THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

@Sparafucile
First: you’re right. There are surely different ways to “perceive” feminism or women improvement.
Just because of that, I personally find quite weird - and frustrating- that we only hear the same
things being repeated over and over again.
I mean, I can understand why there are those who consider that movie feminist- and those who
considered it too much feminst - but I seriously cannot understand why almost anyone is underlining why it may
be not considered that good for the cause.
Because it’s pretty obvious - imo - that there are aspects, details, that may be at least discussed
in such terms.
Just because there are those different takes.
The actual situation, it’s... weird to say at least.

I can only guess, that is only due to the political climate and by the fact that people defending the movie
had used the argument “if you don’t like it’s because you’re sexist” and because too many of
those who didn’t like it are speaking about so called SJWs agenda, without even
realizing that in doing so they’re giving the hight ground to whoever wants to diminish their arguments.

Unfortunately, it’s a polarizing situation. And different voices, sensibilities, are
getting shut.

That’s a shame, I think, not matter what.

That said, when it comes to Rey and her powers... I do feel the same as you do.
But when I say that she is not a strong female character, I don’t think about her power.
Power is not what defines a strong female character.
Her attitude, her personality do.
You don’t need an heroine of this kind of movies to have a strong female character.
You don’t need a woman with power at all.
Even a slave or an housewife may be a strong female character.
As long as she has... something inspiring to do or say.

I don’t see that in Rey, especially in TLJ.
There’s any moment when I look at her thinking... whau.
That’s inspirational indeed!
Or that’s how I’d like to be able to react in a similar situation.
Things like that.
I’m talking about, spiritual strenght, not power.
Because that makes a character - male or female - strong, not just powerful.
Look at Kylo. He’s surely powerful, not strong.

For those familiar with GOT, Daenerys Targaryen is powerful and strong.
So is Cersei. She has another kind of power (and she may
not have dragons) and she’s a strong woman too.
So was Katleyn Stark. Without being a queen and without any drangons.
She was a mother, period, and a strong woman.
I see Brienne as a powerful woman, but also as fragile human being.
Etc...

About Holdo... to me she works better as a villain.
Or as an incompetent leader.
Because not. I don’t think the purpose was to let the audience suspect there was
a spy or whatever that may justify her attitude.
That’s us trying to make a sense of what simply doesn’t have sense.

I mean... we are talking about the very same storyline whose premise is that
sacrificing lives is wrong, but ends with her sacrificing herself (instead of X droid).
A story line in which Poe gets demoted because he disobey order, and after he
put in place a munity, the very same woman that demoted him and her best friends
speak about how much they like him.
Then finally Leia tells “follow him”, because he’s ready. He has proved he’s the right guy.
After Luke sacrificed himself too and Finn was lectured because he was trying to do the same.

I mean... it’s madness.
Totally.
Or just plot device aferter plot device and who cares about logic.
That’s just how I cannot help but take it.

That said, I agree in theory, that Poe’s arc should have been one that tests his qualities
as a leader.
But the problem is - beside the fact that he is a 34 years old commander of your fleet that should known
that lesson he apparently learns in TLJ - that if the goal is - as it is - to make of him
the new Leia (“follow him”) he didn’t need to understand strategy or how and who to save/sacrifice.
But politics, diplomacy.

So to me the entire arc... is pointless, regardless its madness.

I would have love to see him - for instance - unsure if to accept the help of someone
who wasn’t that willing to fight the first order untill the day before.
Or not willing to help someone like that.
Some politician and system that had not be that kind with the resistance untill the FO
did what it did with the Starkiller.
Butting heads because of that with Leia.
And understanding, in the end, that is not how you build up a rebellion.
Just an idea...

 

So tell me at the beginning of ANH how many systems did the Empire control? 1, a few, most of the known galaxy?
So tell me at the beginning of TLJ how many systems did the FO control? 1, a few, most of the known galaxy?
So tell me at the beginning of ANH how many battlegroups did the Empire have? 1, a few, hundreds?
So tell me at the beginning of TLJ how many battlegroups did the FO have? 1, a few, hundreds?

My take was at the beginning of TLJ the FO had a few maybe several battle groups and had no control over systems. In weeks they would likely control many, but none yet.

 

I however do see that strength in Rey. In the way she doesn’t give up when Luke refuses to help her or train her, in the way she tries to understand and have compassion for her opponent, in the way she poured her heart out to kylo Ren and still maintained her dignity, in the way she looked at Finn while he was taking care of Rose in the Falcon.

This is actually a very common trope: “the spy” who infiltrates and contradicts the hero. Another one: the superior who contradicts the hero and ends up being wrong. The first scenario was actually the first thing that crossed my mind when I saw the first exchange between Poe and holdo. The second scenario also crossed my mind during that first viewing ... RJ subverting both was actually the best pay off after that rather boring and slow burn conflict in the resistance ship...

I have always felt that in SW the goodies always act towards the droids as if they were children... to sacrifice a cute droid, an artificial intelligence clearly not developed enough to accept self sacrifice, may come across as somewhat cruel.

Between holdos and Finns sacrifices ( or attempt of sacrifice) there is a crucial difference: holdo is trying to save the last of the resistance. It is a clear headed decision, like Luke’s. Finn’s would have been a sacrifice motivated by a moment of passion, an impulse to win, to destroy, with no calculation of what benefit would have been achieved if carried out to completion.

 

@Kylocity about Rey agree to disagree.

About Holdo...
That of the spy may be a plot trope. It surely is... but when it is, it’s made obvious sooner or later.
Because it’s an essential detail of the plot that has to be reveled to let
people understand if not what’s going on, what was really going on.
In our case, nothing in the movie explicitly points to that.
But let’s pretend for a moment that was the case. That she was afraid of a spy.
Beside that it’s ridiculous to suspect Poe, the man that just blew up the Starkiller and took down that super super
Star Destroyer... what’s the secret she wants to keep safe? That they are going to Crait (see Leia
words to Poe).
Well, all the survivors, no exclusion, get on board of the escape ships destination Crait.
If the problem is that there could be a spy... then that spy is among them.
Basically fuc**** up the plan (going unknowingly on Crait) she was trying to keep secret.
Makes not sense.
I honestly stand my case, it’s us, just because that is a traditional trope, trying to find a reasonable excuse.
Something that is not only: they needed a plot device.
And the device was... she won’t tell the plan. Because...Who cares?
And look, one may not care. I am among those who do.

The droids... What I always loved in SW and in other franchises or movies that have artcificial intelligences
is exactly the ambiguity of their nature.
So I get your point. But I still value human life a little bit more.
Even more so... because just like you may erase C3PO’s memory, I am pretty sure that from time to time, you may back up and save it, so that you may put it in another brand new droid if previous one gets destroyed.
So much so... I’ll bet that will happen in IX. Just because it rhymes, it’s like poetry...
We shall see...

About the sacrifices.. I don’t see that difference.
They are all trying to save the resistance.

 

No, no, the trope is that the person contradicting the hero IS the spy or double spy if you want, a traitor. That person would be holdo, not Poe.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 26, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 26, 2018 ---

It goes without saying that I do too. But I’m just alluding to a morality that seems to be part of this fictional world rather than condonig it.

 

Could be that jj thought when he rebooted Star Trek and changed the timeline and everyone was okay with it, he thought he could do anything with Star Wars. Not realizing that die hard fans would take issue with his trying to make the three main characters secondary to the story.

Like I said before. The end of the skywalker saga ended in episode vi. They could’ve done so many things with the main characters and brought billy d in on episode vii. But that would’ve cost money.

This is a galaxy that is nearly fully explored. To have a rebellion that lasts for 40 years is lazy writing. Sure history repeats itself, but everything about this trilogy is the same as the OT. Only bigger. They could’ve split the galaxy into quadrants and only had one quadrant rebelling. At this stage of the game wouldn’t everybody be in this war? A galaxy of trillions but only thousands are fighting.

What does the senate say about this war. Was snoke in charge of the senate? Are moffs in charge like in the OT?

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2018 ---

One thing I think would’ve helped with the Leia, holdo, Poe thing; if they would’ve had a meeting with akbar, Leila, holdo, Poe and anybody else that would’ve been important enough to be in the meeting and set a game plan like in Star Trek TNG. To leave the subordinates in the dark of the plan is useless. You would think the people in charge would want everyone on the same page so they all can do their best to make the plan work. Then if the plan doesn’t make sense, the audience can agree or disagree and Poe can do his mutiny and learn his lesson.

I don’t care whose in charge or what sex they are. Usually people in charge are in charge for a reason. And most subordinates know who the people in charge are.

I understand not all characters are meant to be liked. But they had ackbar there. Why even create holdo? Why kill ackbar? I think holdo should’ve been introduced in a future saga. They could’ve done so much with her and the actress who played her.

 

I agree with you about Poe, that his shortcomings at his age should probably not have been military in nature, but political. Having Holdo as a leader of a separate Resistance coming to Leia's aide and having to deal with Poe instead would have been far more satisfying. Poe struggling as a commander not on the battle field, but in negotiation would fit more with his character as we seen him in TFA. I wonder if RJ or the story group hadn't initially planned that and then revised it for the purpose of time, since the movie was already dragging on.

I also agree with plot device over plot device. I think RJ got caught up in his own "genius". I think he overthought some ideas to the detriment of the story in some instances. I think that's what many fans find frustrating, because we can see the potential for a great story, but it just seems over done. I think RJ is someone who probably needs someone to place limits on him, because I believe he is very smart, but sometimes his ideas get convoluted. He needs someone to ground him so as he can see the contradictions he makes within his stories themes and sub themes..

As for Holdo, I think she works if you remove her initial dialogue with Poe, or if you show her earlier and have that plot a bit later in the movie. The problems is that would add time to an already long movie and I think is that RJ was a little too ambitious with his movie, I think he had a lot of ideas, good ideas, but not enough time to properly execute them. Again, RJ would have needed someone to say "You can't have this convoluted story point, it drags on too long and can't be properly done. Simplify it or change it entirely.".

As to Rey, I feel if we got the sense her power was earned, we'd view her differently. @Kylocity is right I believe that there are good attributes to Rey, but the problem that isn't acknowledged is the frustration some fans have with it being unearned. Anakin in TPM is annoying because he has a similar problem, the difference is he's not shown as being a leader of any kind, he's just lucky, which is the force manifesting itself. Most of what he's doing are mistakes, which for most fans is still annoying, because like Rey when he falls, he falls up. By the time we see him again in AotC, it's understood he's had years of training and probably some battle experience. He has different ideas and challenges the status quo, but that isn't bad of itself, it's his entitled attitude that gets him into trouble, his sense of superiority. I think Rey is much viewed as that young Anakin of TPM, even still now. By IX she'll be somewhere around AotC Anakin, depending on time jump. She's older than TPM Anakin, but just as naïve as him in the Force, as well as naturally adept. She's older and obviously somehow has a good heart living on her own on Jakku. Part of the issue is that in of itself seems to be a contradiction. We're made to believe her overwhelming goodness is nature, not nurture. Because nurture would have had her learned how to survive in a cruel world. TPM Anakin had a mother to teach him, Rey has no one. Luke had his uncle and aunt (who act as parents), Rey has no one. Yet she somehow leaves that world unharmed, untainted. I know what you mean, you'd expect her to have some grand wisdom from that. A persisting idea handed down to her that she clings to, whether from a parent, mentor or friend.

I get it's not so much about power, but about wisdom. I don't think she's earned that wisdom yet, things have gone fast and furious since she first discovered her powers, I don't think she's had much time to sort that out. That's basically what she's trying to do with Luke, but he's like a teacher who has a distorted ideas of his base knowledge. She's forced to question him because she can see his jaded ideas don't add up. Some of what he teaches is right, some is tainted, and she isn't sure which is which. Which to me it would make sense that Rey would struggle. So that she manages to fall upward despite having a flawed mentor makes her somewhat of a conundrum. I find her character hard to read, maybe because she's a smaller cog in a larger story than characters like Luke and Anakin. The focus in the PT and OT focused in on Anakin and Luke, but Rey has to share so much time with Kylo and Luke that I don't feel her character has received the same attention. The audience is expected to give her a pass based on those previous stories, but I can't because her story seems distinct. Her motivations are not as clear, her goals are not as clear, thus her decisions don't seem as organic. Her backstory doesn't seem to mesh with what we see. I think that's why Rey needs more backstory, a mentor or training of some kind. Believing she got this wisdom on her own seems unlikely and once again, unearned. Very few stories do we get someone who hasn't learned from their past.

You look at Superman, his origins have Jor-El, Jonathan and Martha Kent. Spiderman has his uncle and aunt. Wolverine is more anti-hero until he meets Xavier, and his goodness is explained by his long life but loss of memory. It's what makes him fascinating is that we wonder where he gets his morality, but that's carefully interwoven into his character. We know there's an intricate past with glimpses of memory. With Rey, we're expected to just accept without even much of a hint. Worse, we're now made to believe her parents were scum. It just doesn't add up. Politeness, civility, charity, empathy are learned traits, where did she get it from? Jakku doesn't seem like the place that would foster such qualities. Once again, like her powers, like her failing upward, her very nature is unearned, unexplained. I think IX desperately needs a reveal on this. Honestly, it would be a huge failing if there wasn't.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2018 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2018 ---

There's a Star Trek TNG episode called "Measure of a Man" that I find closely resembles this. In the episode, a man that hasn't been met before comes and makes claims on Data, clearly an antagonist. I find this situation similar.

I don't think it's about Holdo being female, it's about a known and liked quantity that is demeaned and talked down to. I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I do think it's nuanced.

I think if you are to introduce a mean leader with a good heart, more story needs to be devoted to that to depict that. Holdo could have worked with more screen time to show her as nuanced, in what we got there wasn't enough. So no, I don't think a male character with the amount of screen time we got would have worked. I would refer back to Star Trek TNG again, when a captain replaces Capt Picard (he's a prisoner of the Cardassians). That captain talks down to Ryker and others and he's not liked by the audience. First impressions are important, it's really hard to change that perception regardless of gender.

I think part of the issue that you praise is that it was similar to race baiting, but gender baiting instead. Maybe trying to make us feel guilty at the end and rethink why we didn't like her or give her the benefit of the doubt. As you point out she's a feminine woman, and the implication is that's why we didn't like her. I think that's flawed however because she makes a very bad first impression then isn't given enough screen time to redeem herself. The audience is perfectly justified to dislike her and her leadership style not because she's a woman, but because she's authoritarian. She contradict previous leaders we've seen in SW in the past.

 

A few corrections on my last post.

The last line, I meant Rebel leaders. I'm certainly not referring to Empire or FO leaders, of course they would use vile tactics to get their subordinates to do what they want them to.

Also, referring to Picard and the new Captain. Picard was a prisoner to the Cardassians (off topic, whenever I watch a rerun of ST with Cardassians, I always think of the Kardashians lol) and the Federations appointed a new captain prior to Picard's mission. Much like Holdo, we were not meant to like him. Unlike Holdo, we were never meant to like him and Troi even states that he was acting confident but doubted himself. With such little screen time, the writers at TNG knew not to make his trajectory too convoluted, there simply wasn't time. I believe that to be true about Holdo also.

 

Absolutely, the audience was supposed to find her behaviour suspect, I agree. It is true that the resistance usually seems to work all together when planning strategy and is friendly and trustful with the heroes. Holdo not doing so, which was in fairness her right as a military leader, came across as certainly odd, placing the audience almost automatically against her.

But, you see, it is not like RJ wanted us to feel bad because we found a woman with all these characteristics suspect... He merely wanted to cheat our expectations. As a storyteller and film maker he knows we all have inbuilt expectations formed after years of being reared watching films, in particular adventure and war films, or reading novels. With Holdo, I think, RJ was playing with these inbuilt expectations, not trying to accuse us of being sexist by automatically disliking a woman with a certain look and attitude, but using this inbuilt dislike. Because (yes, I’m going to say this) it is ok to dislike certain female characters we see on screen: It is expected from us. Remember that the film makers are somewhat “forcing” us to engage us with their 2 hour stories. It makes sense that they use expectations and story tropes as a shortcut to reach us and to surprise us. I for example when I saw TLJ for the first time thought that Holdo was an annoying haughty woman and probably a baddy. I swallowed the bait. At the end I thought she was equally annoying but I understood where she was coming from. I don’t really analyse my dislike for her and I certainly don’t think that RJ is trying to tell me: “gotcha! You’re so sexist! You did not trust my awesome female character, so burn in hell!”

I’m also aware that during that fist viewing others may have been less candid than me and were not fooled by RJ’s intentions and think all his attempts were lame. That’s fair enough. I can only say it worked for me.

 

If not outright agree, I at least understand what your perception is, or where it's coming from.

The only thing I take exception with is her right as leader. She absolutely had a right to keep Poe in the dark about her plans. That decision has merit strategically (though I question her plan as such, but that's somewhat a different topic), so on that part we agree. She did not, however, have a right, especially as a stranger who knows nothing first hand about Poe, to so bitingly insult and demean Poe, a respected leader, a potential link to the rest of the crew, someone who has not only been proven loyal, but heroic to the cause. It's simply not a good leadership strategy, especially not with people who are supposed to be moral or hold the moral high ground on the enemy. More than that though, not with a crew that is largely unfamiliar with her (how that's possible I still find baffling, but again, a separate issue). Keeping something from someone, and shoving it in their face instead of taking a professional route, the high road, is ludicrous. I can't see a way to describe that as anything but a mistake. Not just a minor one either, it handicaps her to the point of mutiny. Poe wasn't alone in his mutiny. As a leader, even if you're just average, you have to be able to read your audience, your crew. She failed miserably, but worse, she failed by making a rookie mistake, but worse again, by one that is immoral and counter to what the Rebellion has fought for.

I understand why RJ put that in there, as we discussed, to throw the audience off by having us suspect her of being evil or misguided leader. But I don't feel that it was warranted. I feel the lack of addressing it within the movie a failure on RJ's part. It absolutely should have been addressed. It had a consequence, the mutiny, but within the movie it never blows back on her, and it should have, by Leia or by others. Instead the mutiny is seen as being solely a mistake by Poe, and Holdo bears none of the blame. She could still have been heroic in that final attack, but the audience should have seen at some point Holdo realizing or others realizing that Holdo failed in her leadership. That her actions at the beginning were essential in the predicament they were in before their flight to Crait. Poe should not have been alone to shoulder the blame. In my view, Holdo was more to blame than Poe was. I'm mystified that no one caught on to that while putting the movie together.

I think this is where the criticism comes to feminists theories. Why did RJ not have Holdo be held responsible in any way, and instead make her off as heroic? It could be an oversight. Maybe initial drafts had something addressing it and in his mind he has more of the story than we do and doesn't realize it isn't in the movie. However, it's not in there, and he defends the movie to the point of saying he would change nothing. So based on that, you have to ask why he wouldn't have Holdo be criticized, chastised for her mistake? I'd do the same if she was male, and I or the media might come up to a similar reverse conclusion, they wanted this particular white male to come off as flawless. They did not want to taint the white male ect. Because she's female, similar conclusions are drawn. Whether or not that's fair, I think it's debatable.

There's a theory or idea that floats around that SJW type of writers deliberately write minorities in ways to avoid tainting them with flaws or serious set backs. I think that's where a lot of the root criticism and accusation on TLJ as being SJW comes from. I could accept Rey not getting Skywalker treatment because it wasn't necessary and they chose a different way instead of yet another limb being cut off. I rather like the idea that her trauma is more mental than physical, even if that's much harder to see on screen (that might play out better in the novelization, not sure how much it's addressed in there though). But in this case, Holdo does seem flawless. Without any blow back, it gives the impression that she was totally justified in doing what she did (as many defend). It gives the impression that demeaning people is okay, if you're Holdo. A white feminine female. The fact that she gets away with it, without a word of remonstration from Leia, or questions from any other of the crew that helped Poe in the mutiny, sends a questionable message. It doesn't have to, but a message one could get from it is this. If you're man, you need to shoulder the blame, and don't you dare blame a woman even if she may be, and probably is just as, culpable.

It's difficult to sparse out and reason because her not telling him and the way she doesn't tell him is twisted together. I think it confuses people, I know it did me. It took me some time to figure it out, why that scene and the conclusion of Holdo bothered me so. I'm not saying I lean strongly on the intended sexist far left feminist message, but it does lead to doubt at the failure of addressing it. It's a weakness in the movie at the very least. It hasn't been my #1 issue with it, which is probably why it's taken me so long to analyze it.

Edit: I would also add, that as a feminist, I can see this situation as being anti-feminist. It shows a female taken over by emotional distress (her best friend Leia in critical condition) making a leadership mistake. That plays to tropes and generalizations that women struggle against when applying to leadership positions. And then one has to wonder, is that why RJ left it out? It's a mess and I feel he should have avoided it. I just hate that there's something in the movie that gives credence to the presence of SJW ideas in SW.

 

@Sparafucile I think I fondamentaly agree with everything you said about RJ.
If I remember well, in the first post I wrote after seeing TLJ I said that too.
RJ is very creative. I am sure he is as I am sure TLJ is an ambitious movie.. perhaps too much: so much so, it’s not only a sequel but a reboot of TFA too, at least inconsciuly. It’s two movies in one.
And sure, if I take TLJ in vacuum, as a movie on its own, I give it a better rant.
I’Il never consider it a good movie, truth to be told, because all the plot issues I have (see what I said about all the resistance storyline).
The (if I am not mistaken) so called “pacing”, that is mediocre period to me.
But overall, the TLJ would simple be an action/fantasy movie I wouldn’t care
that much about, but that I may understand other people like.

But it’s not. It’s TFA direct sequel and the 8th entry in a saga.

And I just cannot understand what they were thinking about...
Why they did choose to have not plan.
To give freee rein to each director, etc.. etc.. etc...

That said... Anakin in I - like it or not - was not only introduced.
He was introduced as The Chosen One.
So GL had to let him do “special” things.
Even tho it’s not that he fights with a lightsaber vs Maul..

That’s the difference between him and Rey.
There was a reason as to why Anakin was special.

And Luke... he wasn’t introduced as someone special.
Gifted yes. Special among those giften in the Force, not.


That is why, many of us after TFA believed there was something
to explain Rey’s power.
And I never believed it to be blood.
Or blood only.


And I must say... the movies simply didn’t give any answer.
The novels did. Because they knew people were guessing about it.
Turns out, the explanation to me is worst that no explanation.

Take the criticism about her being able to fly the Millennium Falcon.

I didn’t get that criticism, I confess.

Because she’s a scavenger and a mechanic.
And I never met a mechanic that doesn’t know how to drive.
So to me, as it is for Finn in the movie, the question was
If she knows how to fly, why she never left Jukku?
Because she was waiting for her family.

That added something to the character.
To her arc.

As for her trying to do and finally being able to do a mind trick...
That was the weirdest thing to me.
But a far better explanation than the mental download could have been
that just because the Jedi are a legend, people in the Galaxy,
poor scavengers included, know about their “magical” tricks and abilities.
So she tried.

Add a sentence in the movie (or in the novel) and job done.

Would have been perfect? Not. But far better than the mental download.

Especially if the next movie you give a far deeper and satisfying explanation
of her abilities (of how much she’s gifted) than again the mental download.

@Kylocity well if you meant that we together with Poe were supposed to
suspect that Holdo was the bad guy, then I guess we agree more than I believed.
I think the movie makes it clear: Poe doesn’t trust her.
He thinks she hides something or at least that she she doesn’t know
what to do. “Tell us we have a plan”
But... there is a but, sorry, that is why I think she is incompetent.

Because, when Leia and Poe sit down and she explains the plan..
He’s like.. ok. Not problem at all.

So Holdo is incompetent. And not because of the strategy, but because
She doesn’t know how to gain the trust of the people she works with.

Problem is I don’t think that is what RJ wanted us to think about her.
He wanted us to think that Poe was wrong because he didn’t trust her,
and she was right in not telling the plan.
In fact is not that we see Leia saying to her WTF have you done?

She could have said that. In a private chat. And the other lesson
to learn could have been that you do not humiliate the people you work with in public.
Especially in front of their subordinates.
They could have use the scene between the two, while Poe is sleeping..
Instead of showing the two ladies declaring how much they like him..
We could have seen Leia telling Holdo that he was an idiot, but she did a bad job too.
Then Holdo dies an heroine. so that we can forgive her.

Sorry If I can’t explain myself bettter, I hope you get it.

Last... because of that... if there’s one thing I’d love to see in IX
the only retcon I really wish to see, it’s Poe saying
I learnt time ago how it is to tell the truth to the people I work with
That is how you gain their trust.

I’d love that. I’d so love to see that...

 

I think the lesson for Poe was to realise, after all the Holdo fiasco, that he had made a mistake not following Leia’s instructions when she told him to abort the dreadnaught operation, not only because life was lost pointlessly, the worst mistake a war leader can be responsible for, but because it tarnished his reputation and it prejudiced Holdo against him from the start. That is something a war leader has to consider too. Holdo did not actually fail in her war leadership, she did not place anyone at risk or tarnished her reputation by doing so, quite the opposite: She was simply being cautious and expected everyone below her command to follow orders. She just went about it in a way our hero, his friends within the story, and the audience felt was unfair to Poe, because we like him and are always on his side, in spite of him causing the whole bombing fleet to perish.

 

Holdo’s mistake or flaw, if you think about it, was not to connect with Poe at a human level, but that’s what was intended for this storyline to work. Yes, Holdo dies a heroine after being thought by everyone for most of the film she was a complete tool. Connix even thinks that she was deserting before she sacrificed herself! It turns out she wasn’t that bad. Just a bit snarky, untrustful of Poe after the bombing fiasco and worried about information being leaked to the enemy.

The only feminist reading I can see in Holdo’s being made somewhat blameless is that, often, women in leadership positions tend to play it very safe (I have seen this in my line of work often) and are frequently criticised for it. Maybe, in this particular scenario, RJ made this female leader being the one to teach a lesson about “safe” leadership to our very risk prone male hero.

Holdo actually did grow on me after several viewings as i coukd see her point of view more clearly.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 27, 2018 ---

I think I’ve given my take on some of these points in my posts to @Sparafucile above.

I do see what you mean. Holdo did not handle the situation in a way a character who we root for or like should have done for us to warm up to her, but that was not RJ purpose using her. Holdo in the end was killed off. She completed her role in the story. What we should take from her is that she wasn’t as bad as we thought she was.

I don’t know if I remember correctly but the conversation between Poe and Holdo was private, apart from her sarcastic: “so kind of you to make me aware...”, but in fairness Poe had just gone straight to her and Poe-explained the situation to her, his superior and the woman who Leia, a clever cookie, had left in charge... and he did this in front of others... (ugh I know I’m going to get a lot of stick for saying this, but sure, I might as well...)

 

@Kylocity ... the bombing fiasco...

If that super super Star destroyer wasn’t taken down, given what happens five minutes later...
the resistance would be dead.
No survivors at all.
No need of the chase.
Nothing.
They were done.
Period.
But... whatever.

And forgive me, but I still don’t the get all the supposed she was afraid the information could be
leaked.
The plan she kept secret was Crait.
And if she was afraid of a leaker, then she sent a potential leaker in the escape ships to Crait.
Ready to leak the info.

Beside that... I can only say, I understand your pov.
It’s not mine. But that’s fine.

 

I don’t think the film wanted us to believe that she was worried about someone leaking information. Both Poe and Holdo start off on the wrong foot (blame Poe or blame Holdo, depending on how you look at it) and the communication between both leaders collapses. After that first confrontation they decide they don’t like or trust each other. Poe devises a need-to-know plan and Holdo does the same with her plan (or maybe it’s Leia’s plan... I’m not actually quite sure). And in fairness, Holdo has more reason for keeping him in the dark, as she fears he’s capable of disregarding her orders and put the plan in jeopardy (as seen during the bombing fiasco). She also observes how increasingly frustrated and aggressive Poe gets at her presumed inaction. “Get this man out of my bridge”.

About the bombing fiasco, I disagree. After Poe distracts Hux and the FO and after he blows up a few dreadnaught cannons, he’s told to return to base, as the resistance has been completely evacuated from the base, and they are going to proceed to make the jump and escape. There was no need to blow up the whole dreadnaught... Of course, they would have been followed by the FO as they were being tracked, but neither Leia nor Poe nor anyone knew about this at that stage.

 

I agree that it’s good that movies and tv shows educate the viewers about social issues. It’s the one thing common in most sci-fi shows. It shows what humanity is doing wrong, and try’s to guide how we can make changes in how we perceive certain issues. It also helps us to learn to be more inclusive to cultures or people we don’t know or understand. That’s one of the reasons why I like sci-fi, it gives hope to me that one day humanity will get it right.

That being said, I’m not against them using Star Wars to showcase social issues. I guess I wish it was not so blatantly obvious. We all know about the issues that we are currently facing. I think if the writers would make it more subtle, it would help inspire the audience to be more welcoming to accepting that change. Don’t force their point on someone that isn’t willing to listen. Unfortunately, humanity has hit a wall in our evolution when it comes to social advancement. Just like in medieval times, religion is holding humanity back from advancement. We have made some improvements but people have a hard time with too much change at once.

You’re right about Poe giving Finn his name. It was a great moment. And I agree that women should be shown in positions of power. Maybe they tried to include too many issues in this one movie. Or maybe we’re over analyzing it.

 

At this point I think we've both said our piece. I don't agree with you, but I can understand where you're coming from. We disagree and that's okay, it's not like Holdo was my biggest issue with TLJ. I'm just happy things have calmed enough that we can talk about it rationally.

 

Absolutely. This is just my take on things. Not everyone receive films and stories in the same Way. Glad we talked.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 28, 2018 ---

Of course we are overanalysing, but that’s the fun part! Social issues were not the problem TLJ had IMO. For me having 3 storylines going and so many full character arcs made the whole film feel a bit bloated on that first viewing. It definitely needed that second viewing!

 

Thing is I don’t generally have a problem with so many stories arcs. I prefer long movies. Just like I prefer long songs. My two favorite bands have multiple songs that are over 20 minutes in length. I love all the lord of the rings and hobbit movies.

It is what it is, and it ain’t what it ain’t. Thanks for the replies and thoughtful conversation. I think we proved along with others in the last few pages that we can have Intelligent discourse while disagreeing without being belligerent. It’s been insightful to read yours and the many other people whom have been expressing their points of views over the last week or so. Thank you to all and I look forward to continuing the conversation.