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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    171 vote(s)
    55.2%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    136 vote(s)
    43.9%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    185 vote(s)
    59.7%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    162 vote(s)
    52.3%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    116 vote(s)
    37.4%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    109 vote(s)
    35.2%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    158 vote(s)
    51.0%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    199 vote(s)
    64.2%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    134 vote(s)
    43.2%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    207 vote(s)
    66.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    ANH was written as a standalone movie that could have sequels (hence George Lucas leaving Darth Vader alive at the end). The narrative really doesn't have mystery boxes, but just generalized exposition. The Clone Wars are referenced in ANH, but not in a way to trick the viewer into thinking something that maybe this or that when further explained. Rey's parentage is a literal mystery box that is a HUGE plot point in TFA, no matter which way you eventually feel (You have a Skywalker Lightsaber call to her). Whether she is a nobody, a Skywalker, a Solo, a Kenobi, etc, that is a key part of the narrative to TFA. Luke's parentage really isn't relevant until Lucas decided to make Vader his father in ESB, so the viewer isn't speculating that in 1977.

    That is why ANH works so well because you can view the movie and you don't need ANY sequels or prequels to understand or enjoy the narrative. TFA is the exact opposite where the exposition IS forcing the viewer to speculate because the story isn't complete.

    I have to say that these last few pages of discussion has really crystalized why I like the standalones more then the saga movies from Disney. I think Disney SW movies are well executed (good characters, good visuals, good action), but I don't know if they have the writers to really make a trilogy where the overall narrative/arc works in a cohesive/meaningful way. The Standalones work because they don't have to marry any movies with them. R1 is a true standalone, Solo works as a standalone with the possibility of sequels, so they both work well on their own. The Saga movies have to connect on a narrative level, and I think that's where Disney's Achilles heel is.
     
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  2. Buckeye94

    Buckeye94 Rebel General

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    I completely agree with you here, especially your last paragraph. I've found myself looking forward to the standalone movies more than the ST and I enjoyed them more. I'm rather "blah" on the ST at this point and I'm rather bummed that they are not doing anymore standalones for the foreseeable future.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    What JJ means but mystery boxes is withdrawing of information, creating questions to be answered as the story unfolds. What does the beautiful girl stores in the tubby robot? we learn that it is a message for Obi Wan Kenoby. Who is Obi Wan Kenoby? It's old Ben Kenoby. Why does the princess wants his help? Because he is Jedi Knight who fought with her father? What are the Jedi? What's the force? etc, etc, etc... The information is given by answering questions presented to the audience, creating suspense, instead of boring everyone with stodgy exposition like in the Prequels... The Clone Wars, like the Knights of Ren, were just context designed to give texture to the narrative, to make us feel that, even in this fantastical world, there is a history. The Clone Wars and the Knights of Ren were not mysteries.

    I agree that Rey's background was made mysterious, but the feeling I had during that first viewing was that this mystery somewhat converged with the main mystery in TFA: Where is Luke?
     
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  4. TrumanJ

    TrumanJ Rebel General

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    And that’s where we can agree to disagree. I think RJ’s writing for tlj was lousy. IMO it doesn’t flow with tfa or with the characters personalities from the ot. Objectively in my opinion, I can bring up many facts to prove why I believe his writing for tlj was lousy. He has written other stories that are good and enjoyable.

    Sorry for my choice of words in my posts from yesterday. I was in a rush due to the hours I’ve been working as of late. Been working 13 hour days and nonstop for weeks. I usually read over my posts and make adjustments, but wanted to get a proper nights sleep. Same goes for tonight.

    As for his time and effort, yes he spent time and he put effort into the story, but to me it wasn’t enough. The script wasn’t technically sound. There are many errors. But in the end, that post was to merely to explain my point of view about being able to criticize the producers, writers, directors. It’s good that you don’t think I was attacking him. I was just trying to give an example of how we should be able to criticize a producer.

    As for the KK fan reaction, you’re correct. It was JJ’s threatened by women comment I was thinking about. Sorry for my error. And thank you for pointing it out.
     
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  5. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    I don't know if I buy into the KoR being similar to the CW. When Obi-Wan mentions the CW in ANH, we see exposition from an old man. I think the logical assumption viewers make is that this war happened a long time ago, as in decades ago. The reality ends up being not quite as long ago as we had surmised, but still a fairly long time ago.

    With the KoR, we have a young Kylo, younger than 30 years old. So the KoR are relevant to the story, not just then as they were formed, but now that they should be experts. It's a logical sequence based on the information viewers are given. The fact that RJ is on the record in saying he wanted the KoR in TLJ but just couldn't fit them in adds to that supposition. I would be surprised if they didn't have a role in IX. I sincerely think that we will get books on them after IX telling us what they've been up to during the events of the ST leading up to IX. To me, that's a significant difference between the 2.
     
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  6. Tezzies

    Tezzies Clone

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    Just to add weight to RJs poor writing skills argument. His lastest film for LCD sound system ends with someone disapearing... that's the 3rd time he's used that trick to close a film.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    For me the KOR comment was part of Snoke’s adulation to Kylo. We are shown with it (not told) that Kylo is under the spell of Snoke’s flattery and that’s one of the reasons he was seduced to the dark side.

    I know JJ said there was a back story for the KOR, but I think the role of that comment in the writing of the film is saying something about the relationship between kylo and snoke.
     
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  8. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    I don't necessarily think RJ is a horrible writer. I do think he made errors, probably mostly due to ideas he had and didn't want to let go and tried too hard to fit them into his story. I think had RJ had the whole trilogy to write, we might have gotten something better. He would have been able to better lead us to the pay offs. He might have given us an academy had he not be forced to write Luke in exile. He was given a second act, and I think he was overly attached to some ideas he had for the trilogy as a whole, and that is what got him to make, in my view, some errors. Had it been another franchise or single movie, it would have gone mostly unnoticed. That it happened in a SW saga movie, TLJ will probably be what RJ is remembered for, for better or worse.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 22, 2018 ---
    Certainly possible, but of course it's also open to interpretation. I guess only JJ can truly say what his intent was by including them in TFA, but regardless of what his intent was, the great thing about art, we are free to interpret things differently.
     
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  9. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Thank you for the compliment.

    Honestly, I found TFA so barebones that I couldn't even really speculate for the next film. The excitement of speculation comes from the details you're provided, the revelations that occur, the interactions or plot devices thoroughly-established within screentime...and when you have a film so sparse of detail, there's nothing for my mind to work with. It's like if you were watching an episode of Game of Thrones (I have no particular love for that series, but it's a relevant example), where the events play out almost exactly like a previous episode you've already seen, with all the episode's runtime dedicated to recreating that entire episode with nothing furthered or revealed before the credits. That's how I was with TFA: I had nothing to be excited about. People were excited about Rey's origins, but Rey is so meager and blase, with microscopic motives that I don't care enough to know what happens to her next, much less whose womb she popped out of. People were speculating why Luke was gone, but the conflict and galaxy he's absent from isn't interesting enough to make me want to see him interact with it, much less find out why he's MIA.

    As for Snoke, he made no impression on me whatsoever when I saw him, but the one thing that peaked my curiosity was his appearance. The way he looked made me think he was some kind of alien, and the prospect of new alien races are one of my favorite things in Star Wars media. I didn't care about the character himself, but I was curious if he was part of some new species that we were going to see in further Star Wars media like comics and games (like how the PT introduced Iridonian Zabraks, Torgrutans, Besalisks, and other species that would provide new kinds of characters for spin-off media). And weirdly enough, Snoke's appearance actually changed somewhat between films. Call me crazy, but his face looks more creature-like in TFA than it did in TLJ, and in TLJ it wasn't even established if his appearance was because he was part of some species, or something.

    But that was all I was really interested in. I couldn't give less of a Gungan turd about the character himself. He's just as much empty set-dressing as Captain Phasma is. And the protagonists, for that matter.

    I absolutely agree with this. For as much as my views resonate with a lot of the anti-TLJ crowd, the one area where I part company and jump ship is this idea that TLJ ruined everything that J.J. had set up, like sacred convents had been broken. That isn't even close to being true. We wouldn't be in this situation had Abrams suppressed his urge to be Mystery Box Maniac yet again, and actually establish a core story with details and development for once. Instead of leaving everything from the setting to the conflict to the world-status open for sequels, those things could've been established in the first film, and the sequels could focus on new narrative questions and dilemmas...you know, kind of how stories are supposed to work by default? The reason someone like Rian Johnson was able to dive off the deep end and headfirst into Cringe Canyon with his absurd twists, botched characterizations, and self-contradictory plot is because Abrams had essentially left him with a blank canvas. You think we would've been subject to half of this dreck had the story of TFA been rigidified with some stable answers and proper information? Do you think the tonal and narrative disparity between TFA and TLJ would even exist? One of the reasons ESB works well as a follow-up to ANH is because ANH itself established a TON in its runtime. In just one film, we're given copious information on characters, conflict, setting, mythology, world rules, and other necessities, so that ESB isn't some kind of narrative leap into blind space: it has to adhere to EVERY copious detail that its predecessor established. So how surprised can you really be when it starts out with one director leaving the narrative canvas blank, and then his successor uses that opportunity to wipe his narrative fecal matter all over the canvas? Make no mistake; Rian's story decision are phlegm-inducing, without a doubt...but Abrams' laziness is what enabled that craptastic writing to spread unchallenged, by failing to ground the first film with a detailed and substantial basis from which the sequels couldn't derail from.

    In regards to your point about acting, visuals, etc., the only thing I can say is...so what? Who cares how good the performances and visuals are? That all means nothing if the story they're servicing has all the flavor and intricacy of a block of tofu. Abrams' Trek films are filled with top-class acting talent like Karl Urban, Idris Elba, Benedict Cumberbatch, all turning in spectacular acting and surrounded by some truly impressive CGI. But that isn't worth a hippo's butt-crack when Abrams and his trained monkey Alex Kurtzman turn in three horrendous story concepts for each of those films. You can poke fun at some the hammier acting and wooden dialogue in shows like DS9 and Voyager, but beneath those flaws is a story that endures in spite of shoddy execution and technical incompetence. It's the same deal with the Prequel Trilogy and the ST. The latter has lavish production value, practical effects, and actors pushing themselves to the limit...all for a script that's agonzingly-derivative of the OT, adds nothing of substance or value to the Star Wars universe, completely lacking in world-building, and exists solely to execute a suffocating play-it-safe rehash of the OT to gurantee Disney money from casual audiences. The stories in these films are so limited in scope and originality that even spin-off material set in the same era is suffering from it. The PT, on the other hand, had all of those things in spite of objective filmmaking blunders. Yeah, the effects haven't aged well, and yeah, the performances are mostly dry Shakesperean theatrics pumped with exposition and melodrama....but they're servicing a story, conflict, and new elements just like my Star Trek examples.

    I'd rather have a sloppily-told but good story that's meant to last for years to come, than a well-told but vapid and unoriginal story that's made to garner five minutes of hype and speculation before hitting the bargain bin where it belongs. That is why they feel like standalone movies.

    If Disney/LFL wants to get some of my good will back, they can start by putting out some more varied spin-off material. It's been 6 years since the Disney acquisition, 4 since the canon relaunch....and the novels and comics are just devoured by OT-era tripe. Everywhere you look, it's Empire vs Alliance, TIES & X-wings, Rebels & Stormtroopers...and I can't STAND it. They're doing almost NOTHING else. Remember back in the EU days, when you had a wealth of massive, long-running stories that spanned multiple eras?

    That's completely gone. If that one aspect of the current franchise landscape was difference, I'd just turn my nose to the movies and ignore them. They'd no longer be my problem. But this obsession with replicating the OT hype and nostalgia isn't just contained to the ST movies, it's EVERYWHERE in Star Wars right now.

    And I absolutely hate it. It literally sickens me that a franchise I got into for its sheer, boundless creativity is being so woefully uncreative.

    It's funny, because over Christmas Holiday, my Dad and I watched the PT for the first time in years. I've mentioned before on this thread that my dad is a massive Star Wars fan (even got a doctorate in Theology to relate his passion for Star Wars to academic studies on spirituality and myth culture), and after we were finished watching, I asked him which movie he enjoyed the most, and his answer was "Attack of the Clones."

    I pressed him further as to why, and he said it was because he loved seeing the origins of the Clone Wars explained so meticulously, he liked watching Anakin struggle with his emotions and embark on a quest to find his mother, and he liked watching Obi-Wan trace a conspiracy to its roots. It was something the previous Star Wars movies had never done before. I then asked him if he thought it was a good film. He said: "Hell no, none of them are good movies. I wouldn't want to see characters act or talk like this in other movies that I watch. But they're good stories; and even better Star Wars stories."

    That last phrase really encapsulates why I'm able to enjoy the PT, where the ST doesn't even register a pulse.

    There’s a fine line between fans entertaining the spectacle off-screen by letting their imagination run wild, and fans literally filling in the half of the film left gaping open by the writers. Writing in a glut of extra info for characters is one thing, that’s extremely common and what 99% of fanfiction tends to be…and that’s fine, because the world the characters inhabit in the official canon is so meticulously explained and enforced with core rules that the characters are one of the only narrative components open to interpretation. One of the major reasons Harry Potter is the #1 fanfiction topic in existence is because the films (and novels) are sprawling with exhaustive world-building and intricate detailing of plot elements, rules of magic, prophecies, history and lore…to the point where the characters are the only things left to augment, re-write, or fill in for. Speculating on characters is fine…it’s when you have to speculate on the setting, world, and rules that things become a problem.

    To put this in perspective, a film that is absolutely crippled by this issue is Prometheus. The amount of theories, head-canon, and fanfiction spun around that film in light of how under-explained and poorly-communicated the film’s setting and world was ended up destroying that film. Who are the Engineers? Where did they get the black substance? Why do they have a mural of the Xenomorph in their ship? Why did they create humans only to try and destroy them? What were the cannisters in the massive ship hall? What are their goals, why are they traveling the galaxy on their massive voyage? Why does the Alien in the film end up breeding with the Engineer in a way that contradicts with the way the Xenomorph breeds and mutates in the original Alien films? What’s happening in 50% of this movie? This isn’t related to characters or the core plot at all. This is the setting, continuity and the world of Alien taking an extra-terrestrial phallus on behalf of abhorrent world-building and the absolute non-existent information given to the audience. And what was the remedy the Prometheus Defense Force used to shield the film from criticism? Head-canon, speculation, and fanfiction.

    And this same problem is something that DEVOURS the ST movies. They suffer from the ultimate form of underdeveloped storytelling where it’s not just the characters that are being developed and extended by the fans on behalf of the writers, but the world and conflict as well. Everything in the ST is so under-explained and sparse in detail, that fans end up writing 99% of the setting and world FOR J.J. Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan, and the rest of the overpaid writing staff over at Lucasfilm. Think about how vague and barebones the setting and world of the ST is in terms of information known by us, the viewers: How is there a Resistance and a Republic simultaneously? Why aren’t they on the same side, and why are they a separate entity at all? Is the First Order a secret to the galaxy or have people known about them for years? Why are the Resistance the only people in the galaxy reacting to them, or fighting them? How long has this conflict between the First Order and the Resistance even going on, and what impact does it have on the rest of the galaxy? If the First Order’s entire regiment of soldiers are comprised of child soldiers kidnapped or bred in mass, how are people in the galaxy not aware of them, and how are they reacting to them if they ARE aware? Wouldn’t actions like these be EXTREMELY SUSPICIOUS and widely-controversial, especially when it’s at the hands of the remaining members of a notorious fascist group of villains who mercilessly ruled the galaxy a few decades ago? How big is this war between the Resistance and the First Order, and how much of the galaxy is it effecting? Why is the First Order CALLED the First Order, and what makes them different from the Empire, or better? This is not information on characters, or the motives of said characters. This is the world that they inhabit. We have no idea what the situation or conflict surrounding these characters are, which is a far cry from the exhaustive amount of exposition and establishing info provided in the OT and the PT (Passing mentions on the war around them by the likes of Luke and Ben in ANH, the Imperial Council, Ben reminiscing about the era before ANH, ESB’s numerous explanations about how the Force works by way of Yoda, etc.). And before scrambles to point to the Aftermath books or some mediocre Marvel comics to explain the conflict and setting hosting the drama of the core films, just sit back and remember how many books or encyclopedias you needed to rationalize the world and setting in the OT and PT while watching the film. At that point, the books and comics serve the exact same function as fanfiction: to make up for the writer’s failings to establish the world and conflict in which the story is seated. When conflict-based, world-related questions like this are left up to fans to write fanfiction for—information on which the stakes and drama of the scenarios depend on—it’s time to stop tap-dancing around the narrative gaps and hold the writers accountable. It’s the same problem as Prometheus, but worse. The Alien film franchise consists of largely stand-alone films, separated by large swaths of time, often consisting of a completely different cast of characters for each film (except Ripley), with very little in the way of film-to-film plotline or scenario continuity. These ST films are set days between each other and are focused on the same conflict and characters. Where these problems cripple Prometheus, they ANNIHLATE the ST movies on virtue of TLJ being a direct, continuing extension of events.

    And we’re not walking into the Star Wars universe with naïve, unconditioned eyes like we did upon watching ANH back in 1977: this is the seventh film, set THIRTY YEARS after the last chronological entry. You cannot expect the audience to fill in 30 years of blank space with head-canon, and then follow THAT up with a complete lack of information on the current film. Could you imagine if there was an 8th, 9th, and 10th Harry Potter film saga that leapt 30 years ahead with some all-out war going on, but didn’t explain ANY of the advances or changes in the world? What schools are around, who the Headmaster is, what the state of the Wizarding community is, nothing…just some vague information like “From the ashes of the Death Eaters, the Demise Drinkers reign supreme. Hogwarts now only has two houses, magic only works for half of the wizarding community, and a new war is being fought over the newly-rebuilt Elder Wand…a war fought in the open streets with Muggles watching, who carry about their day without questioning any of it. Also, the Malfoy family runs the Ministry.” Imagine, if none of that was explained. Sure, lots of character development happens, and the drama between them continues, but nothing about the world is explained even remotely. And the solution to confused fans would be either to resort to fanfiction, or a possible spin-off novel to explain how the Harry Potter world got to this stage. Know what the reaction would be? There would be CARNAGE in the Potter fanbase. A series renowned for its detailed world and exhaustive explanations for factions and conflict now reduced to a casualized, barebones mess where NOTHING makes sense. I’m pretty damn skippy there wouldn’t be a defense anywhere in the Potter fanbase for something like that.

    Having character-related questions like “Where is Luke?” and “What’s the story behind Kylo Ren?” is one thing. Having the world and the setting be one big question that’s never answered, particularly in a film set 30 years after the previous sixth film, is another thing an entirely. It’s a terrible precedent for a franchise renowned for its lore and worldbuilding, like Star Wars.


    The bulk of my disappointment comes from the lack of variety in their products (the oversaturation of the OT era springs to mind, especially in the realm of comics & novels), the "play-it-safe" approach to the storytelling in both films and supplementary media, and the complete lack of risk or originality.

    I didn’t like everything Lucasfilm put out in the pre-Disney era. But I can at least give them a pass because more often than not, they were trying something bold, risky, and ambitious in scope and creativity in their stories. The comics, novels, and games were flooded with creativity and variety that spanned across all eras. By 1997, the EU was flourishing with games, stories, and adventures spanning many genres and eras. It was already a world that dwarfed the scope of the films.

    Disney has owned Star Wars for the same amount of time, six years…soon to be seven. And the bulk of their products have been objectively less creative, less ambitious, and less sprawling across eras and variety. Their movies are where they’re the least creative.

    Whether or not the products please you or me, that is undeniable as a fact. And I will continue to be vocal until it changes.

    “The same approach to storytelling GL displayed in ANH?” You mean like stuffing hurdles of exposition around Tarkin’s conference table, Luke’s dinner with his aunt and uncle, and Ben’s homestead to inform the audience on the world, politics, mythology and setting?

    Because let me tell you, that’s something certainly lacking in TFA’s shallow, barebones script. Lucas put an exhaustive amount of time to immerse the audience in the conflict, setting, circumstance and era ANH was set in. He elaborated on aspects of the warring factions, the era that preceded the one we were currently watching, established rules about the Force, all on the first go. He slowed down the film at many points, usually to educate the audience on the intricacies of the Star Wars universe, and the conflict rattling within it. But J.J. Abrams? His approach to storytelling is to sprint through the plot, dragging the audience by its earlobe, desperate to avoid world-building or exposition of any substantial sort as to not bore the audience between loud, shallow action scenes and hulking set-pieces. Between the action in Lucas’ films, there was a world being woven, an era being established…a tradition of world-building his successors carried throughout the OT, that he himself continued in the PT.

    In Abrams’ films, it’s not the characters or their motives that are the only mystery. EVERYTHING is a mystery, from the conflict, to the setting, to the world and all of its changed components over the last 30 years in-universe, either left to be elaborated far too late in some future film or a novel/encyclopedia to catch the fall for him, and his creative failings. I can be left to wonder about characters like Kylo and Rey the same way I was left to wonder about Ben and Vader. That’s fine.

    But don’t bother writing the story if the backdrop and conflict behind the characters is a mystery, too. Because my investment will be just as invisible as that mystery.


    That talk does sound original and candidly introspective.

    Now, imagine if only his films were like that.

    Don't worry, you're among kinsman. We're a cluster of nerds talking about our sprawling space opera through an internet forum, some of us penning American documents to express our distaste for its current direction.

    It's all useless and time-wasting babble. But it's a hobby I enjoy, so who cares.
     
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  10. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Jane Austin always made her heroines misread their love interests’ actions in order to create dramatic suspense. It happened in all her novels. She must be a terrible writer...
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 22, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 22, 2018 ---
    Absolutely. My problem is when people say the KOR is a mystery that needs to be addressed. It will only need to be addressed if it adds something to the story of Rey and Kylo in episode 9. Fans do not decide what’s a mystery in this case. That’s the writer’s job.
     
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  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    The closest comparison I could find to the KoR are the bounty hunters in ESB. In this example Kylo would be a hybrid of Bobba and Vader, which complicates the comparison.

    We didn't have to visit Tatooine and Jabba's palace, but it worked. It gave us a glimpse into a part of SW that we otherwise would be oblivious to. Jabba wasn't essential to the main plot other than creating a foil for the protagonists and concluding a mystery box from the previous movie. Han's fate. The KoR however are already part of the plot, Kylo's downfall, in some manner.

    I agree "need" is too strong a word, but the impression given is that they have a role to play. They were part of Luke's school's downfall. They betrayed him by leaving with Kylo. So there's a score to settle and in some sense they hold a similar significance to the bounty hunters, namely Fett, in ESB to RotJ. To me, the writer has already set a potential stage. This not being history, he could obviously just ignore it and head off in a different direction. However, I think the longer the story goes on, the more likely the KoR will need to be addressed. I see no problem in skipping them in TLJ, but unless the intent is for the saga to go on past IX, I would think, if not needed, it as at least preferable to give some more context and an outcome to their existence.

    The way I see it, not addressing them in this series would be a waste. Why that exposition then? We did not need to know Kylo had compatriots. They could have shown Kylo alone in the rain instead of him with his knights. Their inclusion suggests importance or at least relevance. At the very least there should be a mention of them and their fate.

    I think the death of Snoke all but guarantees their inclusion in IX. The FO is in need of imposing villains.
     
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  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    We absolutely agree on the fact that ANH's wise dramatic exposition and world building is lacking in TFA. Everything GL introduced was completely new. Nothing will ever compare with that storytelling magic. You don't have to convince me of that. However, I think our positions start to differ in our judgement of TFA. TFA hardly spent any time on world building. (When I said that TFA had similar unveiling of information as ANH I was thinking about character and story, not context.) This lack of investment in context seemed to be an obvious and intentional decision (that I know you dislike). JJ and Co opted for mirroring the conflict in ANH by using history's cyclical nature as a story telling tool: the OT conflict is repeating itself in TFA. Maz explains this cycle to Rey and the audience in the castle. Lor Sen Tekka also sets the record straight about the FO and its dark side (empire) origin from the word go. JJ, Kasdan, perhaps KK, made the decision to concentrate their efforts in creating relatable characters, making them compelling at an emotional level, to appeal a new generation of viewers while also regaling the older fans with the nostalgic emotional beats of the 1977 film. They left the nitty gritty of the political context unexplained, merely alluding to a world similar to that of ANH. I think this decision worked. Even though I personally wouldn't have minded the film being a bit longer to allow for some Resistance vs FO exposition, I thought the film, as the first instalment of a trilogy, worked pretty well without it.
     
    #5372 Kylocity, Nov 22, 2018
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  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    For anyone who says that this thread is too negative, these posts are the reasons I keep coming back because we are going beyond TLJ, and deeper into the franchise. I guess what I'm saying is I don't come here to rag on Rian Johnson or Kathleen Kennedy endlessly (but I understand fans that are frustrated by them), I come here because there are certain posters who really challenge my views of the SW movies and gives me a different perspective.


    I agree with you that story is the most important thing of any movie, but I put the characters importancy at 1A. That's is really the catch 22 for me with the PT and ST, as each Trilogy provides something really good and something really bad.

    The PT provides a detailed story that jives with the OT, and fleshes out the world we saw in 4,5,6. It gives you a context of the politics, the republic, the Jedi Order, the rise of Palpatine, so when you are watching the more intimiate story of Han, Luke and Leia, it FEELS like a well rounded story. So I can enjoy the PT in a macro sense as anything that has to deal with world building gives more layers to the OT story (When Obiwan is looking out on the clones on Kamino, you are literally watching the beginning of the Empire, those sort of scenes are gold for me in the PT). Where the PT falls short for me is the characters, the CGI, or simply the micro story. I think Hayden was severely miscast as Anakin, as he just doesn't work for me and that is a big problem in trying to have his story resonate with me. I hesitate to say it was Lucas direction (many would say it was Lucas fault) but Ewan McGregor shines in those same movies. The whole Anakin story just doesn't work for me, so I have to watch the PT in a macro sense. That works on a storytelling level, but there is no emotional impact when I watch those films the same way I feel when I watch the OT.

    The ST is the opposite where the characters really resonate with me. I really like Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver as I think they carry this Trilogy well, and I think Poe, Finn, and BB8 are likeable characters too. Heck, I even think Rose gets alot of crap from the fanbase as she isn't that bad! But where the ST falls short for me is the story as it's not original, not interesting, and I keep saying to myself, "What is the point and why was this Trilogy made other then $$$$?" So in an odd way, the ST movies do resonate with me on an emotional level that the PT don't (Luke/Leia reunion in TLJ), even Han and Rey had some good scenes in TFA. But the movies go nowhere in a big story sense because there is nothing really there that makes the PT/OT better. In a strange way, the ST makes the OT worse, especially ROTJ.

    It's really an interesting cycle that SW has gone through for the past 20 years in that you can kind of see that collaboration is the key, and one person should not get too much power. The OT was all about collaboration as each person contributed something to Lucas vision to make the movies better. The PT was all about too much Lucas and you could see his flaws in the movies. The ST is all about missing Lucas big ideas, his storytelling, and his overall sense for a purpose to these movies, as they have become popcorn blockbusters.

    OK, now I'm done my therapy session, see you next week Doc! LOL!
     
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  14. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    See, this is how I felt about TLJ.

    Aside from the few key points in TLJ that left me with a grimace, when it was over I wasn't left with a speculative mind about what was next, and if that had been the end of the saga, I wouldn't have blinked.

    With me, TFA left me with a world of wonder, like Rey's parentage, where had Luke been for the last 30 years, HOW did all of the wreckage end up on Jakku, etc, etc...but like you, I never gave one ioda about Snoke...not one, kind of how I felt about the emperor in the OT, until it was explained in the PT and then it made sense, but at the moment, nada.

    After TLJ, the only TWO things that I still struggle with are about Rey's lineage, because in my mind her seeming connection to the Skywalkers is too "convenient" (for lack of a better word), AND the supposition that Luke died, but the rest of it I really am almost not concerned with...not even Kylo Ren/Ben, strangely.

    As I saw it (which I've said dozens of times), TLJ was a war movie with small wads of weak character development dropped in here and there whereas with the PT and the OT, those movies were ABOUT those characters, and on that subject, I feel like TFA was markedly better than TLJ as it was ABOUT our characters, whereas TLJ somewhat fell flat in that department.

    In the end (regarding TLJ) I felt like I got a movie that was just a bunch of filler material that didn't much progress from TFA but with only a couple small increments, and like I said, the only things that I wonder about are Reys parents, and whether Luke has actually died, and I hope there's some closure to those questions in 2019, especially with the working title "trIXie" that will reveal the tricks that we've been fooled by...but either way, just some closure that isn't weak or half attempted by the time the credits roll.
     
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  15. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I agree with you completely. I have really nothing left to root for in this trilogy. Luke, Han and soon to be Leia are dead. Artoo has taken a back seat to BB-8. Rey's origin and why Luke was missing were the only things really interesting to learn about and RJ abruptly made those two story threads uninteresting. Does anyone really care about the war or the greater galactic conflict? I cared about the Rebellion beating the Empire. I don't care about the Resistance or the FO because they are more of the same. The story is repeating itself and the only new developments like Rey's mysterious origin are nothing now.
     
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  16. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I think this is where Disney misses Lucas big story/arc ideas, as it seems like the ST is so focused on the small stuff. The 1-6 story (when you take a step back) is about the Redemption of Darth Vader. Then you have all of these little stories spread throughout the 6 movies that really fill everything out. But all of those stories are piece of the pie that eventually led to Luke redeeming his father in ROTJ, and that's what makes it such a different type storytelling then your average blockbuster.

    I have always said that the one way JJ can salvage the ST and the 1-9 story is craft something that deals with Rey/Kylo Ren and their effect on truly balancing the Force. Maybe they both sacrifice themselves together at the end of Episode 9 to truly balance the Force? Episode 9 has to be something bigger then just Resistance vs First Order, or Rey vs Kylo Ren Lightsaber Fight or even bringing Luke back. I think that Disney is so worried about TLJ backlash, that they may focus on the wrong things to appease the fans in the shorterm. If JJ could make us look at the 9 movies when it is all said and done and they were essentially about the Force and finally bringing balance to them. Anakin was the first step to balancing the Force, but he detoured to the Darkside, and Luke had to redeem him, which led to the next generation (Rey and Kylo Ren) to truly balance the Force and end this destructive conflict. That is what this Trilogy should have been as the PT was about the Darkside, The OT was about the Lightside, and the ST would be about balance.

    But I just don't know if JJ (or Disney writers) have the writing chops to pull it off because it's very hard to write something that has an arc to it. I see it in TV shows, where some shows are good and enteraining, but the writers just can't craft that story with an ultimate arc. That is how the ST feels right now, in that it is a bunch of small stories mixed together, rather then one ultimate story arc told through various side stories.
     
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  17. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I see what you're saying and agree. I'm not a Plagueis guy or conspiracy nut, but I almost feel like something big and surprising needs to be revealed to tie everything together. I'm no writer, but if I had to tie it together somehow, I would reveal that it was Plagueis and Palpatine that created the Skywalker bloodline. That could help explain why Luke almost killed Ben and why Anakin turned so easily. They were all essentially children of the dark side. Leia never had the temptation because she didn't use the force and Luke struggled all his life with it. Ben Solo would then see that his destiny is to make the ultimate sacrifice so that the Skywalker bloodline can no longer be a threat to the galaxy.
     
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  18. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I don’t think Disney are worried. The saga films are doing very well, objectively. The majority of fans, hardcore and casual, feel positively about these films and debate over TLJ is only giving the publicity and anticipation necessary for the next film. I predict huge box office numbers for episode IX. JJ cinema style sells outside the franchise too, let’s not forget that.
     
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  19. Aloy of the Nora

    Aloy of the Nora Rebelscum

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    Both of these things are already explained in their respective movies.
     
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  20. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    It would provide further context. Make both situations feel more acceptable. In my opinion, Anakins turn was handled terribly as was the decision to make Luke almost kill Ben in his sleep.
     
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