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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

?

Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    171 vote(s)
    55.5%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    135 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    183 vote(s)
    59.4%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    161 vote(s)
    52.3%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    115 vote(s)
    37.3%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    108 vote(s)
    35.1%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    157 vote(s)
    51.0%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    198 vote(s)
    64.3%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    133 vote(s)
    43.2%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    206 vote(s)
    66.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Isn’t this a thread for those who hated the movie? So you’re telling him to take a hike in a thread for fans who hate the movie, yet you’re in this thread even though you like it? My head is spinning.....
     
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  2. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    OH my bad, forgive me, I was referring to that Joe Rogan show and the comments. My head was spinning after watching that clip at 55 minutes, and I forgot I was in the hate thread. MY BAD I'LL BE MOVING ALONG NOW...
     
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  3. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    To start, you make a few assumptions. First, that I don't think Disney can make good SW. Second, that I hate everything they've done, that it's all trash. Third, that I agree with all their points in the youtube video. Fourth, that you speak for people beyond yourself.

    You see, I can watch something, disagree with all or in parts, but still appreciate someone giving me their opinion or perspective, even if I disagree with them.

    You'll see that I don't claim that everyone thinks this way, only that this is what I seem to see from my own personal experience, from my interactions. I go out of my way to say this is anecdotal in the post. To clarify further, my interactions are not all exactly like their discussion either, there are variations, as in some could have more issue with another aspect of TLJ, like Luke's depiction for one example.

    I still have hope for some "good" SW in the future. I even hold a tiny amount of hope for the closing of this saga. Even if I didn't, I don't think it's up to you to say I should leave. I love the OT and can appreciate aspects of the PT. I like some of the new stuff they've come out with too. Even if I got to a point where I disliked everything they made that was new, but still enjoyed the OT, I think I would still be welcome to discuss things on here. Why? Because there's a thing called hope. I can always hope to get something I love again. There's another thing called tolerance. Without getting overly preachy, tolerance is this thing where someone says something you disagree with and you put up with because people have the freedom to that opinion, even if it's not shared.

    I don't mind you disagreeing with me, however, I do mind attempts at gatekeeping.

    Lastly, if you get it, maybe that particular post wasn't for you. Maybe you could have taken it as just one random guy's opinion and leave it at that.
     
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  4. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Jedi General

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    OK, random guy I'll leave it at that.
     
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  5. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Isn't this kind of what @Darth_Nobunaga and I have said. There seems to be this need by lovers of TLJ and nu-cannon to attack those who dislike them. I find some of the books in the nu-cannon to be good, others, not so much. I like the Darth Vader comics and I'm getting ready to check out the Dr. Aphra series, but other stuff, like TLJ and the "Aftermath" trilogy are less than I had hoped they'd be.

    It seems like @Rogues1138 is creating a "straw-man" argument here. And this seems to be what LFL and the supporters of TLJ have been doing. Why? Don't we all want better Star Wars books and films?
     
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  6. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I meant to respond to this the other day, but for some reason I didn't. They hit the nail on the head when they compare Alien to The Last Jedi. In TLJ (and all of the recent Star Wars films to be honest) they hit you over the head with the idea of "these are strong women." They go out of their way to tell us they are strong, but don't really do a good job of showing us they are strong. They certainly don't spend ANY time developing them. Rey? Sooo many chances to make her awesome. Instead she's bland, boring. A former student of mine, who is Latina, said of Rey, "I can't relate to her. She's perfect. I'm not."

    I love Rogue One, but Jyn was under developed. One dimensional, although there is SOME growth in her character, more than I can say for the characters in TLJ. And let's not get started on Holdo. One of the worst characters ever to appear in a Star Wars film. No growth, no nothing. Just ridiculous purple hair, ridiculous costuming and horrible lines. Thankfully Admiral Holdo is gone and won't be in TFA.
     
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  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel General

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    I don't agree with everything they say. For example, Leia pulls it off for me. However I would say she pulls it off based off of her merit in the OT and the natural progression we'd expect after 30 some years. So neither JJ or RJ earn that, however I guess we can at least commend them for not going a different direction with her to subvert our expectations. The only glitch for Leia in TLJ was her flying through space (and that whole sequence, not just the moment). Some of that I admit was on me for not knowing if and how long people can survive in vacuum and coldness of space. Some was bad execution in the visuals. Some was a lack of foreshadowing on the part of RJ to prepare the audience for that sequence of events, because I doubt many people knew off hand how long the human body would survive in the vacuum of space. However, if that was the only issue with TLJ, I don't think there'd be a hate thread, we'd be over that by now.

    My reasoning for posting that video was not because I think they're right. It was because we're all pretty hard core fans, who know a lot more than just the movie material. So we make assumptions on the general audience about how they think, what they liked and disliked ect. I'm not saying these guys speak for all casual fans, but at least it gives us insight into some of their thinking. It's hard to get a read on what the casual fan thinks, because they're not likely to comment about it very often. I thought that video gave us a rare glimpse into what some thought about it. I do think Rogan somewhat doesn't get SW, he comes from a very practical background, MMA fighter and all, when he sees people going flying or flipped around in a movie, it insults his experience in that field, the same way a physicist or astronomer can get insulted by inaccuracies in their own fields. It's harder for him to suspend his disbelief. So maybe SW just isn't his shtick. However, that doesn't necessarily invalidate all of his observations either.

    I can listen to what he says, ignore aspects that don't bother me as being his issue, maybe his lack of appreciation for the genre, and other stuff that bothered him can still have merit. At the very least, I can see that maybe some things that don't bother me can bother other casual viewers. That in itself is interesting, because SW thrives on the strength of its hardcore base, but it still needs the casual viewer to boost its numbers. If a portion of the hard care fans are disenchanted, and it's not striking a chord with casual viewers anymore either, it doesn't bode well for SW moving forward. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but it is something that I'm fascinated about. I guess to me, now that I'm no longer invested in the story the ST has to tell, I'm now more interested in the story the ST is saying about the fandom, both hard core and casual. I don't really have stakes, I'm mostly curious to see how it goes. I've said it a number of times before, it's like rubber necking a car crash.
     
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  8. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    I agree with you - almost 100%.

    i might be in a different lane to you bro.. but i'm also guilty of rubber necking a car crash. The difference to me, is that i've been driving past the same crash since 1999.

    what's annoying me about all of this is perspective.. a lack of a sensible overview to the movies and franchise.

    to give an example, i need a fan that's been as obsessive as i have since the 80's and was active on some form of SW forum/message board while the PT was being released (yes there were some in the early 2000's).. and did NOT like The Last Jedi.
    One of the biggest grievances about TLJ seems to be what became of Luke, and especially.. that he (apparently) nearly killed his nephew in cold blood.
    Does anyone here truly remember what fans first reactions were when they saw Anakin force choking his pregnant wife?
    Does anyone here truly remember what fans first reactions were when they saw Anakin ignite his saber in front of the younglings?

    I do remember - fans were utterly disgusted. had social media in 2005 been the same as it is today, i firmly believe that the s**tstorm we would have experienced during and after the PT would have led GL to bin Star Wars forever. there would have been no Disney buyout and no more Star Wars coming from LF.

    from where i'm sitting.. a large portion of the fan base has hated the last 5 saga movies. that's 5 out of 8 movies. It only seems worse now because of social media.

    nothing can ever match the original trilogy. it was special beyond words, and it's impact on cinema was so huge that it cannot be measured.

    I'm not saying that we shouldn't ask LF to give us something better (if one feels they need to), but i am saying that going to defcon 1.. slating the makers of SW on a daily basis and calling for theater boycotts - could result in Disney or LF turning around one day and saying that it's no longer worth making new Star Wars.

    let me ask you all this..
    would you rather Disney/LF stop making new Star Wars movies than continue to make movies that aren't in the direction that you think they should be going?
     
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  9. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I loved TFA. Now, after TLJ and before seeing ep. IX - meaning that I can change my mind after that movie - I'd say, maybe I'd love them to make SW movies that are not tied with the main saga. I am waiting for IX to have my finale word. And of course I wish JJ may change my mind. Like I said, I loved ep. VII so I give him the benefit of the doubt and wish him good luck. 100%.

    That said... I was just thinking - yesterday - that I am probably in a weird position.

    I haven't experienced the OT first hand. I was not even born when ANH came out, and too little when RoTJ came out (jut 3 years old). So I missed that wave. Totally.

    The first time I watched ANH I was 17. And I remeber I enjoyed it, but it wasn't a mind blowing. I liked the story. It looked like a nice fairytale, set in space. And I must add, that probably I liked it, just
    becuase even tho there were "fantasy" elements in that story (the force) still it wasn't too much a "fantasy" story.
    To make a comparison, I understand why people consider TLOTR (or Harry Potter) a masterpiece,
    but I don't love it. It's too much a "fantasy" tale for me, while I love the ASOIF serie, just because
    there is a nice balance - imo - between fantasy aspects and realistic aspects of a medieval
    finctional world. ANH looked like that to me.
    But I didn't love that movie - taken into a vacum - I liked it. In addition, by the 1997, we were
    used to special effects. So sure, I was able to put it into prospectinve and understand why peopleù
    were so impressed in 1977 but I didn't feel the same.

    Then I saw the other 2 movies, and that it was really got me. The story.
    So when the TPM came out I was totally on board.
    I saw the movie 3 times in theaters. (TPM was also the first movie I went to see alone, driving my car because here we can get the drive licence only at 18 years... fantastic memory). However...
    Still I knew that something wasn't 100% working with that one. It's got worst with AOTC , it's got better with ROTS.

    But overall the PT has something that doesn't work 100% fine with me.
    So I should say, that I am a OT fan more than a PT fan.
    However - and that is what I was thinking about yesterday - maybe, it's the PT that totally and
    definitelly won me.

    Because no matter the flaws, the story is terrific and it's even more terrific if we put together the PT and the OT.
    So not only the PT doesn't undermines the OT, not at all. The truth is that to me - and that is what I
    realized only yestarday - to me the PT gives more weight to the OT.
    I enjoy the OT even more so because of the PT.
    I enjoy more the throne room scene of ROTJ. Just to mention one thing (or each and every one word Obi Wan says to Luke in ANH) because of the PT.
    That's great. That's amazing. That's totally mind blowing for me.

    So I don't really know what kind of fan I am. If I am a fan of the OT per se. I know I love it. I really do and I don't think the PT needed to be done, to make of the OT a masterpiece in its own right.

    But the PT probably effected me more - and in a good way - than I ever realized until yesterday.
    For the very same reasons, I just cannot watch anymore that scene in throne room of ROTJ without a bad tast in mouth after TLJ.
    Luke almost killing his nephew in cold blood it's something I just cannot digest.
    The difference with Anakin/Vader to me, is that GL wasn't shy in wanting to underline Anakin(Vader's responsabilities.
    His own choices.
    Because ultimatelly that's the moral of that story.
    Of George's story: you are always given of the chance to choose right or wrong. No matter how much people try to deceive you or fail you.
    TLJ needed to have Luke out of character (because no.I don't buy it: you don't change that much
    in a second, time and experience may surely change you, but not a single moment of weakness out of nowhere)
    to make us sympatize with the villain. To try to have us doing so (with me it failed nevertheless, because I still have to understand why Ben's choice was to joyn a space nazi organization. I may understand revenge vs Luke, I still don't understant that).
    However, the goal was that: to undermine Ben/Kylo' s own responsabilites. And that is something that I do not accept, on a moral stand point. Just because I love George's take on that. I agree with that. And I will never accept on a moral level Reylo. At all. Just because there is a huge difference between Padme/Anakin and Rey/Kylo. Not to mention that - IMO - in AOTC George wanted to underline not only Anakin's mistake, but that of Padme too.
     
    #5449 lealt, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:48 PM
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 1:18 PM
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  10. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    thank you for sharing that @lealt, i really enjoyed reading that.

    if anything, it enforces how i feel about these so-called divisions within the fan base. We all have such a unique and personal story about our Star Wars journey, that i refuse to accept that there are 'lovers' or 'haters' grouped together in the way that many are referencing on a regular basis.

    again, that's where we are all different. I'm not in the least bit interested in the morals of the story.. i just want special moments.
    How i felt the first time i watched Luke staring at the twin suns in ANH to an awesome JW score is all i want from Star Wars movies.. those moments.. to feel like i did that first time.

    ANH: i thought was special from start to finish.
    ESB: some magical scenes, a few 'iffy' ones.
    ROTJ: entire second half was special, i struggle to watch the first half (i find it a bit boring if truth be told lol, but don't tell anyone i said that)

    TPM: some spectacular scenes, lots of painful dialogue
    AOTC: some great scenes, some painful dialogue
    ROTS: some wonderful moments (i find the section as Anakin is about to turn and Padme is looking out over Coruscant knowing that something is wrong... is beautiful and haunting)

    TFA: the first 40 minutes blow my mind. the rest... meh.. it's ok, but if i could have 2.5 hrs of what we had at the beginning of this movie i would die a happy man!
    TLJ: some staggering moments. i think i may have been dribbling the first time i saw the Supremacy cut in half, and i can't put into words how wonderful Luke's final scene is (to me)...i get quite emotional each time i watch it.


    whether it was the OT, the PT or if The Force awakens was your 'first' Star Wars movie that affected you greatly.. we shouldn't judge new movies on what came before, we should simply hope to feel that way again when we watch the new movies.

    I've seen movies I,II,III,VI,VII,VIII, R1 & Solo all on opening night. if i had a time machine, the first thing i'd do is go back to 1977 & 1980 to complete that list. i'm so proud that i've seen them opening night... it upsets me that some of you here are talking about missing opening night next year, and possibly not seeing it at the Cinema at all.

    who cares what the damn movie is about? it's a Star Wars movie and the end of the saga - the last chance we will ever get to see a saga movie opening night... get your asses to the theater next December! :p


    I hope nobody takes offence to anything i write here. I love Star Wars and i refuse to leave you guys alone in here. I hate the thread with every fiber of my being, but i admit it has helped many of you. Whilst 'venting' is healthy... sitting in this thread all year is not in my opinion. I don't see many of you taking part in the fun threads and competitions here.. venture out a little more ;)
     
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  11. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    I know and I respect that. I really do.
    But just like you said, there must be a reason if sometimes the personal experiences of a movie can differ so much.
    That is my reason. And it's personal, of course it is.
    At same time I thank you for coming here and for sharing your feelings and your experiences with such a nice touch and such a constructive spirit.
    That it is how it should be, but it's not easy for none of us.
    Still, we have to try.
    And I can't give up on hope ;)
    Fingers crossed then... and may the Force be with us.
     
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  12. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    And this is what gets me. As angry as I am about TLJ, the new film is just that, a new Star Wars film. I didn't see IV or V on opening day, but from VI onward I've seen every one of them either on opening day or opening weekend (I was in the Navy and missed the opening week of II). I figure I'll end up seeing IX on opening weekend, although probably not the first day, because I won't be able to not go.

    And like you said, everyone of these films has some awesome moments. Mine are slightly different, but I'd say:
    I: The scene where the door opens in the hanger and Darth Maul is standing there.
    II: I love the scene where Mace, Yoda and Ki Adi Mundi are sitting across from Sidious. I also love seeing Coruscant at night.
    III: The duel between Obi Wan and Anakin. Waiting almost 30 years for that one. and it didn't let me down.
    IV: The entire iflm is awesome
    V: The duel between Luke and Vader is fantastic. So is the assault of the rebel base on Hoth
    VI: The final duel between Anakin andVader and of course the battle of Endor.
    VII: I really liked the scene in the forest at night with the snow and the lightsabers.
    VIII even though I don't like the film, and I hate the HOldo maneuver, I did love the scene where the Finalizer is split in half. It was a beautifyl scene.

    Yeah, I'll be there. No doubt about it.
     
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  13. TrumanJ

    TrumanJ Rebel General

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    I do want Disney to continue making Star Wars films. I don’t think I’ll have a problem with new sagas. I love rogue 1 and solo. I liked episode vii until episode viii. This is the first time I truly disagreed with the direction of any film. I know I won’t care how they handle new characters in new sagas because it’ll be their story.

    Deciding to take a risk and challenge the status quo of the Luke and leia story and basically change everything at episode viii was not the best time in my opinion. This trilogy was supposed to end the skywalker story. We barely see them. I personally don’t count these as the skywalker saga.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 7, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Original Post Date: Dec 7, 2018 at 2:24 AM ---
    I wish I could let it go and not care what the movie is about. But I can’t with Star Wars. It’s a big part of my life. It’s my escape. It’s the only way I can tell Disney that I’m upset with how they wasted a chance to end this saga properly.

    You hate this thread. I hate that I feel this way about this movie.
     
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  14. Maximus

    Maximus Jedi General

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    there's always hope! x
    so glad to hear that!
    we're all a part of the same family, and like all families.. we all need to find a way to come together next Christmas.
    that's interesting. ignoring Leia for the moment.. what was the status quo for Luke?
    does everyone remember that KK famously asked JJ Abrams (when she was trying to convince him to come one board for TFA) "who is Luke Skywalker?"

    i'm gonna throw something up that will sound quite mad up into the air - so please forgive me lol...

    I no longer see Luke as the hero that saved his father, and somehow managed to reject the dark side of the force. I see him as a unique product of the force the same as Anakin. They were conceived by the force... and i do not believe that the whole light/dark rules that apply to everyone else in the galaxy apply to them.
    I don't believe that Luke rejected the dark side in the Emperor's throne room.. because he is the force - both light & dark.

    remember that image of Anakin from the Art of the Force Awakens?
    [​IMG]

    what if that is the true legacy of the Skywalkers? what if they can never only be light or dark?

    how could Luke sense 'good' in his father? we all thought that Luke pulled Anakin from the dark side to the light... but what if he didn't?

    see the below image..
    [​IMG]
    what if every Skywalker is incapable of being anything but the chap in the middle? free to make choices.. but never truly light or dark?
    it would certainly fit with the way Ben Solo is don't you think? he has vocally told us that he feels a pull to the light.

    what better way of bringing the force into balance... than making beings of the force that are balanced?


    there's a better than average chance that all of the above is a big pile of smelly cat poo, but who is Luke Skywalker? what is the force? what is balance?

    some random thoughts to confuse you more than you already were :p

    :)
     
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  15. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    @Maximus I’d love to see addressed the idea that the Skywalker’s line is somehow cursed.
    That imo could have been something to use to explain Luke’s behavior. And maybe it’s not too late. Especially if they are going to address as well the Plagueis issue into the mix.
    Maybe Luke and Kylo learned that he created Anakin.
    And you don’t need to have him back or making Snoke him.
    You just have to tell that they know that truth.
    Fan service sure. But a good one, story wise. Not to mention that maybe we really need a little bit of fan service given the circumstances.
    However, with or without Plagueis into the mix, you may still work with the idea of the cursed Skywalker. And that would tied brilliantly with the idea of Rey unrelated, giving it more weigh without dismissing the story told so far.
    Quite the contrary. And it may fit perfectly a bitter sweet finale, with the Skywalker’s legacy fully passed to people that earned it not because of blood but because of value among the Jedi and the Republic, Military ranks.
     
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  16. TrumanJ

    TrumanJ Rebel General

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    Well the end of rotj shows that he brought Anakin back to the light. When his force ghost was with obi-wan and yoda at the end.

    All Jedi can be light or dark. It’s their choices and experiences which define their side. Being a Jedi, the way I understand it, is a constant battle of choosing a proper path and not letting the ends justifying the means.

    There is good and evil in all of us. Nobody is perfect and I’m sure if I were a Jedi it’d be no different. To truly become evil takes a certain type of individual.

    I like your hypothetical question, but the Luke I know took on the impossible and won. Didn’t hide because of a mistake anybody could make. We all make mistakes. I’ve made some bad ones and didn’t run and hide.

    If the skywalkers were a creation, I don’t think I’d accept it as an excuse. Luke was born by normal reproduction, only Anakin was through the force. But in the end they were human and had all the necessary tools to make choices on their own. To choose their own path. Plus yoda’s conversation with Luke would’ve been different before he set the tree on fire and burned the books. Yoda basically gave Luke a kick in the butt for feeling sorry for himself. I would like to think yoda would’ve known by tlj if the skywalkers were cursed and been the one to tell him.

    If they can’t be only light or dark, that just means they’re normal human beings that can make mistakes like everyone else and have to keep their power in check.
     
    #5456 TrumanJ, Dec 7, 2018 at 7:15 PM
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  17. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Alright, I’ve been overwhelmed with work for the past few days, so I was unable to weigh in on this discussion at the time it was circulating this thread. Now that I have the opportunity, I’d like to contribute my own two Republic Credits on the matter.

    As someone who endured the jading blowback against the Prequel Trilogy firsthand back in the day, to the point where I stayed off Star Wars message boards for an entire decade just to avoid getting caught up in it, I can absolutely vouch for reactions like this that existed in portions of the fanbase at the time.

    But that’s just what the size of this blowback was. Portions. Most of the ire against the PT wasn’t against Anakin turning evil and committing atrocious acts as a Sith acolyte—in fact, as memory serves, that was a change that ROTS brought that jaded fans were applauding as a positive change for Anakin’s depiction in the PT—most of it had to do with writing choices like the focus on politics, the stale romance, the inclusion of midichlorians. These latter complaints were what the majority of SW fans disliked about the PT, but even then, it wasn’t ire or disgust that rattled the entire fanbase, or Star Wars consumers at large.

    The narrative choices of TLJ have affected fans and basic consumers on a whole different level. Common movie-goers, not hardcore fans like you and me, are very much polarized by this film. There is no neutral stance on this film—for every person who hates it, there’s someone else out there that absolutely hate it. And the choices made to unravel this era, conflict, and cast of characters through this trilogy has united entire groups of people in open disdain against the new direction in ways the PT movies couldn’t even marginally achieve. For some people, the narrative choices in here have not only ruined entire characters for them, but their investment in the franchise going forth. I’ve read posts from fans who have been dedicated to this brand for over 40 years, who are now ceasing their endeavors to collect figures or merch—a task they’ve upheld for decades up till now with unwavering enthusiasm—all because of how TLJ ruined their perception of Star Wars. They can’t go back and watch scenes like ROTJ’s ending without entering exhaustive states of depression, knowing what happens to every single character smiling and celebrating in the firelight of this scene.

    Anakin can kill all the younglings he like, and pull Padme’s beating heart from her chest—and his actions in ROTS still wouldn’t have split the fanbase like TLJ has. Why? Because the PT didn’t take characters that people had been attached to for decades and deflower them to shame and humiliation in service of emboldening a cast of wooden caricatures posing as the new protagonists. Whatever the PT’s failings were, it kept those failings to itself—if you hated Jar Jar, or Child Anakin, or the stale romance, or the emphasis on CG instead of practical effects, it didn’t take anything away or directly affect anything to do with Han, Luke, Leia, or their adventures in the OT. It didn’t disembowel their personality traits, undo their character growth, or subject them to bitter showcases of character assassination. But for many people who hate the ST films, TLJ in particular, that’s precisely what the writers have done, and to try and side-step the issue by claiming that the “PT divided as many people, so it’s fine” is not only a massive mischaracterization of the issue, but a selective recontextualizing of the PT blowback into something it wasn’t in order to downplay any resentment towards the ST.

    None of the attitudes I’ve mentioned above largely applies to me: the OT wasn’t ruined for me, because I wasn’t married to it like a lot of fans are. I liked all six films, and only indulged in them half as much as I did in the Star Wars Expanded Universe of comics, games, and novels. I’m merely stating what I’ve observed in the responses from other fans I’ve encountered who are even more abhorred with these films than I am.

    And as someone who loves the Prequel Trilogy, and witnessed the backlash against it firsthand, I can absolutely say that to claim that the PT Backlash is in anyway similar to the ST backlash is to willingly rewrite history.

    The PT only divided hardcore fans, and at worst, didn’t impress casual audiences. The ST has divided both hardcore fans AND casual audiences in a chasmic fashion that the PT didn’t.

    I can’t speak for everyone, but my issue with these current films isn’t that they don’t match the Original Trilogy.

    As stated, I’m not married to the OT; my investment with the franchise doesn’t start and end with those films. I’ve read, watched, and enjoyed several pieces of Star Wars fiction produced by people who aren’t George Lucas for years—all telling completely different stories that deviate, subvert, or sometimes even dwarf the OT in terms of scope, depth, characterization or originality. My ability to enjoy these stories does not stem from my nostalgic attachment to the OT—it’s in their objective value as well-written, wildly-creative status as good stories.

    The ST is not a good story, not an original one, and not a creative one. That is why I utterly despise these films and consider them to be the ultimate low standard for the Star Wars Franchise, not because they don’t resemble the OT enough. In fact, quite frankly, my issues with them partially stem from how suffocatingly-similar they try to be to the OT films, despite replicating aspects of those movies on a painfully-shallow and superficial level.

    I don’t communicate with LFL or its employees on any kind of basis, let alone a daily one. If there are people out there harassing anyone involved in the current franchise, then I don’t condone their actions—and neither, I suspect, do the other people who post on this thread. Which only makes your bringing up of the matter even more strange, since none of us here are guilty of harassing anyone.

    And you’ll have to pardon my cynicism, but I doubt a corporate monolith like Disney is going to swayed by the incessant ramblings of a few extremist fans in their endeavor to turn Star Wars into a bone-dry cash cow. Be it rational fan or screeching internet troll, no one is going to convince Disney to stop their pursuit of future films—it’s like expecting a dinosaur to be frightened by ants. Your fear that “harassment” will prevent the creation of future films is not only ill-founded, but incredibly illogical. This is the same company that willingly continues to put out Pirates of the Caribbean films in spite of being destroyed by critical reviews and the continued controversies swarming Johnny Depp. You really think they’re going to develop coy cheeks at the prospect of internet harassment and bad press? I think not. The only thing that caused Bob Iger to change his approach to Star Wars and cease his incredibly-imbecilic and jaw-droppingly idiotic tactic of releasing Star Wars films on an annual basis was the financial Lovecraftian nightmare that was Solo: A Star Wars Story. Financial progress is what sways Disney, not its fans or detractors.

    As long as money exists, Disney will always find it necessary and essential to make more Star Wars films. Even if, as the ST movies prove, the quality and integrity of the franchise is shamelessly violated in the process.

    This is a no-brainer. I would happily choose no more Star Wars films over a plethora of poorly-written and creatively-bankrupt ones. What kind of an ultimatum is that?

    I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but we went an entire decade without Star Wars films just recently: it was the ten years of non-film activity that followed ROTS. There were no plans in sight to make more movies. And do you want to know what terrible fate befell the franchise? We had the production of what is quite possibly the best Star Wars television series in existence, a wealth of excellent novels that covered multiple eras in the universe, some of the best comics Dark Horse has ever made, and a waning but continued focus on video game tie-ins. In short, Star Wars was very much alive, and arguably in a far better place than it is now.

    And the simple virtue of there being new Star Wars films isn’t good enough. They have to be good to make me care, and if they don’t exist to further the universe or push the franchise in new directions, then they shouldn’t be made. And what have the new Star Wars films brought? A copy-paste job of the era and conflict of the OT for no in-universe reason outside of shamelessly pandering to nostalgia and introducing new characters that contribute less interesting things to the overall universe than the nameless background bounty hunter characters in filler episodes of The Clone Wars TV Show. These new films do not exist to serve any kind of creative vision—they have nothing resembling a plan, are made and formulated to service the most barebones and uncreative plot so that audiences don’t fall asleep, and introduce almost no new elements to the Star Wars universe at all. On top of that, they were written with all of the quality and consistency of a drunk text message, with familial and character drama that doesn’t even register the pulse of an underwater fart. These movies do not exist for the long-term creative necessity, unique contributions, or to service some larger story that even the PT movies did…the ST movies exist for the months that they release in, and the box-office quotas they’re designed to rope in, and nothing more. They are disposable, short-term, uninspired creations that do more to push the series back than forward, all because of the creative incompetence of the directors and writers and the blatant play-it-safe, no-risk approach that the corporate vultures at Disney are cowering behind to please their shareholder masters.

    The question you are essentially posing is the same as me going to a lifelong fan of the Transformers toy and cartoon franchise, someone who’s scene everything from G1 to Beast Wars to Prime, and asking them: “Would you rather Paramount and Michael Bay stop making new Transformers movies than continue to make movies that aren't in the direction that you think they should be going?” Do you have any idea how quickly and vitriolically I would receive my answer?

    This question seems to imply that I should be grateful that I’m getting new Star Wars films at all, that I should overlook the ST’s poor quality by virtue of them being Star Wars films. Sorry, but I refuse to lower my standards like that. The squandered potential they had to spearhead an original, well-written, and completely disctinct new era only makes their flaws as films all the more heinous and inexcusable.

    If having no more Star Wars films also means not having repulsive, exploitative, nostalgia-milking, poorly-written messes like the ST in the future, then I think I’d rather live in an era without any Star Wars films at all… and considering we went ten years without any, whilst having some of the best Star Wars stories ever told in the form of TCW and all of the novels/comics of that era, that’s not an undesirable future in the slightest.


    I watched all six of the Star Wars films in a single summer, and developed my own appreciation for the franchise through the continued indulgence in spin-off material that all told wildly-different stories, and regularly challenged the conventions of the films.

    I don’t judge the ST based on how they measure up to the previous films any more than I judge my favorite SW novels or comics based on how they measure up to the films at large: I judge them solely on their own merits, and the story they’re trying to tell.

    And by that same isolated standard, the ST movies are awful stories, told abhorrently, with the kind of narrative blunders that would be panned in any other film or work, but are getting a free pass here simply through the novelty of being Star Wars movies.

    See, that is the exact standard I’m never going to adopt. I refuse to support a bad product simply because it’s representing a franchise I hold dear. I have more respect for myself, my money, and the brand to indulge in sloppy work. I care what the films are about, because I care about the overall story and universe. And a couple of pretty or superficially whimsical moments in an otherwise dismal story will not change that.

    So, yeah. I’ll have to decline. I think I’ll just spend December of 2019 at home with my friends, marthoning Rebels and indulging in a story that won’t insult my intelligence.

    Regardless, I hope you and others have a good time watching the film, and you get what you want out of this trilogy overall.

    Not offense. Nothing you state can be construed as offensive, just disagreeable at most from the perspective of those on the other side of the TLJ fence, like myself.

    You don’t necessarily have to “leave us alone” here, but if you’re going to have to try a little hard to win over support for the ST than the arguments you’ve provided. Especially when they consist of invalid comparisons to the PT backlash, directed towards a thread of people who have spent the last few pages re-evaluating their appreciation for the prequels in light of the dismal new films, as well as the urging to participate in Episode 9’s release simply not to be left behind in the wake of a new Star Wars movie.

    That last approach certainly isn’t going to work with someone like me, who’s refused to contribute to a Star Wars theatrical box office since 2015.

    This is something I’ve explained several times before, and I’ll likely have to reiterate until I’m bluer in the face than Grand Admiral Thrawn:

    It is very easy to chide and playfully scold the people on this thread for being hermits that only cling to this discussion when you enjoy the ST, and the ST is the dominating topic of Star Wars right now. Every thread, topic, poll, discussion, debate and feverish onslaught of speculation that sweeps relevant and re-visited threads on this forum relate to the Sequel Trilogy; all about the fates of the characters, the themes that will be explored, and the climactic plot elements that will occur in Episode 9. For people who are jaded and thoroughly unimpressed with the new films, and have absolutely no investment or passion for the characters or story at this point (or in my case, since TFA), the urging to take part in these threads is like urging a vegetarian to take part in a meat-centric all-you-can-eat buffet. There’s just no motivation to do so. There’s no reason for most of us to be excited.

    There’s a reason I don’t pen these extensive, essay-length posts of mine on other threads; because there’s nothing for me to talk about. Sure, I’m a fan of the Prequel Trilogy and the Expanded Universe, but how many active and regularly-circulating threads are there on those topics? I would be shouting into the void, roaming a wastelend of empty topics and non-existent participants.

    It’s nice for you, because you’re likely excited for Episode 9, you like the ST enough to participate in other threads where people will share that excitement and anticipation with you….but we don’t have that. That’s not a jab towards you personally, that’s just a practical assessment of the situation at hand. And I’m not even going to begin explaining why I’m not indulging in the hype for non-movie products, because then I would be ranting about the absolutely pathetic state of the current canon, and the spectacular atrocity that is the current novels, comics, and games. So not only am I unable to participate in any discussions on the new films due to lack of interest, but the stale and uncreative state of the supplementary material prevents me from indulging in discussions on that either.

    I’m literally isolated to this thread, and the occasional updates to my User Status. Not because of anti-social tendencies or resentment towards my fellow forum users, but because Star Wars is so haggard and lifeless in every other sense, with my interest in future projects all but quelled because of jaded, preformed anticipation of the same kind of poor decisions to plague them as well.

    At least the interactions with other users on this thread offer some enjoyment. It almost makes you forget what a bad place Star Wars is in at the moment.

    …Almost.
     
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  18. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    @Darth_Nobunaga I love your posts man. Seriously. You always make me think, and you bring up points I don't think I would have thought of.

    1. The idea that it's better to demand good films vs. support this stuff blindly. I once joked I'd probably go see any film with the title Star Wars on it, even if it was a pile of poop, simply because it is Star Wars. I have to admit, I was happy to be getting new films, and I'd hate to go back to the dark times of 1984-1990 or so when there was absolutely nothing. Of course, we will NEVER EVER go back there. At worse we could be back to 2006-2015, and as you rightly point out, there was PLENTY of good product in books, comics and TV. I'd rather be in that situation than in a situation where we get crappy films, and TLJ was absolute crap.

    I'll probably see IX, but I won't see it opening day and if I do see it opening weekend they will have to convince me it is worth it to go see it at the theater. I don't know how they can do that, but hopefully they will.

    2. I love how you point out the ST serves no purpose and has no plan. It is a shamless copy of the OT. They offer no creative vision and offer nothing new to the universe that is Star Wars. I totally agree. What REALLY gets me is how this happened? How???? Vapid heroes and even more vapid story telling. People can bash the PT, I know I sure have, but the story was good. It developed the universe and told an interesting story. This garbage they served up is just that, garbage. It has rendered the OT utterly useless and destroyed the character arcs of the main characters of that trilogy. So what was the freakin point???

    3. What is really shocking for me, is my lack of excitement for a Star Wars film. I never thought I'd say that. Heck, I'm more excited about the new Avengers film this spring than IX. I NEVER ever thought I'd say that. A bit of anecdotal evidence about how bad the ST is: I teach high school kids and out of the 120 some odd students I had last spring, one, ONE went to see Solo. None of them has said they liked TLJ (I asked but was sure when I asked to not show my cards). A TON of kids came in Friday and asked if I had seen the new Avengers trailer. I know it's not scientific, but the kids I know (most of whom are hispanic so this isn't a "white male thing" as some at LFL argue) are just not excited about Star Wars. At least not about the ST. Avengers? Heck yeah. And that is sad. LFL has, as I love to say, screwed the pooch on this one.

    Their decision to essentially reset the universe was idiotic. I can't even make a coherent argument as this situation just pisses me off. I'm off to read the Truce at Bakura. After that I'm reading the first book of the New Jedi Order. Like you've said, plenty of other good star Wars product to enjoy without having to support these crap films.
     
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  19. TrumanJ

    TrumanJ Rebel General

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    because of the creative incompetence of the directors and writers and the blatant play-it-safe, no-risk approach that the corporate vultures at Disney are cowering behind to please their shareholder masters.

    @Darth_Nobunaga i have to disagree with you a bit on your quote. I believe they took a major risk with the way they wrote Luke.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:35 AM, Original Post Date: Dec 10, 2018 at 2:08 AM ---
    @Maximus - I agree about myself not taking part in some of the other things this sight has to offer. I have ventured out to see what other threads interest me. the one that does is the Talk about all things EU thread.

    I’m a little late to the party on this website. Most people talked about it a couple of years ago. but at least @Darth Wardawg is going to start reading “the new Jedi order” book series which is what I’m currently re-reading. Hopefully he and I will be able to discuss this great book series which is 21 books in length.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:51 AM ---
    People can bash the PT, I know I sure have, but the story was good.
    @Darth Wardawg - I remember when tpm came out and people were complaining about jar jar and the acting etc. I remember thinking that people were crazy. I know jar jar was annoying and some of the acting was sub par... but for people to hate the movies or complain about them surprised me. I thought they were nuts.

    And you’re definitely right. The OT is utterly useless now. Maybe Disney is planning on redoing the OT.
     
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  20. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Yeah, I do agree agree they took a big risk with Luke. I still can't understand why. I get Han. Ford didn't want to come back, and if I remember correctly was the last of the "Big 3" to sign up for it. I also get having Kylo kill off his dad to establish his "evil" credentials, too bad they then ruin him by having Rey best him in a duel... :(

    I never care if I'm late to the party, I'll start a conversation anyway. :) I should finish the Truce at Bakura this week and then I'll get started on the New Jedi Order. I love R.A. Salvatore so I'm quite happy he gets it started. Heck, I remember when the book "The Crystal Shaard" came out back in the day (I was in high school). I loved and still love Drizzt. Great character. I'll definitely discuss the series with you man.
     
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