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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

?

Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    192 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    148 vote(s)
    44.0%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    200 vote(s)
    59.5%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    181 vote(s)
    53.9%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    128 vote(s)
    38.1%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    123 vote(s)
    36.6%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    176 vote(s)
    52.4%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    219 vote(s)
    65.2%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    147 vote(s)
    43.8%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    225 vote(s)
    67.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think my biggest beef with TLJ is that it’s the first Saga movie to put the narrative in neutral, meaning nothing really happened to advance anything.

    We are essentially back to Episode 4 with the Rebels (Resistance) vs The First Order. Now many have argued that this mirrors real life history with WW1 and WW2. That is true, but that doesn’t work in a movie sense because Episode 9 is the final film in the Saga/story and world history never has an ending.

    I think of Episode 9 and nothing on the radar really moves me. Rey’s new Jedi Order? Kylo Ren ruling the galaxy? Resistance vs First Order final battle? Rey vs Kylo final battle? Kylo redeemed by Rey? Luke Force Ghost? This stuff was all done in the PT/OT.

    That’s what I mean about TLJ putting the franchise in neutral.
     
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  2. Sparafucile

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    Wars do have ends however, so I suppose this saga could end WW2 while the OT was WW1. Nothing says (oh please no) they don't keep up with this cast and time line to continue into a new saga into a cold war ect... Personally, that seemed like the logical course. They created some new characters, they were young and hopefully the fan base loves them enough to keep the story going, using the OT and PT as a history to the universe. I honestly can't see how this wasn't their plan, at least loosely.

    I agree with you though, it's all presented as new until we look a little closer and realize it's simply a slight variation of a theme we've already seen. I've come to accept that maybe the familiarity of it is what some like about it.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Arguments may start when things are made personal and people feel the need to defend themselves. Speaking just for myself, my intention here is always to challenge opinions, not always about SW, that’s true, but opinions non the less. If reasoning does not hold water and words are exploited, misused or misinterpreted to fit into a narrative I’m likely to intervene, as I feel discussion suffers from neglecting this kind of fallacies. People are at liberty to think I’m picking a fight. I’m not, and there in no doubt in my mind that, concerning my intentions, I know best.

    To divide people in “hate it” vs “like it” groups is not truthful or helpful, I think. In these threads I notice a lot of “grey”: people liking things in TLJ and disliking others. What usually divides people IMO is inbuilt intolerance and unwillingness to understand the argument of “the other side”, not the fact or liking or disliking a film.

    I also think that people should not be excluded or made feel unwelcome in a thread just because they hold a different opinion from me and wish to challenge mine. I would not think them insecure, but interested in gaining some insight. I for one have learnt a lot in many interactions here about why TLJ is disliked by some and how much SW means to many. How and why a good film does not always connects emotionally with the audience. Sometimes it’s as an insignificant detail about the film which bothers some, others a complete sense of alienation with a character or a narrative. Being aware about these things is important to me. Sometimes I relate, sometimes I don’t. The bottom line is that discussing issues makes me learn a lot about people and I enjoy that.
     
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  4. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    >The problem is if someone hates the prequels it is absolutely ok to hate three movies, it is not considered as bashing and you are still a fan. But if you don't like the last movie, you moved clearly across the line and you can be called toxic, sexist or whatever.
     
  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I however like this trilogy precisely because it presents the issues we already know about as unresolved, as life itself. What is different in this trilogy are the characters, their different backgrounds within the world and their journeys: A scavenger, mistreated by fate yet incredibly good, very purposely referred to as “a girl”, because gender is an issue in this world too, as it is in ours, in particular to Kylo Ren. A storm trooper, a brainwashed soldier who “malfunctions” due to an inbuilt sense of right and wrong, and other characters trying to find their place in this world just as Luke, Leia and Han, very different characters, with very different backgrounds, did during the OT.
     
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  6. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Unfortunately, I don't care much about the new characters after the last movie because ( in my opinion ), the director shows no love for any of them, so why are we supposed to love them too ?

    Adding to this, it seems to me very clear to me that they let down Luke to promote these new characters. Instead of merging the old characters to the new story, they just pulled them out in a lazy way. Luke was too big, they just couldn't handle the weight of his presence on screen and they decided to throw him out of the bus.

    Many many fans waited 35 years to see Luke again on cinema and I do understand why some people felt betrayed by the way they showed him.

    How can you take the end of TFA seriously now that you know the outcome of the last scene ? It really felt weird, out of story and being deliberately to be like original.

    Since you take some radical choices, you have to consider that some people won't like it.
     
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  7. Sparafucile

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    I whole heartedly agree and I think our intentions probably run parallel from opposite sides of the debate. I always welcome debate and conversation and would never want to gate keep. Though I often agree with @Wolfpack on several points on TLJ specifically, I've never been a proponent to excluding anyone from entering this thread to question me and my stance. Just like you, the knowledge gained from those interactions goes far beyond the confines of SW. That there is pretty valuable stuff.

    I see where @Wolfpack comes from though, because "lovers" have their safe space and "haters" don't. I just don't see it as an issue or even a disadvantage. I personally feel a safe space would be a disadvantage because it shelters people from the opportunity to share ideas, challenge ways of thinking. I honestly think creating safe spaces is doing a disservice. If your belief is so untenable that you can't debate it, that there is reason to question that belief. I don't see doubting oneself as a bad thing, however I do see the opposite as potentially troublesome.
     
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  8. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    In my short experience here in this message board I have noticed people criticising the prequels more as films than anything else: their convoluted background stories, the wooden acting, the poor dialogue, the cgi, the lack of “show and not tell” etc. I have seen nothing but respect for George Lucas, even when people don’t like his ideas, and the actors involved in the prequels.

    However, I have read more than a few unfair attacks on RJ’s personality, attitude to his work and integrity. KK is also frequently described as incompetent, agenda driven, mercenary... the language used to describe TLJ is often inflammatory and designed to belittle not only the people who made the film but also those who enjoyed it. This is not criticism anymore, it’s bashing, because it is destructive and does not offer any valid suggestion or solution.
     
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  9. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Then you weren't around SW message boards from 1999-05, as it was the same civil war among the Pro and Anti PT fans. The only difference then is that there was no social media so you didn't get quotes 24/7 from all sides plastered on the internet. I can say I didn't even know that the PT was that disliked until I started posting on SW message boards around 2004 leading up to ROTS. Many fans got personal on Lucas calling him a hack, calling Rick McCallum a lackey, called for Gary Kurtz to return, called Jar Jar the worst thing since slice bread. Lucas actually started getting less credit for the OT as fans said that Marcia Lucas was the heart and soul, and Empire was the best cause Kirsh and Kurtz kept Lucas off the set. But like I said, there was no social media so Lucas would only snipe back at the fans in select interviews promoting the movies or DVD's. Rian Johnson and Lucasfilm are on Twitter all of the time to go back at the fans, so that has only made things worse.

    The problem is we are at #3 movie of this Trilogy and I honestly don't know the arc of any of these new characters. I honestly don't know the theme/narrative of this Trilogy is other then it's more SW (which for many fans is perfectly fine). The PT and OT had clear arcs for the characters, and it linked with the macro story that was being told. Luke/Vader redemption was a main link to the Emperor and the Empire. The Emperor had built power over 6 movies and he is finally revealed to us and his grand scheme of essentially replacing Vader with Luke. While Luke was trying to sway Vader that there was good in him and that domino effect would take down both the Emperor and The Empire. Han had an arc in the OT where he was a cynical 'scoundrel' in ANH, and by the time ROTJ rolls around, he is literally the General of the Republic Army and a loyal soldier (partly because of the cause and partly because of Leia).

    The PT works in a different way in that each character is a driving force to Anakin's downfall. Padme's love is partly his undoing, Palpatine's scheming and playing head games with him is partly his undoing, and his Mentor/Apprentice relationship with Kenobi is the last part of his undoing. That story is told over 3 movies, while the big story is that Palpatine is slowly taking over the Government, scarily in a legal way.

    I look at this Trilogy and as I said, it just feels like more SW for the sake of making more SW. So what if Kylo Ren is redeemed in Episode 9? So what if the Resistance beats the First Order in Episode 9? So what if Rey fights Kylo Ren in Episode 9? These are plot points/themes that have been explored in the past 6 movies, so it's nothing really new. And you're right that many things in life are unresolved, but did we really want 7,8,9 after all these years for that reason?

    In saying that, 'more SW for the sake of more SW' is exactly why I loved R1 and Solo. They are their own entity, and I say bring on more Standalone stories like that!
     
    #5129 Jedi77-83, Oct 23, 2018
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  10. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    This is not true. There were plenty of people who thought Lucas had no clue of what he was doing.

    The main difference is that it was Lucas work and if one people can mess with it, it is indeed George Lucas.

    To be honest, Johnson shoot first. It wasn't very friendly to post some Your Snoke theory sucks while he definitely bringed no theory at all. He didn't even try to peace things around at any moment.

    And it is the first time that I see employees messing with their own customers. Hidalgo fueled the thing too.

    I don't talk here about stupid harrassing people, I'm just talking about disappointed fans who were truly heartbroken because the story they loved was ended brutally.

    I feel for myself that Disney bringed us to the theater with the "Old crew" while showing no respect for them. They should have start a whole new story in another time and with brand new characters. The Skywalker saga was already told and it wasn't necessary to extend it while having nothing really important to narrate.
     
    #5130 Bandini, Oct 23, 2018
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  11. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Luke, Leia and Han were clearly used to get more people in the theaters for 7,8,9, and that is the most disappointing thing about this Trilogy. They didn't take the time to give them each a good arc or sendoff (IMO), as each one was used to sell each movie (Han in Episode 7, Luke in Episode 8 and Leia in Episode 9 before her passing).

    From a financial point of view, I can't argue with that thinking because it clearly worked as there is no way this Trilogy grosses as much as it did if it were just the Trilogy of Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo. But they sacrificed a lot of good will in the long run as I firmly believe a Trilogy of Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo would yield a smaller, yet less divisive fanbase.

    They could actually brought in a new generation of fans with a Trilogy of Rey, Finn and Kylo Ren, while still pleasing the old fans with standalone movies like R1 and Solo. But once you threw Luke, Leia and Han into the mix with Rey, Finn and Kylo Ren, then you had to please both fanbases and I believe it ended up backfiring on a portion of the fanbase. TLJ Civil War and Solo tanking at the box office was the perfect storm of decisions they made from the start.
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I like this trilogy and particularly because it has focused on character development. Since TFA and TLJ took place directly after each other and simply continued the story we saw on screen characters develop. So much of the character development in the OT was offscreen. We simply were left to assume Luke would work on his skills. Han would become more of a leader. Leia would take on more and more responsibility. Like in ESB we see Luke has found out how to use Force pull. We have Han complimented by General Rieekan on his leadership skills. Leia leading the evacuation.
     
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  13. Bandini

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    Well, we have to talk about that character development because from my eyes, almost every character at the start of TLJ is at the same place than at the end of this very movie except Kylo Ren who isn't for me a credible threat.

    And you point that there is no time between the 2 episodes and yet, it seems that it is two different stories and that all the plot points of TFA had been ignored in the second movie.

    There are things that I don't understand like Kylo Ren killing Han because he was upset ... with Luke. It just doesn't make sense as a whole saga to me. It looks like two different stories in each movie.
     
  14. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I 100% disagree with both the points.

    Poe goes from selfish cocky pilot to a leader.
    Finn goes from someone just wanting to run away and hide to becoming a member of the resistance
    Rey goes from a girl that is focused upon her abandonment to having a family and understanding that she has great power and has started to understand it.

    The only way TLJ ignored plot points is if you didnt like where they went. They are addressed.
    If you wanted Rey to be the child of a known character then TFA was ignored. They question was answered. Some wanted a different answer.
    If you wanted Snoke to be the next emperor and not just the tool that manipulated Kylo then TFA was ignored.
    If you wanted Luke to be the Luke from ROTJ, not the Luke setup by TFA then you felt his story was ignored.
     
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  15. Bandini

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    It's not what I want or what I don't want, it's how the story of TFA was told. There were plot points in TFA and almost none are adressed. There is no continuity between the two movies.

    The other problem in TLJ is that besides everyone is bullied, there is no one who does something logic, they all fail because they are portrayed as idiots. It could work in a comedy ( see Plinkett's review ) but it definitely didn't work with me.

    Just look at the plan where Finn and Rose are kissing while the canon is blowing their warmates away. Finn becoming a pilot just like that ( I didn't do the : I need a pilot line in TFA ) ...

    Everyone is dead ( 390 people of the resistance ) and everybody's smiling, no mourn, nothing.

    We have everything we need while there's nothing left ?

    It just doesn't make any sense to me but if you liked it, well, good for you.

    BTW, my theory for ep VII was so ... unique and original that your arguments clearly don't work with me. I'm not your everyday Rey is Luke's daughter dude.

    And I did know before my movie that my theories were wrong but I didn't come to see ep VIII to hate it. I even put a day off to watch it before being spoiled. I kinda regret it to be honest.
     
    #5135 Bandini, Oct 23, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  16. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    @Bandini and @Jedi77-83, I know that Lucas and the prequels went though a fair amount of bashing back in the day and probably still do, but I have never seen them spoken in those terms here in this forum. Also I have seen many offering their fair criticism of TLJ and expressing their dislike for the film without making assumptions about RJ of the type “RJ doesn’t have love for the new characters”, which is very different from saying “TLJ is a bad movie because of this and that”. If you have to make assumptions about the “love” a filmmaker has for the material they produce, or are inspired by, to understand why you don’t like a film, instead of using the film itself, sorry but your criticism is not valid anymore... It’s like saying: “I don’t like your pizza because you didn’t cook it with love and because you’re not Italian...” rather than “I don’t like your pizza because it has too much cheese and the dough is too soggy.”

    As @KeithF1138 has said, TFA’s questions were addressed in TLJ. One may not like how they were answered, but they were answered. Some stories remain untold and maybe addressed in IX, or maybe not... The ST story is not finished yet. The complete trajectory of the whole story and the final message has not been shown yet. So far it looks like the story could go in different directions. The new characters are well realised, they have been challenged ( more than “bullied”), they have grown in front of our eyes, they have learnt and that’s all thanks to good storytelling.

    This trilogy is has not been written yet, it’s being written. I think Disney and LFL very intentionally wanted to replicate the creative process of the OT (in which nothing was really planned from one film to the next).
     
    #5136 Kylocity, Oct 23, 2018
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  17. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think anyone can cherry pick at certain plot points for any SW movie and say that it didn't line up with what they wanted, as I think you're not being fair in that respect. The larger narrative is what everyone has a problem with, not this and that. For example, I was never in love with the Luke/Leia sibling plot point in 1983, but it doesn't bring the movie down for me because it helps the larger narrative.

    -So it's not that fans wanted Snoke to be the next Emperor per say, it's the fact that he was the only real threat to Rey in the Trilogy. Kylo Ren loses to Rey in TFA (even though she has no training), so how will there be any drama if they fight in Episode 9? Where Snoke was controlling her like a rag doll (and seemed to be the one threat to Luke), so the one big threat for Episode 9 is gone.

    -I have no problem with Rey Nobody, but TLJ played the angle that she wanted to redeem Kylo the same way Luke wanted to redeem Vader. If she is not a Skywalker/Solo, then why does she even care about Kylo Ren? Unless they are playing the Rey-Lo angle, which is a real turnoff for me as she is falling in love with a guy who killed his father and tried to Luke? The point of the story is that Luke was the only one who felt Vader could redeemed simply because there was a father/son dynamic, and Yoda/Kenobi would never feel that way. Why would Rey Nobody care to redeem Kylo Ren if there is no relation to them? Now if the narrative were that she were Luke's daughter, then her redeeming her cousin Kylo Ren makes a lot more sense, because it continues the narrative that it's about the Skywalker/Solo family.

    -I mentioned this earlier by why is Luke in Jedi clothes when he meets Rey if he cut himself off from the Force and doesn't want anything to do with the Jedi Order? Don't you feel that JJ/RJ are playing a trick on the audience by having him still LOOK like a Jedi, yet he is clearly not embracing that in TLJ as he chucks the lightsaber over his shoulder? If JJ/RJ were on the same page, then Luke should have been dressed as ANH Luke when Rey encounters him, and then fans would know that something was up?

    Again, I don't think it's fair to call out fans with the argument 'you didn't get the story you wanted' because nobody has a specific story in mind when they walk into a movie, but we all have ideas of where it can go. My problem is the overall narrative doesn't line up with the actions of the characters, and I feel a big part of that is JJ and RJ were not on the same page, and I guarantee there will be some things in Episode 9 that will not jive up either.
     
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  18. KeithF1138

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    Have you really watched EP7 closely? JJ Abrams setup why Rey would win.
    Throughout the whole film he showed how powerful Chewie bow-caster was. On multiple occasions he showed it not just stopping someone, but acting more like a grenade launcher not just stopping a stormtrooper, but blasting the trooper yards away. The bow-caster hits ground and causes an explosion sending troopers flying.

    Kylo is told by Snoke to bring Rey to him. Not kill her. Like Vader not slaughtering Luke when they fight in ESB.
    Rey is deliberately shown to be very adept with a melee weapon.

    So first Kylo is shot by the bow-caster badly wounding him. He catches up to them in the woods (not right outside the door of the base) and he is still bleeding out. So it is safe to assume he is using a great deal of his force powers simply keeping himself going. He is not anywhere near 100% and yet he still has her under control and on the brink of being defeated until she gives herself to the force (like Luke does in ANH). Didnt even mention that he was wounded again by Finn.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 23, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 23, 2018 ---
    What did you think when Luke decided to self-exile he was first going to go shopping before stopping on Ahch-To? Why was Obi-Wan in exile on Tatooine still dressed as a Jedi? To be clear my point is Luke was dressed the way he was is because that is the clothing he owns.
     
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  19. Bandini

    Bandini Jedi Commander

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    Obi Wan was looking for Luke.

    Luke went to the first jedi temple, it's weird he came here to cut himself from the Force dressed like a jedi ...
     
  20. DarthSnow

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    I know what you're saying, but I think that's just the point; Luke has clearly been conflicted for a long time. At least it seemed to me that way, as well as very sorrowful about the conclusion that he came to about the Jedi. And I think a lot of what he was trying to tell Rey about the Jedi needing to end was him (still) trying to convince himself of the same thing.

    ...what? I'm seriously lost as to the point you are trying to make.

    At the end of TFA Finn was in a coma after fighting to protect Rey, and at the beginning of TLJ he woke up from said coma yelling "Rey!"
    Also.. at the end of TFA Snoke told Hux to bring Ren to him to complete his training, and in TLJ Ren is onboard the Supremacy being tested by Snoke...
    Also.. at the end of TFA when Rey hands Luke a saber, and in TLJ he grabs the saber..

    What are the plot points that you would consider discarded?
     
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