THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Well, this is certainly the most oddly worded apology I’ve ever gotten

If responding to so many people at the same time is so overwhelming, then maybe don’t do that. Maybe slow down, take your time, and be more mindful of what you’re doing. Extending that meager level of respect goes a long way. Imagine if our roles were reversed. If I had attributed someone else’s words to you that reflected the exact opposite of your position, wouldn’t you be the tiniest bit offended? I’m not worth the slight effort required to double check a source? Does that make sense?

I felt the conversation had run its course. What I was presenting was incompatible with your outlook. Simple as that. I didn’t understand why anyone would choose to hate something when they didn’t have to. Now I get it. Hating it is part of the fun for you. I thought I was helping, but really I was just spoiling the fun. Any more exertion labored on a dead end isn’t worth either of our time. Wouldn’t you agree?

Just to be clear, this is my perspective: I already have one terrific Star Wars trilogy. It’s always been there for me and if it was the only one I ever got, then I’d be perfectly happy. Everything beyond that is pure bonus material. ‘Greatness’ has already been achieved as far as I’m concerned. All the other stuff I can take or leave. I’d like it to be good. I’d like everything to be good. But I don’t need it to be and I certainly don’t expect it to be. I count myself lucky for what I already have.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Star Wars, to me, isn’t something on a screen or a page. It’s an idea. It’s the spark of imagination set ablaze by the unbound potential of a world filled with endless possibilities. Nothing and no one can ever "ruin" that for me except me. I’m the only one with that power and I won’t be letting it happen any time soon. But that’s just me. Take care now.

 

No, they just revealed a greater level of disconnect between us...



... and I can't muster the enthusiasm at the moment!

I get most of your points in your last post.
I didn't intend to invalidate your claims so much as demonstrate the possibility that other plausible options also exist.
Absolutist conclusions about ambiguous material is what got my attention.
I just figure if your convictions are strong and you think other possibilities are weak there's probably little point in my angle of response.
No worries.

It's not just the "extremity" of your positions that encourages me to disengage although some things like "lazy" writing sounded incredulous and I'm not sure if the word “capitalism” means what you think it means (the economic system the Republic, Rebellion, and Resistance all use has never being called into question in SW).

But some comments raised some possible trolling alarms in me and gave me pause.
I don't think you are trolling but things like these ↑ and choosing words like “stealing” as opposed to “reference”, “homage”, or “repetition” made the possibility cross my mind.

Anyway I don't think we're communicating well either and don't want to hog the thread.
I make an effort to word responses to Luke “woulds” and “shoulds” as “maybe”, “perhaps”, or “could” yet you seem to read them as bold claims or baseless assumptions.
While I try to acknowledge different ideas or sensible observations as “good points”, “you're right” or “fair enough” you just seem interested in proving yourself right and bolstering your convictions.

Such responses are understandable and perfectly legitimate reasons for posting of course.
It's just not so much what I'm looking for in conversations at the moment.

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting things here (it happens often) but my reply is about honest feedback not rudeness.
I don't mean to sound arrogant either – I so the same things all the time which may be why these things rub me the wrong way!



Anyway, the art of disagreeing with people on the internet is a tough one to master and I'm still learning.
See you around!

 

No one was talking about mustache twirling villains. He was interesting in TFA, but his rise to supreme leader was like winning a game because the other team didn't show up. The only raw power we've witnessed from Kylo was in the beginning of TFA when he stopped Poe's blaster shot in mid-air. Snoke"s words fall flat compared to that.

Finn was trained in combat. The top 1% of all storm trooper cadets. How come there is no mention of this in the movies though? Why do we have to get two references in two movies about him doing clean up duty? This is the same guy that hit Kylo on the shoulder with a light saber. This doesn't make Kylo more menacing. It makes him look like a joke. How was a guy who mops able to hit you with a weapon he never used before? Lucas films need to make up their mind what Finn is. If they don't mention and show Finn's skill set then it only weakens Kylo as a villain.

The Praetorian guards are more words on paper than anything else that was visually jaw dropping. There bark was bigger than their bite.

Rey's combat experience on a sand planet shouldn't be equivalent to trained battled tested warriors. Chosen by the force doesn't give her any purpose of her own, because she doesn't have to do anything. We as the audience should see her need to take this journey. Not guided by others.

Kylo is underdeveloped as the big boss which makes it unsatisfactory.

 

Were you expecting something more direct? You literally ended our last conversation by stating that you wouldn't continue. Hell, I didn't even think you were going to respond to my last reply...much less accept a direct apology from me.

I don't know how well my ability to apologize will be received when the person I misquoted immediately accuses me of being either "irresponsibly mistaken or intentionally duplicitous", with both indicating that I was "no longer interested." There's not a whole lot I can do with that.

I couldn't honestly tell you what I would do if our roles had been reversed, but I can tell you what I wouldn't do: and that's leap to conclusions and assume the person I'm talking to isn't being genuine or honest, like you were accusing me of. I'd honestly be more confused than offended, and ask more questions about who/what the person I was talking to was quoting.

I certainly wouldn't be offended enough to literally shut my involvement in the conversation down. I tend to keep conversations going on for far longer. Regardless, I wasn't aware a mistake could be interpreted as a lack of respect. A lack of credibility and consistency, certainly, but respect? You act like I wasn't paying attention to you.

The fact that I responded to so many of your points in the same post is proof that I was at least trying. None of which, you ever succeeded in refuting, by the way.

Hold on, you "wouldn't understand why anyone would choose to hate something when they didn't have to?" What does that even mean? Is there a context in which someone "doesn't have to " hate something when they've already decided they don't like it? So, if I eat something I was told was cooked, only to bite into it and find it raw, undercooked, and disgusting enough to spit it out and complain, would someone actually tell me: "Well, you don't have to hate it, y'know." This literally doesn't make a lick of sense. You've completely lost me here. If you don't like something, especially when that disdain involves something you're passionate about, I'm pretty damn skippy you're going to complain about it. The question of whether you "have to hate it" or not is irrelevant at that point.

I don't even know how or why you would employ that mentality on a thread like this.

I hate to get in the way of your selfless and humanitarian efforts, but you should probably ask people why they feel the need to express their vitriol before trying to "help" them. Not everyone rants or babbles on forums for the sole purpose of licking emotional wounds---some of us do it to offer new points of criticism, or bring new grievances to the table, or in my case, offer a dissenters' stance from someone who has no political or social biases whatsoever...to better illustrate the personal qualms of non-toxic fans mainstream media outlets pretend don't actually exist.

Just a lesson to take away from this experience: trying to be the voice of reason or positivisty before properly assessing the situation can compromise one's credibility on the topic of discussion. It's a common mistake I'm continually seeing in regards to the pro-TLJ camp.

But it's okay. As our little spat over misquoting proves, I'm just as capable of making mistakes.

Cool. I have two terrific trilogies.

It's funny you say that, because I was perfectly happy with ten years of just two trilogies, and a wealth of supplementary material. If Star Wars was only ever continued in Expanded Universe form, and the Lucas-made saga was the only filmic thing I ever got, I'd be just fine.

Yeah, bonus material. Like novels, and comics, and video games, and TV shows. Y'know, all that stuff we got before the ST was even greenlit at a shareholders' meeting.

The caveat, of course, is that the bonus material had to be good for me to buy and consume it. A novel concept, no pun intended...but one we've sadly lost.

Thing is, everything doesn't have to be good. But something has to be good, at least.

Let's say I was born in an alternate reality where I had no taste in films (), and I absolutely hated the Prequel Trilogy. Even if those films were terrible in my eyes, you know what I'd still have? I'd have the next ten years of superb novel sagas that covered multiple eras and attempted ambitious story arcs. I'd still have a wealth of video games done by multiple publishers. I'd have bold and original comics being made by Dark Horse. Someone like me would have alternatives, a supplementary mountain of canon materials to collapse onto like a comfortable bed of roses. But with the new face of LFL and Disney's re-purposing of the brand? Those alternatives aren't being made anymore. That beacon of quality to shelter fans like me when the films fail to step up is no longer there. The quality of the novels, comics, games, and other materials are of dismally lower quality then what we had gotten in the prior decade---no, strike that, in the TWO decades of EU content when the new continuity launched in 1991, before I was even born.

The problem isn't that everything isn't good. The problem is NOTHING is good. The films are just a symptom of a larger problem, and when everything else sucks in the same canon, it's hard to keep expectations and leniency out of the Earth's mantle.

That's nice and well for you. But Star Wars to me is a shared universe of boundless creativity and risk-taking---none of which is present in the new films or continuity. Whatever familiar elements are ham-fistedly recycled from past films without any care, subtlety, or good execution, and the new elements presented are the kind of cringe that's reserved for bad Harry Potter fanfiction.

A boundless world of possibilities is worthless if the writers involved never try to economize on them. Half of the "mystery box" nonsense started by J.J. Abrams in the first film has been shot down with lackluster revelations or just narrative dead ends, showcasing none of the creativity or imagination this franchise was built on, with everyone from the novelists to the comic writers demonstrating the same. And while I don't consider any of these failings to be ruinous to what I consider canon (with the EU's decanonization shielding it from all of the problems plaguing the new continuity, thank God), I can still be angry when the franchise under the reign of business titan like Disney---which could inhale classic Lucasfilm like a whale with their boundless resources and wealth---are failing to distribute the good ideas and execution of a show targeted at 7-year-olds like Rebels throughout the multi-million dollar films and so-called "proper canon shared universe."

Is Star Wars ruined? No. Is it in a creative drought? Absolutely. And instead of getting giddy over the potential of these films and continuity being good, I'm going to rant and project infuriated rhetoric until it actually starts BEING good. And I have every right to do so.

Take care, indeed. As always, thank you for engaging.

Other plausible possibilities to everything I've stated could exist, but they aren't relevant to the discussion until proven that they do exist.

We can go all day about what we speculate happened off-screen with characters like Luke, plunge into the deepest folds of our inner fanfictions to piece together something resembling a coherent plot in this film...but we aren't talking about the film we may have gotten, or the kinds of things that may have happened off-screen. We're only talking about what the film itself gave us. Ultimately, when it comes to what was presented to us specifically in the film, nothing you have presented as a counter to my complaints holds any water---because the film neither directly states or even implies a single one of them of being true. The fact that so much of this film hinges on defenses based purely on assumption and interpretation just shows how poorly the film communicated its plot.

You can speculate all you wish, but I'm not here to speculate---I'm here to discuss what was tangibly and irrefutably presented in the actual films. You're going to need something stronger than assumptions to bolster your points when I can actually prove mine, and you have to mine into interpretation and speculation to prove yours.

I'm sorry if my attitude offends you, but given how little assumption was required to understand the plot, reasoning, and motives displayed in the previous six films, it's not absolutist to expect the same from later films existing in the same series.

Apparently, when recycling past elements from previous films, neither Rian Johnson nor J.J. Abrams thought about re-using proper plot conveyance as well. A shame, since even the people who like these movies have to leap through such huge hoops of speculation in order to properly enjoy it.

Other possibilities aren't weak. Just irrelevant.

Head-canon and speculation do not remove factual occurrences and storytelling choices that irrefutably exist within the film. The latter is all I've ever been interested in discussing, particularly in light of the standard set by previous films.

An homage in an otherwise original and wildly-creative film is acceptable enough to avoid being called "stealing." Literally lifting an entire scene, playing the same music, parroting the same dialogue, creating the same peril, and attempting to emulate the same drama is not an affectionate or reasonable homage to anything. Scenes like the confrontation in Snoke's Throne Room are repurposed empty nostalgia at best and uncreative plagiarism at worst.

If my wording makes you doubt my genuine feelings on the matter and makes it look like I'm trolling, then there's nothing I can do for you. If all you pay attention to in regards to engaging with people's points is the vocabulary they use, then I'm not certain you read enough into people's points to properly respond to them.

Maybe I use some of the same terminology or vocab as the rest of the anti-TLJ groups on the net. That doesn't make my points or arguments the same as a troll.

I read your claims as baseless assumptions because until they're supported by tangible evidence or direct implication within the films, that's all they are. Assumptions. Theories. Interpretation. Head-Canon. Fanfiction. Not facts.

I'm not saying you aren't allowed to take a step back and evaluate things on a purely speculative level, but if you're going to refute issues people have with things that are directly and unquestionably in the film, you'll need to strongly support your validation of these elements by focusing on what is IN the films, not in whatever film you wanted to see within the shrouded mist of your own personal interpretation. That holds about as much foundation as wet paper in a thread directly centered around people voicing actual grievances with TLJ.

If someone raises concerns about a forest fire or a poor smell in the room, and you countered them by stating that leprechauns may exist, don't be surprised when people look at you funny.

Maybe you need to separate your idea about people who dislike this film from the blanket image you've constructed in your head about anti-TLJ dissenters as a whole. We aren't a collective, even if we use the same vocabulary or levels of hyperbole. I'm sure plenty of trolls and haters on Twitter and YouTube use many of the phrases and talking points I use, along with their arsenal of vulgarity and juvenile spurging of racist/sexist diatribe. That doesn't make my arguments, talking points, motives, priorities, or beliefs the same as them....the same can be said about the countless people who feel personally wounded by these new films and have left the fanbase, a group I sympathize with but do not represent in the slightest. I represent myself.

You don't sound arrogant or poor-meaning, if that's your worry....but you do sound a bit too dismissive over medial things. If you're willing to make this dismissal based on attitude and verbiage alone, then I can't really help you.

If you want to enhance your disagreement skills, I'd recommend taking to posting on video game forums. THAT'S an arena of divide and dissonance if I ever saw one.

Regardless of whether or not we talk again in the future, this conversation has been a good one.

Thank you for taking the time to post and reply.

 

I agree with you, he was more interesting in TFA and stuff like that. But he played Snoke like an instrument. This pretty much shows his raw powers.

I dislike it too that we don't get those kinds of information in the movies itself. But it's Star Wars after all. Star Wars always tried to fix things by the help of novels and comics.

Wasn't Kylo just toying with Finn? As soon as Finn got a lucky strike on Ren, he finished it quickly.

Maybe he gets more developed in IX, even though that means he will not be redeemed...

 

When the mistake is very easily avoidable and misrepresents the core of somebody’s position, I’m really not sure how else that could be interpreted but disrespectful. But whatever, that’s not how you see it. Fair enough.

Dude, you attributed a point of view to me that was 180 degrees away from anything I’ve ever written. I’m not sure what else to say about that. So I’ll just leave it there.

Well yeah, there’s a difference between hating something and simply not liking it. Disliking something is a dispassionate dismissal. It doesn’t meet your standards and so it isn’t worth your time. Hating something though is a consuming emotional response - a dedicated mindset. You’re investing thought and feeling. I don’t find hatred a particularly pleasant state of being, so I avoid it. Some people, I’m finding, actively seek it out though. I don’t get it, but I guess I don’t really have to. To each their own.

Ew, I like this metaphor. I wanna share too. If I were at a restaurant and given raw, inedible food, I’d politely bring it to my server’s attention, ensure I wouldn’t be billed for it, leave the establishment, and never go back - the end. I’d be disappointed, but I’d get over it. Such is life.

For this to be more accurate though, this would need to be a place I have an emotional attachment to. Somewhere I’d gone to all my life, that I have cherished memories of, but had recently taken on new ownership. In that case, I’d give it one more shot. Chalk that first incident up to a fluke and try it again. If the next experience was equally abysmal, then I’d cut it loose and maybe check back in a year or so (if they’re still in business). I’d appreciate the good times I had and accept that those days are now behind me. No need to dwell or revel in the melancholy of what might have been.

For this to be truly accurate to me though, I wouldn’t have been served RAW food, I’ve been served extremely BLAND food. Not inedible, just unimpressive and unremarkable. When that happens, I’ll add some seasoning to it. Some salt and pepper. Hot sauce or steak sauce maybe. Try and jazz it up by myself and make it more enjoyable. I shouldn’t HAVE TO do that, no. But that’s the situation. I’m sitting in front of this food and complaining about it isn’t going to make it taste any better. So, I’ll do what I can. Simple as that. Make sense?

I don’t love anything Disney/Lucasfilm has produced so far. It’s all been middle of the road for me (including Rebels). But I love Star Wars. I’ve decided I’m already on board. I’m invested, so I’ll latch onto the things I think have merit and focus on that. If it ever got so bad for me, that there was no redeeming value whatsoever, I’d be gone. But that’s just me.

When you see someone approaching a locked door you’ve already tried, you have two options. Say nothing and let them figure it out on their own, or give them the heads-up so they don’t have to waste their time making the same mistake. Some people will still try it regardless and that’s fine. It’s just common courtesy to try is all.

 

Meh I delete this because people like deleting my posts with glee.

But Reylo and victim blaming is pure evil. Neither is murderous uncle luke an aspect of politics.

 

I will do when it next happens.....It's been about a week since but I was and understand why. Besides it was my birthday and I was a little inebriated. These past three years have been awful. Its just been nice to have a little happiness once in a while.

 

I’ll take up this tradition, actually I like the idea of responding to older posts rather than trying to just be flavour of the month.

I have only touched a little on the EU, I did read the Thrawn Trilogy which was good, certainly better than the ST. One of the good things to come out of the debacle of the ST for me is to focus on what’s there already and its a substantial body with 2 trilogies, 2 lots of Clone Wars Rebels, comics and books.

That does help to clarify the issue, I thought the first series poor and stopped watching after that. I didn’t have the reaction to the Force Awakens which I felt actually undermined what went before, but I thought the characters weren’t very interesting and sometimes childish and the animation style more conventional and dull. However someone here encouraged me to watch season 2 and I found that much better, interesting characters were brought in, there was more world building and lore and the worst issues with the original characters were toned down. I’m on season 3 now and very much like the show.

The main characters were also not as interesting, but as stated above they have improved and continue to do so as the series goes on.

True, I would start watching if the teams that do the animations could do movies and map out good story arcs do good world & lore building, the talent is there, but instead they bring in movie directors who have no larger vision.

Well I think undermining the lore that was there already is a real problem, true they shouldn’t just adhere to what went before but build on it. Rey’s relationship to the Force in the Force Awakens cheapened it badly, not only did she have no Jedi master and no training but her character lacked gravitas in relationship to the force, there was no sense of wonder, no slow amazement, it was a plot trick, ugh! As for world building Lucas had been delighted to explore cgi because now he could create worlds and aliens on a scale much greater than the OT, but they returned to the OT aesthetic for some reason, popularity? nostalgia? they should have thought well cgi is better now, we can do the world building but also make it look as good as the OT.

To me this universe is greatly diminished. Why would I want to go there when I could steep myself in the more imaginative earlier works and novels and comics? Also seek imaginative work in other places.

I expect I will slowly explore the world of the novels, I bought a few batches of second hand novels for a good price and if I want a Star Wars fix I can return to the movies and TV shows I love or dip into them from time to time, it’s no bad prospect, and it is possible the Lucas films will find a new mojo sometime and again create great films, I’m happy to complain but not mope until that happens.

The justifications I have heard for Luke’s new and diminished character all come across as special pleading to me, the most straightforward and obvious interpretation is the Rian Johnson messed up. There are people that can take a character created by someone else and you just have the experience of “ah so that’s what happened to them”, the best that can be said of Luke’s metamorphosis is “well I suppose he could have changed into that”.

I’d say the same for the Force Awakens, it doesn’t make the imaginative ideas of Star Wars grow in me, quite the opposite.

Why would we want to leave, we love so much Star Wars material, there is still so much for us there to enjoy it’s not going anywhere. Star Wars (Lucas Films) was sold by its creator to Disney, Lucas previously oversaw its creative direction from inception through a number of decades, the new management decided against using Lucas’ story ideas and decided to use different ones with from what we can see no coherent plan, why should we just assumed because they call it Star Wars that it really is? If Dali had licensed someone to do paintings under his name and given them direction as to what they should do which they then ignored should we consider the paintings Dali paintings? Maybe that’s over stating, I think a successful transition could have been made, I just don’t think it was with the exception of Rebels and I still find that a diminished work in comparison to the Clone Wars.

Good point, tirades can be enjoyed, they can also help us to see what we liked so much about the earlier works and as you have pointed out this is a thread for those who hated The Last Jedi, we don’t come here to be convinced that what we saw as imaginative failings, poor world and lore building and generally derivative films can by some special feat of mental gymnastics be turned into something half decent.

 

Wtf man, where on Earth did you get this from?

Have you been sneaking into my hut at night and reading my thoughts?
If so you gotta give that up because these visions you're receiving are crazy inaccurate!

I've got a lot of love for dissenters.
I am one - about a great...many...things.
But I'll have to rely on you as authority on this "blanket image I've constructed in my head about anti-TLJ dissenters as a whole" because I have zero clues what you're on about.

By all means feel free to criticize blanket generalizers and demonizers of any camp - hell, I'll probably join in.
But throwing that kinda shade in my direction doesn't do you any credit whatsoever man!

 

So I hear the latest TLJ comic books retcon some aspects of the movie. Anyone else heard that? And if so, do you take any larger meaning from it?

 

Here's what Gary Whitta, the guy who wrote TLJ comic has to say about this... thing.

 

Dont't you see it as a problem? To have to wait three movies to see main characters get more developed? Or to hope at least...

 

I don't really mind it, because I don't care about Finn (yes, I just said this). I more interested in Kylo and he got some kind of development so far.

 

I wouldn't consider anything retconned.... it just has some scenes and dialogue that weren't in the movie's release, but that always happens in comic adaptations.

 

Does he go on to address why the differences exist (for example Admiral Ackbar's death)? Saying that every major creative decision on the adaptation was decided before the movie came out:

1. doesn't really address if there were retcons since the comic book is coming out after the movie
2. doesn't address if the differences in the comic book and the movie were considered major creative decisions

It's one thing to fill in the gaps, but there is a stark difference between Ackbar being swept off the deck of the Raddus into the vacuum in space instantaneously, and Ackbar proclaiming it was an honor to have served with everyone before he perishes. That's not just something that it would appear was edited out of the movie, there was a different set of dynamics altogether. That doesn't mean it wasn't decided and the movie changed later, just wondering if he actually addressed this issue more directly.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 19, 2018 ---

Hey see my response to Pawek. Additional dialogue that wasn't scene before is understandable. But Ackbar's death scene seems like a wholesale change. In the movie, he was blown out into space with no chance to react. In the comic book he addresses his colleagues before he perishes. That feels retcon-ish

 

It is only one single line of dialogue. I am not sure I consider that a wholesale change. His death was still just as meaningless as in the movie, he just got a chance to say so long. To me, that feels like something that was probably in the earlier drafts of the screenplay, maybe even went so far as to get filmed, but for one reason or another didn't survive the edit room.

Believe me, I would have loved a comic that reconned a lot out of the movie, I am just not seeing it.

 

And this is why TLJ has received so much back lash. Rian cared more about Kylo, and everyone else suffered in the process. One character doesn't make a movie. Nobody cares about the game when the number one team goes up against the last place team. They don't even televise those games. This is why championship games have the highest ratings. It's more interesting when their is a level playing field. Whatever momentum Kylo had from TFA. It's gone.