THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I have always loved Leia, she was confident, she was clever, she was brave, she was sassy. What’s not to like? But I love Rey too. She’s tough and resilient, yet still caring and kind. The different between both is perhaps that Leia has more status and therefore more confidence... personally I have met women both like Leia and like Rey in my life, have equal admiration for both and find the representation of both in the SW films equally attractive.

That could be actually interesting material for the next film.

 

"The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize control of the galaxy."

They sure seem pretty strong to me.... if that isn't as strong as the Empire, I don't know what is.... when did the Empire ever whittle the Rebellion down to so few people, they could all fit quite comfortably on the Millennium Falcon?

The problem is that while we are told they reign, when we see them on screen, they're acting like Larry, Moe and Curly.

 

I find it hard to believe that no one involved with TLJ came forward and said this sucks and going to piss people off.
Are they all that daft? To scared to speak up? Someone had to have known how this would make many fans upset?

 

I gotta tell ya, it sure seems to me that Mark Hamill did everything he could to strongly hint to RJ the above.... it just fell on deaf ears.

 

And Daisy Ridley said on Good Morning America in May 2017, “I pulled Rian aside after I read the script and said, we need to talk!!!”

Ridley and Hamill knew it wouldn’t go over well with the fans as they were warning fans promoting it early on.

 

You know what's really baffling? That a long time a vet and a newcomer BOTH saw this going sideways and the director somehow couldn't (or didn't care). Maybe Rian really was the Joker, and he just wanted to watch it all burn. Here's what I don't understand from the perspective of the Execs:

If you had any inkling about doing other SW movies that wouldn't be centered on or about the Skywalker story (such as the sagas being penned by the GOT writers), if those movies and sagas would afford you the opportunity to expand the SW universe, what strategic sense did it make to subvert fan expectations in the established universe with established characters?

Why risk angering fans who wanted to see Luke become a Master akin to what was in the EU? What was the upside to telling the story about a Luke that no one recognized or asked for? You have other movies waiting in the wings where you can create a whole new kind of hero, and a new story, new technology, creatures, new combatants. You have all the room in the world to take risks there, why do it with Luke and the OT elements?

 

Maybe the rule of two applies to this too lol.

Edit: Oops, just realized this was from the first page lol... didn't mean to necro that haha.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 26, 2018 ---

I usually avoid talking about women in movies, especially in terms of feminism and such. I think there are varied thoughts on feminism and not all feminists believe in achieving equality the same way. There are different ideologies and sometimes they could be conflicting, especially on how to get there.

For me, I'm mostly okay with Rey, except in that I feel she needs some more backstory to explain her skill. I mentioned before that before TLJ I lurked these threads for a plausible explanation to her ability to do mind trick, and when I read a theory that she may have had previous training that was blocked, and Kylo broke that block by mind reading her, I was satisfied and I had zero issue. I don't think it's too late for JJ to do something similar in IX, but it will feel more contrived now if he does. The novel's explanation of force download doesn't work for me at all. I really don't care if she's a plot armored hero, I just want a decent explanation to that power and mostly, her skill.

I have a bigger issue with the Holdo/Leia/Poe dynamic. I have no issue with Leia stunning Poe, it's a violent act, but one out of necessity and controlled. I even don't have an issue with the slap, with a caveat. I think Leia should be remorseful of the slap, even ashamed. Good guys shouldn't be abusing good guys to shame them, that simply isn't good leadership. It also sends a conflicting message to the audience, but that's a smaller issue to the first. It weakens Leia as a leader and diplomat. I think there are ways to explore that flaw in her that could be very interesting, but it's never addressed afterward even if there was a great place that could have turned another cringey scene into something deeper. I'll get to that later.

Then there's Holdo.

I get the impression Holdo, somewhat like Canto Bight, was rushed and not given the same attention to detail than the Luke/Rey/Kylo story line. There were easy fixes though. I think the big issue is that RJ wanted to lead the audience into suspecting her as a possible double agent. It made her character unlikeable to start, and the turn about into hero was sloppily done imo. She had every right to refuse to give Poe information, but she had a duty to be more professional about it. Her depiction at the beginning places her pretty firmly in the starts with "b" and ends with "itch" category. I think it was a clumsy attempt to some sort of feminist message that kind of gets lost and distorted as I don't think it was properly thought out. I think they had a few options to go with and never quite mapped it out.

I can think of a couple options that could have worked better.

A) Keep her as she is, but have Leia dress her down for her lack of professionalism, losing control and the faith of the crew (even Connix lost faith in her), and that's what propels her to her heroic action. That would have been a little more believable then to only have her praised. It's like they're afraid to show that a female can do wrong in a position of authority. I think showing her as flawed would have endeared her more to fans rather than to try and maintain this façade of perfection.

B) Don't lead the audience into thinking she's possibly a double agent. In a crew of 300 or so, it's pretty hard to imagine that Poe never met her. I think this was a subversion that the movie could have skipped without losing anything to the story. Make her that professional leader who says the right things instead of relishing in dressing down her subordinates. Leave that to the empire. I know they needed a catalyst for Canto Bight, but I'm not saying she divulges the plan, just that she's not so quick to throw things in her subordinates face. Let Poe hear that from somebody else. Poe can then act irresponsibly and they can still have the designated under thought plot point for Finn and Rose to do something while the real story is going on. Yes, men can do wrong in positions of authority too, not just men named Lando.

In either scenario, while Poe is unconscious, I think it would have been far more appropriate for that short talk between Leia and Holdo be about how they failed Poe. Leia by her slap and Holdo by her baiting, style of command and snarkiness. Or, had she been the more professional version, questioning Leia about her slap. Have the good guys hold each other to higher standards. I honestly thought for much of the movie that Holdo was the Lando of this trilogy, and about facing the way they did, without addressing their errors and instead trying to justify them just felt wrong. It was an odd decision that I can't help but feel has some sort of distorted feminist like message that most people don't identify with. Female flawlessness even in light of clear mistakes.

I can understand people believing it's not feminist, because I don't think it's how most people view feminism. However, I think some people believe that Hollywood has a distorted view of the average person on feminism and that's where some of the backlash comes from. It could just as easily be sloppy writing, mistakes while editing ect... the only problem with that is that RJ says he wouldn't change a thing, which promotes the thought that it was intentional to make the females appear flawless despite what many view as obvious character flaws that are not addressed within the story. Instead, they are glossed over. You see, the issue isn't so much with the female leaders, or even female leaders making mistakes. It's female leaders who make mistakes but don't even recognize that they did. Either make them truly flawless, which is fine, or make them have to answer for their mistakes. It doesn't have to be loss of command, but at least show remorse, send a message of forgiveness among allies.

 

What is the story group doing is mystery.

 

I started to think about this when Rian Johnson's name was announced even before Episode 8 was coming out. I remember his episodes from Breaking Bad and movies like Brick and thought they were very well done, but his style was not for everyone. Sort of like David Fincher and Alien 3, where he is a great director with movies like Seven and Panic Room, but probably not the best choice for a franchise movie that has to appeal to the masses.

I actually like Rian Johnson's style, but he would have been a perfect choice for a Standalone movie or a new trilogy with new characters/new story, rather then a Saga movie that has to jive with the previous movies on a narrative level and little things too.

 

I don’t think RJ wanted to make Holdo flawless.

What RJ clearly wanted to do was to subvert audiences expectations about the somewhat cliché trope of a hero like Poe uncovering a double agent in the resistance or proving someone “cutting his wings” wrong. Holdo was intentionally made female, funny looking and harsh yet softly spoken to encourage mistrust. I don’t think the audience was never expected to warm up to her but to understand her plan and legitimate concerns once they were uncovered.

Think about it. If Holdo had been played by a man in uniform with a loud commanding voice like let’s say the actor who played captain canady (a suggestion I read somewhere), how would you have felt about the character? do you think the twist RJ had devised would have worked the same? Do you think the audience would have mistrusted holdo so much? We see plenty of aggressive and “mean” male leaders on screen ending up being complete legends, so no, I don’t think so.

I think RJ was somewhat clever in using such a feminine woman with all those softly aggressive mannerisms, that you called “bitchy”, to both subvert our expectations and also make us see that there is nothing wrong in leading quietly and safely, without “bombing” drama.

I’ve also read somewhere that holdo as a character cannot win among the audiences. Misogynists hate her simple because she’s a woman and some brand of feminists hate her because she doesn’t look and act more like a man in a position of power. Food for thought.

 

I disagree as Poe was a very likeable character in TFA and was portrayed as the elite elite of the Resistance, so any Male General talking to him that way in TLJ would come off just as unlikeable to the public. That is my beef with TLJ in that Poe wasn't this mad-man crazy pilot in TFA, and then all of the sudden he is Maverick from Top Gun. Now it could have worked with Leia/Poe as her calling him out could have been portayed in a more motherly way (they could have even played the angle that she saw him as the son who could replace the void of Ben Solo). They had that banter at the beginning of TLJ where you could understand her being tough on him, but it wasn't done in a condescending way.

It has nothing to do with her being a women, she is just isn't developed enough and just comes out of nowhere to have this type of devisive role. If you remember Leia starts talking smack to Luke/Han the minute they meet her in 1977. She was beloved because she smart, yet snippy, tough yet still likeable. Nobody was crying in 1977 that Lucas was trying to smack down men with a powerful women character, because she was a good/developed character. Holdo is a horrible character who isn't developed, and it has nothing to do with her being a women.

 

Actually, I had a very hard time with "The Fly" episode ...

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 26, 2018 ---

The best way to subvert expectations in this manner is to make Poe the double agent and tie this with how he escaped Jakku and why the First Order was coming to Jakku shortly after him.

I've not been twisted in TLJ. Every supposed twist was far fetched.

Leia dying then not. Luke not dying then dying. Snoke's monologue with the focus on the lightsaber at his side. My jaw didn't drop anytime.

The only thing I didn't expect was Luke being rude and grumpy.

Edit : My bad. My jaw dropped when they sent Leia flying. I was like OK, this is gutsy and then she came back and I had my first facepalm. I became to feel trolled at this very moment.

 

Exactly, as it shows that Rian Johnson's style isn't for everyone. He reminds of a Tim Burton, David Fincher, even a Quentin Tarantino, where each one of them have a base of fans that love their work and also a base of moviegoers who either don't like their work or just don't understand it. Rian Johnson fits that mold as either you love em or hate em, and that is the wrong person for a Saga movie that has to appeal to the masses.

 

You see, that’s what I mean. Holdo was not designed to be likable. She was designed to challenge Poe, or at least RJ’s interpretation of the character of Poe. I think the only thing RJ is asking us to do, perhaps not very successfully for many, is to see that Holdo had always the best interest of the fleet at heart and decided to be discreet about it.

Also, I should add that Leia was never devised to challenge anyone really. Han always won her over with his charm, and the motherly thing with Poe wouldn’t have worked either. Leia is too close to Poe to be objective about his behaviour, the good and the bad, and to expose his presumptousness and overconfidence to the audience.

 

She just comes and go. I neither love her or hate her, she comes in, has 5 minutes on screen and then she dies ... I just don't care about her especially when her sacrifice bringed actually the minimum because 95% of the resistance has died ( In the same plan where Rose and Finn are kissing ... ).

 

But the way Holdo handled things (she won't reveal the plan to anyone) contradicts TFA when they are in the war room before the attack on Starkiller Base, so that is why it is so jarring for people. If you watch TFA, everyone has input on how to destroy Starkiller Base, Leia, Han, Poe, and other secondary character who their name escapes me. Poe comes off in TFA as a great pilot, very likeable guy, and someone that they really trust for tactical opinions. Then you get to TLJ and he is a loose canon, who needs to be controlled by Leia and eventually Holdo. You go from this group in TFA who seem to be working together regarding Starkiller Base to TLJ where Holdo is acting like The Emperor.

Again, it's not the characters, it's not whether they are men or women, it is the fact that it is not executed well and doesn't jive with what happened in TFA. Go back and watch ANH, ESB, and ROTJ, and all of the Rebel Meetings have the same conformity, where TFA and and TLJ are like night and day.

 

But the spark that will light the fire that will burn down the FO is still alive and well, so there is hope

The kids between Rose and Finn was indeed unfelicitous... Maybe JJ will make that romance come across a bit cuter.

 

I figured it out and I think many people will agree with me. She just doesn't fit, whatever is her gender, it is just pointless.

If there is one character who had to do the hyperspace move, it was admiral Akhbar. They made him die off screen and put that woman here just for her to be a woman. She's not legitimate and anyobdy else but Akhbar wasn't legitimate to do that ( except Leia ).

It's a saga, you can't pretend it's not and that things are coming off your hat like that with an admiral noone in the fleet has a clue about who she is while one of the bravest character of the whole saga had to die off screen.

And there is many disrespect for the saga like that ( Yoda acting like fake Yoda, Luke being grumpy ) and it just didn't fit with the big picture.

It's like the production didn't have a clue about who these characters were, it's mind boggling.

 

I know exactly what you mean. My only take on it is that RJ made a creative decision about how to broaden the character development of Poe and make him more 3 dimensional, poke at the possible flaws in such a skilled, confident and cocky ("who talks first?") pilot to make his arc fit the mentor/apprentice dynamic.... He could have decided to keep using him as a likeable and handsome guy with good flying and tactical skills, but he didn't. He obviously wanted to move the character in another direction: a leadership position.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 26, 2018 ---

You see, I don't agree with that... It is not like they made Holdo a woman to have a woman in a position of power in the film. It's more like they made her a woman to "play" with the audience's expectations about a woman looking and behaving like her on screen... It wasn't exactly a political move on the part of RJ. It was more a filmmakers trick.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 26, 2018 ---

But she didn't need to me admiral anyone... or be likable or anything... She was merely a character devised to broaden the scope of one of our heroes...

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 26, 2018 ---

Ah here here... You're shooting in all directions now.

 

Let's agree to disagree completely then.