question is WHY you haven't seen it before. There could be a reasonable answer as to why (as I said, I can think of a Physics reason why we haven't, but the Physics arguments don't carry much weight in the GFFA) but the movie doesn't provide one. The line of questioning as to why there is no in-movie explanation is legit, even if it's not a hill I personally plan to die on.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 15, 2018 ---
    I have a SERIOUS problem with Rose being Finn's conscience. He has one that directs his path in TFA and starts his journey. He didn't need a surrogate moral compass in TFA to decide he wasn't going to kill for the FO, but Rian imagines that Finn can't draw from his own life experience to take the pedestrian step to join the Resistance. He must be lectured to by Rose. Finn's arc in TLJ is just bad.

    Here is a question I often pose to posters who say his arc was good:

    Finn wants to run at first, finds something to fight for, and goes on a mission for the Resistance. Which movie am I talking about?
     
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  3. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    He’s also struggled with the darkside within him to a degree similar to his father. This is something that is also established throughout the OT. That gives it precedence and so wouldn’t be a violation of any internal consistency.
    Luke’s journey to becoming a Jedi Master is also the most unorthodox we’ve been presented with. He’s the oldest apprentice we’ve ever seen and the recipient of the least amount of formal training. He didn’t undergo the emotional conditioning that other masters did. Yoda specifically expressed his concerns with this in ESB. He feared the worst for Luke and those fears were ultimately justified. That gives it precedence and so also wouldn’t be a violation of any internal consistency.
    Luke most definitely did not receive “extensive” lightsaber training. Obi-Wan gave him ‘one’ lesson and, as far as what was shown on screen, nothing else. The rest he appears to have worked out on his own. That gives it precedence and so again wouldn’t be a violation of any internal consistency.
    Well, Obi-Wan sits on a log just for funzies in ROTJ. So they definitely can, but they generally don’t. When a state of being is equated to “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”, basic ‘physical interaction’ shouldn’t be considered far beyond what’s reasonably achievable. Obi-Wan only told Luke he couldn’t “interfere” with respect to confronting Vader specifically. That’s the only limitation we’ve been given to my knowledge.

    ‘Controlling the weather’ sure as hell is unprecedented though, but it isn’t strictly a violation of any pre-established continuity. It’s just an addition to it. It’s no different than ESB expanding the idea of the Force by introducing psychokinesis or precognition.
    Yeah, that’s a terrific question . . . for George Lucas. If hyper-drives have existed for as long as they seem to have, then certainly someone would have sussed out how to weaponize them before now, yeah? That’s an issue that’s been there since day one. TLJ just hung a lampshade on it.
    The only constraints I know about hyperspace jumping is that you need precise calculations in order to NOT run into things. Otherwise, why exactly couldn’t you just point your ship in a direction and hit ‘go’? That gives it precedence and so, once again, wouldn’t be a violation of any internal consistency.

    To be clear, I’m not saying any of these elements are terrific amazing additions that absolutely needed to be included and everyone should unquestionably love and revere them. Only that they don’t directly contradict what’s previously been established.

    You can argue that they don’t agree with the ‘spirit’ of what came before - that they’re incompatible with your interpretation of what Star Wars is, but that’s not the same thing. That’s an opinion. That’s what’s true for you and not necessarily what's true for others that have a separate interpretation.

    Anyway, that’s also just MY interpretation. I could be (and often am) wrong.
     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    No, it doesn't work to say that's a terrific question for George Lucas. Rian Johnson created the maneuver, so Rian Johnson created the plot hole.
     
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  5. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    True - and the attitude and prescriptive criteria of the audience I guess!
    I think most people/characters are complex and can swing multiple ways in extreme circumstances.
    I'm sure there are many people with goodness as a core value unfortunately stuck in prison having been judged for the single worst mistake they've made in their lives!
    Like it or not, I think the idea was an honest attempt to logically follow from the ideologies and perceptions of Lucas and his influencers.

    heros journey.png
    hero's journey 2.png

    Rian said he started with Luke's story by exploring how he could be in the circumstances TFA left him.
    He went on to examine Campbell's work and the hero's journey in classic epics like King Arthur and Beowulf and drew on motifs that suggest after the optimism of youth the older hero's narrative often takes a darker turn where they often struggle with familial disputes and personal tragedy.

    Having fought and overcome powerful foes the aging hero's battle often focuses on personal struggles - I am my worst enemy etc.
    Ha, I like it! :D

    FWIW I came across an interesting concept this week after backtracking a link from a post from @Shadowblade .
    It was about how the 7 questions of narrative drama applied to TLJ and the conflict between character's wants and needs.
    If we view each main TLJ journey/character arc through a lens of other characters enabling influences it can look like this:

    character conflicts.gif

    The differences between Finn's arcs in 7 and 8 become more reasonable when we look at who/what he's fighting for:

    7 questions of narrative drama.png

    edit: grammar, links, twitter pics
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
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  6. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel General

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    Alright, I know I’m addressing responses from over a week ago, but a lot of real-world hurdles got in the way.

    I appreciate the compliment. Honestly, Star Wars is one of the only topics where I can start out typing something simple, and then escalate it to a borderline essay in a few seconds. I guess with how often I discuss these points on other forums, I'm now able to essentially recite my biggest grievances from memory...largely because I see the same poor defenses and inexplicable assumptions being used for the ST everywhere I look.

    I think the reason that the PT and later EU harmonized well with the OT, even if the quality didn't always matched, was because of the sheer ambition and creativity showcased through both. You saw multiple eras, characters, plotlines and conflicts being sprung from the boundless imagination of so many creators, all of which trying their hardest to add as much original and creative content to the universe as possible.

    It's only recently, with the current films and lackluster new canon, that this precedent for creativity and boldness has all but disappeared.

    Rebels was never going to be on-par with Clone Wars by virtue of what it was, and the circumstances surrounding it. Many forget that Rebels started production almost immediately after the cancellation of TCW, so it was essentially being shoe-horned onto the air by Disney just so they could have some Star Wars-related content on Disney XD as hastily as possible. That in itself prevents the show from having the kind of exhaustive planning, detail, and broad variety in storylines and characters that TCW had, forcing the focus of Rebels to be me constrained and streamlined to a few main characters. The subject matter of the also prevents it from having A LOT of the galaxy-shattering grandeur and ambitious scenarios TCW did: it takes place during the non-war Dark Times era before ANH, so you can't really have a wealth of drastic events and galaxy-wide calamity take place before the Galactic Civil War has really taken shape. The impact and scope of the story has to be restrained to affect just the small slew of characters involved, to be a "hidden, untold story" of some unknown Rebels rather than the depiction of storied galactic warfare in TCW, which has legendary participants like Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin. If anything, things should be smaller in scale and less impactful on the galaxy at large---I think that's what people don't understand when comparing the two shows.


    And yet, in spite of those restraints, the show is endlessly ambitious and creative with the small cluster of characters and self-contained conflict it has. Some of the world-building and original elements concocted in Rebels is nothing short of spectacular, and the way they managed to incorporate the Force and the Jedi into the story without being some era-defiling, disbelief-inducing fanfic on acid like The Force Unleashed really shows how much the writers know what they're doing.

    I wish some of them would get more creative opportunities than just the show. God knows Star Wars as a brand needs it right now, with how woefully-uncreative it appears on almost every other medium besides animation.

    This isn’t even my problem with the new films, it more has to do with the fact that the new writers seem almost allergic to creating new and comprehensible lore of their own. They have the next era of Star Wars to work with, but they don’t want to foster it into anything with the substance and world-building of the previous trilogies. The way the setting of this new era has been established and the conflict conveyed is so ridiculously poor that it makes the few lines of world-building exposition in ANH look like the freaking Simirilion by comparison. The new writers aren’t interested in immersing audiences in the world, they don’t want to branch off and make the universe feel bigger, like Lucas, Filoni, and countless EU writers and artists did. It’s almost like Disney bought the brand to make it feel more suffocatingly-small and pathetic in scope, not to expand on it…which defies all logic, considering they want to milk this franchise with annual sequels all the way through the 2030’s.

    It’s like watching someone buy a massive collection of flowers, and then refuse to water and take care of them.

    It’s almost like J.J Abrams specializes in flashy set-pieces and empty nostalgia to distract you from the fact that he has no creative vision or long-term plan for the stuff he does.

    I dunno about you, but this sounds eerily familiar to another sci-fi franchise he was chosen to reboot.


    No, it's the kind of behavior you're implicitly encouraging by providing an ultimatum of deciding to continue expressing distaste like I'm doing, or....what was it? "Having the legacy of TLJ be one that brings happiness and smiling faces"?


    To which, my answer is a profound 'no.' I don't care how many people are made happy by the film---it doesn't change the fact that the film itself was a poor piece of work. I'm sure plenty of young kids were enamored by the mindless, flashy superficiality of the Michael Bay Transformers films....that doesn't make them good, or above lampooning from Transformer fans who want something of acceptable quality.

    I was all spent on Old Republic-related EU material by the time the new canon was launched, so I opted to move into the post-ROTJ material with The Thrawn Trilogy and onward. I’m on the New Jedi Order books right now, and all I can say is that I’m amazed at the kind of boundless creativity and scope the authors were capable of.

    Just reading the new conflict unfurl and reveal this entirely new threat was fascinating, and really puts the lack of finesse and nuance in these new Star Wars films.

    They just do everything BETTER. They actually make me feel like I’m experiencing the next big era of Star Wars—through the eyes of both new and old generations, and tons of new characters and plot developments. The story isn’t afraid to make the legacy characters like Luke, Han and Leia go through adversity, suffer, have flaws, be painted in a negative light…and do all of those things competently, without ever breaking immersion or character integrity. The new generation of characters from Jacen to Danni to Jaina all feel substantial and impactful to the plot, and actually challenge the older generation in terms of ideals and strategies with dealing with the new conflict. There’s even some moral grey Jedi dilemmas strung between Jacen and Luke, about how the Jedi Order should act, and what’s ethically sound for them to do.

    It’s literally like peering into a mirror universe where TLJ was actually well-made and competent, and succeeded in everything it was trying to attempt.

    None of that even remotely explains why Luke repeated the mistake he made in ESB over 30 years later. By your logic, he should’ve been so depressed and crippled by the trauma of his mistake in rushing to meet Vader that he should’ve ran off into exile right then and there…not become a Jedi Knight, not stay with the Rebel Alliance, and not confront the Sith in ROTJ. In fact, by your logic, he should never have succeeded with training more Jedi or opening an Academy.

    You’re making rationalizations for why Luke is on this island, all depressed and alone, cut off from the Force. That’s not what our discussion was ever about—it’s the logic behind him making the mistake that GOT him there.

    And it’s a lazy, poorly thought-out and immensely anticlimactic one, courtesy of Rian Johnson.

    First off, I would absolutely characterize Luke jumping to conclusions and contemplating murder stumbling straight back into the same mistake. That embodies a lack of growth or development in Luke’s characterization, full-stop. It makes it look like he’s learned nothing, and that the trauma and suffering from the first time he made this mistake in ESB has left no mark on him in terms of experience or caution. It makes the entire notion of him being a Jedi Master a laughable one.

    As for your second point, how do you know Luke DID work on his weaknesses? We aren’t ever shown any evidence for it, so that’s entirely based on assumption and head-canon. Moreover, if we decide to entertain this and write in the holes for the people paid to make this film (an all-too-common and loathsome tactic by those attempting to rationalize the festering under-written status of this film), wouldn’t Luke spending years ironing out his weaknesses make the occurrence of this mistake less likely?

    In fact, in ESB, Luke at least pondered what he saw in the vision before taking off in his X-Wing. In TLJ, his FIRST INSTINCT was to contemplate the murder of his nephew. If anything, this makes Luke look even more hot-blooded and wretchedly-impulsive than when he was in his 20’s…which regresses his growth and development even further.

    It’s almost like the consistency and logic in Luke’s writing was done by someone completely incompetent and hell-bent on getting his drama, to the point of irresponsibly disregarding how much sense it would make.

    But that’s just crazy talk, right?

    I’m afraid so. I’m not willing to yank out entire bushels of head-canon out of my brain in order to prop up false investment into a scene Rian Johnson desperately intends to be the emotional backbone of Luke’s characterization and failure. When I have to do extensive amounts of speculation and leaps of assumption in order to properly buy into that kind of scene, that’s the writer’s failure for refusing to foster and develop the emotional dilemma he’s trying to set up.

    Again, head-canon and speculation. Nothing in the actual film suggests this as being the reason for what happened, and the implication isn’t even there.

    These films are derivative enough with their shameless stealing of past films’ scenes, character motifs, visual style, aesthetic, conflict, setting, and confrontations…when they now have characters like Luke regressing and repeating long-term traumatic mistakes beat-for-beat like they haven’t even grown in the 30-year time-skip that took place between trilogies.

    Cycles are fine in films where enough is different around them to service a few reoccurring elements. But these new films are recycling enough elements from previous films to come off as bootlegs…I don’t think asking that they come up with new struggles for the characters is too much to ask for.

    The only reason it’s not the exact same is because the context surrounding Luke making the mistake this time is so unbelievable and phony that it defies explanation. He’s literally shown the exact same kind of lack of emotional restraint and irrational thinking of his youth, at an age and Jedi prestige where experience and time should’ve bounced him in the opposite direction.

    Instead of creating new weaknesses to challenge Luke, greater weaknesses even, Rian chose to recycle one.

    An on-going theme of derivative storytelling in this trilogy, if you haven’t already noticed.

    This makes for an incredibly compelling subject for a therapy session, but not one for a story like this. Especially one that tells me that the person repeating said failures on such a foolhardy and colossal level is also supposedly wise and patient enough to host an entire school’s worth of students.

    Also, the thematic element of Luke failing to move on from past mistakes and doomed to constantly repeat them is something of an ineffective story tactic in a Sequel Trilogy hellbent on recreating previous plot elements and thematic moments on a painfully unoriginal, borderline plagiaristic scale.

    That’d be like….oh, I dunno, implementing a ham-fisted anti-capitalism plot in a new string of films helmed by one of the richest and most aggressively-profiteering companies on the planet. That would be the PICTURE of self-awareness. Good thing that isn’t in The Last Je—

    Oh, wait.

    You aren’t asking me to see the glass as half-full. You want me to like the film as much as you do, as you stated with the following:

    “…There's just so much magic and joy that it brings me whenever I watch it that I just don't get with any other SW movie. I just wish I could help others see it in the same light.”

    That’s not asking for optimism. That’s asking for people to regale in the same things that the film managed to please you uniquely. And sorry, but that isn’t going to happen…not by people like me in this thread. Simply because it isn’t a simple matter of letting a few quibbles discolor the redeeming qualities with the film…it’s that there were no redeeming qualities in the film for me.

    There is nothing in this film that I want to see in future Star Wars material going forth. Nothing. The fight scenes were abysmal, the dialogue was atrocious, the new alien designs were ugly, so much of the plot and conflict was ripped completely from past films like ESB and ROTJ, the mannequins standing in as main characters had all the on-screen charisma and presence of distilled dishwater, and the world-building and themes are so underdone that I have no desire to see the finer aspects explored in supplementary material like books or comics. This film is an unapproachable and irredeemable mess from every angle, the literal lowest this franchise has ever stooped in cinematic form. You’ll have to excuse me if I’m not dripping with optimism when the movie has offered me so little in terms of original or competently-made content.

    My parents taught me to try and view things in a positive light as often as possible, but they also taught me to have standards. Especially for the things I pay money for.

    Except this isn’t some natural behemoth of uncontrollable or unamendable matter, like rain. This is a product, made by actual people, intended to sell and represent a well-loved franchise. And the problems introduced by the current direction of Star Wars aren’t even remotely comparable to rain—because rain stops. The sun comes out. The weather changes. It wavers between good and bad. The ST has been on a consistent downward slope from the beginning, and it’s not down to uncontrollable circumstance like the weather—it’s the direct results of poor planning, storytelling mistakes, and unoriginal and uncreative vapidity in handling a broad universe: conscious decision-making that continues to do the Star Wars canon harm.

    I’m not going to “adapt and overcome” the absence of quality. I’m just going to refuse to financially support it or to refrain from criticizing it until the situation changes.

    That logic only works if there’s redeeming qualities to be found at all. The ST have none—they’ve brought nothing good or original to Star Wars in any form. They have brought nothing interesting or worth salvaging in the canon materials like comics, games, or books, and have nothing of lasting value in the realm of creative conflicts or original characters.

    The ST could be axed from canon tomorrow, and nothing of value would’ve been lost. Just some unoriginal storytelling and undeveloped, paper-thin characters.

    I think you’re getting a very skewed perception of my feelings towards these films because of the sheer volume of hyperbole I project towards them. Let me clarify something:

    I’m not suffering “misery and pain” because of the ST. I didn’t hate the current direction enough to leave the fanbase like so many others, simply because the OT didn’t have that much emotional meaning to me. I grew up with six Star Wars films, not three, and a wealth of supplementary stories in the EU. That passion has endured for years, in the long decade in which there were no films at all.

    You think the presence of a few horrendous ones are enough to ward me off Star Wars for good? Pfft. Fat chance of that—that’s like letting your love of something be tainted by bad and unreadable fanfiction (which is an apt comparison, given the writing and execution of these films). They’re appalling pieces of media, but they aren’t bad enough to taint everything I love about Star Wars.

    No…the ST isn’t the problem, it’s the symptom of a much bigger problem: the current direction of Star Wars: the annual film release schedule, the chokehold of creativity, the downward plummet in quality stories, the lack of compelling characters, the underdevelopment of the universe, and the crippling of the mythology. These aren’t just problems affecting the films; I can ignore the films if I want, and spend these next few years walled behind a comfortable bunker of canon books, comics, and games…the problem is that those suck too, because they’re affected by all the same problems of the films.

    I’m not on these forums ranting because Rian Johnson ruined my childhood or because I’ve suffered mortifying doses of betrayal and heartbreak…it’s because I’ve been a paying consumer of Star Wars for half of my life, and that aside from Star Wars Rebels, there’s nothing good for me to consume. Which is a very real problem that one can’t simply walk away from. I’ve abandoned plenty of franchises that have declined in quality over the years, but I’ll never do that with Star Wars because I shouldn’t HAVE to.

    I shouldn’t have to ‘walk away’—that’s not the solution for this dilemma. The solution is for Lucasfilm to start releasing good content again.

    And I’ll be on this forum complaining consistently until they do.

    I don’t need or want the power to remedy the situation with Star Wars as a consumer. I simply wish to share my disdain with other consumers who feel as disenfranchised as I do by the lack of quality.

    Believe me, I haven’t given Lucasfilm a cent of my money towards these new films since 2015. That’s not the issue here. But I’m not going to march off and watch silently as Star Wars festers and molds under incompetent leadership and poor creative decisions. I find therapeutic relief and satisfaction voicing my disdain with fellow dissenters, not pain.

    That is the ONLY reason I’m here, the only reason I write as long and extensively as I do. Out of passion…and nothing Lucasfilm does will take that luxury and satisfaction from me.

    Again, you’re perceiving my posts as personal suffering all on your own. Just because my verbal tirades on this forum are as lengthy and heated as they are doesn’t mean I’m sobbing into my pillow every night.

    Believe me, I find forum posting and engaging in EU material far more wholesome and graitifying pastime then paying Lucasfilm to continue engaging in storytelling bafoonery.
     
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  7. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Rebel Official

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    Good point. Due the passion we all have for starwars, I'd say most of us who critique , discuss or praise Content on here enjoy doing so. Theres some SW content I enjoy more than other content, and just because someone critiques doesnt mean They should be looked at as suffering whiners.

    All though I disagree partly with your thoughts on the current direction of StarWars, I appreciate the thoughtyou put into it.
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Good luck finding a source for me writing that, because I most definitely never did. So either you’re irresponsibly mistaken or you’re intentionally duplicitous. Either way, I think this aptly demonstrates how fruitless presenting differing points of view is with you. You’re simply not interested.
     
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  9. Keri Ford

    Keri Ford Clone Trooper

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    You're right that the quote isn't yours, it's from Kestrel (post #4296 page 215), but there are two different conclusions you could make, its a mistake or its deliberate. I don't know which it is, but actually your presenting a differing point of view did bear a lot of fruit, Darth_Nobunaga spent a lot of time discussing your points, while he disagreed with you I thought he did responded to the points you were making and quite fully, obviously with the exception of the incorrect citation. Having said that I too can have difficulty appreciating contrary opinions to my own.
     
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  10. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    After reading a lot of replies on here and other places too. One word keeps popping up time after time and it's probably the fundamental reasoning to the discomfort of RJ's work.

    'Laziness'

    I Don't know if I agree with this sentiment because I think he wrote too much and then cut and paste around Kylo. This leads me to think it was just too much for him. He's unable to write female characters, he didn't care about Finn and he ignored the previous seven movies. Top and bottom of it all he was out of his depth. It's like he wrote an essay, went over his word limit and cut out the facts that were needed. He really struggled with this project. Too much too soon.
     
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  11. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    These are the types of comments from Johnson I can't stand (in the twitter attachment I have quoted above which isn't showing). I would bet anything that I've watched Star Wars more than Rian Johnson has. And I would go into debt so I could bet even more that I am more familiar with the EU - both legends and Disney - of the past 30 years than Johnson.

    He doesn't have any sort of greater understanding of the saga, even though he reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy enjoys pulling that card.
     
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  12. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Hey @Darth_Nobunaga , I started writing responses to your comments but gave up.

    It wasn't long after you called the films out for stealing from past films, labelled major themes from the saga “head canon and speculation”, and I learned you thought TLJ was pushing an agenda against economic systems based on the private ownership of capital.

    I get you hate a movie but it's hard for me to take the extremity of all this stuff and the claims a sought-after film director is “lazy” and “incompetent” seriously enough to keep responding.

    I hope you feel better for getting all this out of you system and find some future SW content to your liking.

    Here's a random cute animal gif to lighten things up a little.

    2.gif
    --- Double Post Merged, Jul 16, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 16, 2018 ---
    So this is where we are at now.

    2014officespace13.gif
     
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  13. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Interesting. That wasn’t my impression at all. The exact opposite in fact. Summed up rather succinctly below.
    In other words: ‘Thanks, but no thanks. Keep your opposing viewpoints, I’m just here to vent.’ Everything else beyond that is simply verbose window dressing.

    So, that’s that. Not much else to say I don’t think.
     
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  14. DarthSnow

    DarthSnow Lord Commander
    1030th Commander *** (Mod)

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    Hey guys! Soooo.
    Things have been getting a little too chippy here lately.

    Let's all stop with the baiting and little personal jabs, whether they be cleverly disguised or outright blunt. What we think of a movie shouldn't dictate what we think of and how we act towards each other. Not to mention, it's against our Rules here.

    At some point we have to get past who we think is right or wrong and realize that different people just like different things.

    Thank you all!
    :)
     
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  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yes, when Rian Johnson dismisses critics by stating that they "haven't really watched Star Wars," that is where we are now.

    For him to act like his critics are just a bunch of johnny-come-lately's who haven't "really" watched Star Wars is idiotic. Not only would I bet anything I have "really" watched a lot more Star Wars than he ever has, I know for a fact I am certainly not the only fan/critic who is able to make that claim.

    MOD EDITED
     
    #4495 Wolfpack, Jul 16, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2018
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  16. mecano

    mecano Rebel General

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    Bravo, my friend! Every word!
     
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  17. Shadowblade

    Shadowblade Rebel Trooper

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    Liked this summary.... I can feel your anger ;-)

     
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  18. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel General

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    It's the former, actually. You're correct in that it was a mistake....which tends to happen when you've been gone for a full week from the forums, and have to re-adjust to replying and arguing with three different users at the same time. I suppose the reason I misquoted @eeprom is because of how similar his sentiment was to Kestrel's post: this notion of hating TLJ being some unhealthy phase that some of us can grow out of, with time and positivity.

    I've already illustrated with several points why this a counterproductive mentality for a franchise being exhaustively pumped out with annual films as Star Wars is currently, with simplying lying down and only concentrating on the positive basically enabling Disney/LFL to keep messing up without any consequence (well, maybe outside of Solo's box office returns, at least). Moreover, this does nothing to dismantle the problems I or anyone else has with TLJ as a product: its problems don't magically just disappear just because we close our eyes and try to be as optimistic as possible.

    I also wish eeprom had actually discussed the rest of my points instead of just homing in on a mistake I made, and then deciding as a malicious troll dripping with disingenuous intentions. A shame, since our conversation looked like it was going somewhere.

    I don't know why any of this would prevent you from addressing the other points I made, or suddenly make them less valid. What, do these specific criticisms suddenly cast everything I've stated in a false or dubious light? Because making that kind of dismissal wouldn't exactly be constructive.

    And what exactly is innacurate about any of those things, anyway? TLJ does steal things previous films, even the most hardcore of proponents won't try and deny that (many of them celebrate that as an aspect of the film). That's not exactly a dubious or far-fetched claim---it's a pretty objective trait of the film, and the ST overall, one that the previous trilogies managed to avoid quite well. In addition, I only labeled your interpretations of major saga themes as "head canon and speculation". You were making blanket assumptions about what several things in TLJ meant, and how they tied into the previous films in the saga, without any hard evidence and only personal interpretation. That, by its very nature, is head-canon. And while it isn't inherently wrong to have, it's not particularly valid as a means of revoking a single point I've made in this discussion. Trying to counter my issues with the film with "This is what I think happened, which is why I like it" isn't conducive to the discussion whatsoever. And as for me claiming that Rian Johnson is try to stick heavy-handed anti-capitalistic themes in the film---is that some kind of toxic falsehood? Could you honestly look me with a straight face and tell me that I'm making some kind of far-fetched claim about how Rian Johnson wants the audience to feel about Canto Bight, and where the pompous rich people sit in the good/evil spectrum provided by the film's narrative? Not pushing an agenda, perhaps...but definitely laying his personal morals pretty thick, and at the expense of the flow of the movie. George Lucas didn't have Qui-Gon and company side-track their mission to return Queen Amidala to safety by busting into Mos Espa and freeing all the slaves---George drew attention to the issue, depicted it as serious, but had enough restraint not to let it derail the reason he brought the characters here: to encounter and cooperate with Anakin. Rian injecting this sub-plot about the evils of people getting rich off of the suffering of innocent poor people and cute animals is not only incredibly ham-fisted, but side-tracks the entire Canto Bight sub-plot for no reason beneficial to the story or conflict (outside of making Rose and Finn appear five billion times more imbecilic as characters). And this is all while Rian is making a film for one of the richest business conglomerates on the planet.

    It may not be pushing an agenda, but it is a blatant lack of self-awareness that absolutely invites eye-rolling, and only serves to be a waste of precious screentime that could've been funneled into absolutely ANYTHING else. That's my issue with it.

    I'm not calling Rian Johnson "lazy" or "incompetent", I'm calling his decisions lazy and incompetent. That's an important distinction to make, one I feel many pro-TLJ users around here fail in doing whenever they see me criticize this film. I haven't seen enough of Rian Johnson's work to determine if he himself is really lazy or incompetent, but I can absolutely judge his decision-making and execution of elements in this film.

    Also, if you think the kind of statements I make are too extreme, then I don't recommend engaging with my posts in the future. The hyperbole and extremity of my posts is absolutely intentional, and not something I feel like dialing down anytime soon. The positive sensationalism projected over TLJ on this forum isn't exactly being done with a whole lot of subjectivity and restrained analysis, so I have no reason to bow to the standards of people who are willing to adopt their own on another thread, let alone one committed to discussing the films' faults.

    The only thing I do is stay within the boundaries of language, and the insistence to avoid character attacks and politics. But those are the only parameters I will enforce. You can absolutely count on that in the future, whether my posts bother you or not.

    Indeed. Hopefully, the current Star Wars canon will reach a point when everything from the films to the novels matches the stellar quality seen almost exclusively in Rebels. I look forward to that day....

    ...but you can be rest assured that I'll be here ranting until it does.

    Admittedly, it is a cute GIF.

    Thank you for engaging in our conversation. It's been a pleasure.

    That isn't even remotely accurate to what I was trying to say with that statement.

    I was trying to dismantle this inexplicable claim you were making that the new films had caused me some kind of heartbreak, and that only concentrating on the negative was some kind of unhealthy taint that I needed to distance myself from, and that the best solution was to turn my back on Star Wars altogether based on that suffering. To which, my answer is no. I'm not suffering or in some kind of agonized state---these posts reflect nothing like that. Aside from the new films giving me absolutely nothing positive to concentrate on, my fixation on the negative on this thread is something that brings immense satisfaction to voice, given how the opportunity to verbalize such grievances doesn't really arise in real life as often.

    I don't know why being negative about the film is such a novel concept on a thread labeled "THREAD FOR THOSE THAT HATED THE MOVIE." If I'm unwilling to "see the positive" in the film or "let it go" like you and many others wish me to, I would like to remind you of something crucial: No one is on this thread to change their mind on their opinion of the film. No one. Everyone who's seen this film, and still commenting at great length about, likely has solidified their feelings towards the film without a willingness to compromise---and that goes for positive and negative perceptions of the film. I don't think the more pro-TLJ crowds on this thread came to this thread to have their minds changed on the positive aspects they see in the film...especially when so many of those positive aspects are openly despised by the dissenters on this thread. But what I don't understand is what creates notion that the people who hate this film are suddenly more susceptible to changing their minds or coming around to it than the people who like it are to suddenly hating it. That's simply not going to happen.

    Everyone's made up their minds about how they feel about the film. There isn't a whole lot of merit in calling out those who rigidly hate it as being "inconstructive" or
    "uncompromising" when the people who like the film aren't willing to budge about how they feel about it either.
     
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  19. Corn Cream

    Corn Cream Rebel General

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    1. Single worst mistake is different than making multiple so called mistakes. Especially when it involves murder.

    2. The problem with Rian attempting to change Luke as a character is that he failed to check if the other characters were developed enough to carry the story. The main 3 characters arcs fall flat. Hence the constant debate of their purpose.
    I look at the list of things Rian wanted. Not what the characters needed.

    Take Rey. The list says she has a conflict with the FO. What's the conflict?
    Except for wanting family Rey is a blank slate. Others want Rey to do things, but we have no idea why she is helping the Resistance.
    Maz wants her to fight. Leia wanted her to bring back Luke. Luke wanted her to go away. Snoke wanted her to get to Luke. Kylo wanted her to help him with Snoke and the guards. One thing they got right was when Kylo told her you have no purpose in this story. She's just an object that has been moved around for others to manipulate.

    Let's look at Finn.
    Finn wanted to get away to the Outer Rim. He didn't want to have anything to do with this fight, because he felt the FO was too strong and powerful. They'll slaughter us was his words. There was no internal conflict with that. He only went back to save Rey, and he made sure to mention that to Han. He doesn't need to save the Resistance. He needs to have a life first. Something he never had. We know however, we don't have the time to explore all of that, but the last thing a person who never had a life is give it away in a matter of days. Especially when he wanted to get away. What he needed was a purpose that was personal to him to fight the FO. Not help the Resistance fight the FO. Roses words should have had no influence on his decision, because he already knew how powerful the FO was.

    Kylo has been babied throughout this trilogy so far. He is supposed to be the bad guy, and a powerful force user, but he's been anything but that. He's killed two unarmed men. He almost killed another who picked up a lightsaber for the first time just a few hours ago, and eventually more than met his match when he went up against Rey. Another person who barely touched a lightsaber before. I don't know what he's supposed to be.
     
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  20. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    A bad guy doesn't need to be an all evil and beard twirling villain. The contrast between his raw, untamed power, his unskillful use of it and his mental instability is what makes this character great.

    You forgot about the Praetorian guards. Guards who are higly feared within the FO.

    As a Stormtrooper he was trained in combat. => Look at TR-8R.

    Rey also has experience in combat because of her life. Furthermore she's chosen by the force.

    I think that's the point. He's an unknown quantity.
     
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