THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Apart from Bloodline, I haven't read a single piece of EU in my life, new or old... Not my thing ... so no, I didn't get it from there. On my second or third viewing of TFA I thought that Rey's doll was resting on an old computer like those found in the rebel base on Crait, but after a recent viewing I realised that doll was resting on an old metal box, so yes, you're right, I was mistaken.

However, Rey admits to Finn she has had experience flying, even though she has never left Jakku. It's just a line of dialogue which I'm sure will not satisfy the kind of over indulgent character signposting so many of you wish to see in these movies.

My point in that post you refer to was to give a quick overview of how Rey’s character is fleshed out at the beginning of the movie, which I think not only informs Rey’s trajectory from self-denying to fully invested heroine during the course of TFA and TLJ, but also makes her sympathetic and believable.

 

I thought they did a good job at first in making Rey and interesting character. That opening scene for her, when she's alone in the downed Star Destroyer, that was awesome. Really did a good job of showing this self reliant young woman who is alone in the universe. They didn't tell me, they showed me.

Then.... they don't do much with her. She becomes flat and boring. Very little arc, and unexplained powers. They set up questions that lead to dead ends. Example: "Who is Rey?" "Why does the Skywalker lightsaber call to her?" Answer: She is no one, don't worry about it. Then why set up a trailer in which Luke says "You have that power too"???? Trolling the fans? They set it up for her to be someone, only to then say, "Ha, JUST KIDDING!!!" What are her motivations for getting involved in all of this? She runs into Finn and just starts following along. She could easily have said, "leave me alone freak!" She wants to help? She so easily takes up the 'hero's journey" that it just feels forced. My opinion. In A New Hope, Luke turns it down, only to accept it when he really has no choice, seeing as how the empire kills his uncle and aunt. He then decides he WANTS to become a Jedi.

The narrative tone of these films also doesn't, in my opinion, fit in with the other saga films. They LOOK like Star Wars films, but they don't feel like it. They've given up the mythical heroes journey for whatever this is. And the look of the films... Why does it look like NOTHING has happened? It's been 30 years and we are still seeing X-wings and Tie Fighters... Storm troopers still look the same. It's like these films are set 2-3 years after ROTJ, except when it comes to the narrative.

A second thing that gets me, and I know others have pointed this out, is the lack of world building. We are reset back to where we were in IV. No forward progression in the story, so what was the point of IV-VI anyway?

Sorry for the length. It just feels like they really missed a golden opportunity and quite honestly, there is little hope for the ST at this point.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 12, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 12, 2018 ---

I'm going to check out all of these! The Tales of the Jedi especially sounds cool and so does the KOTOR. That is a great period, from what I've read so far.

 

I can’t answer that and give what would be many examples without getting extremely personal - also against the rules here.

I’m furious that for the umpteenth time this thread has descended into post after post of abuse aimed at all things SW when it is has been made clear time and time again why this thread has remained open, and what the limits are. Not only are the rules being broken, but it is by the same few posters day after day after day.

I persist in reading and posting on this thread to support the many MANY members who did not enjoy TLJ and are hurting about it. They are being drowned out by a loud few who are throwing over-the-top abuse aimed at SW back and forth like a tennis match.

I care more about the cantina and it’s members than I do about Star Wars. I couldn’t care less about TLJ or the saga anymore.. the negativity has soured everything.

 

I just ignore it..

 

@Maximus Personally, except for a brief time back in July, I find the conversation here to be quite good. I myself tend to avoid the thread "For Those Who Loved the Last Jedi" as I know I'm just going to get into an argument, and that is the last thing I'm interested in doing. Believe it or not. The commentary and analysis offered by, for example, @Darth_Nobunaga is, in my opinion, top notch and insightful.

Do some of us, myself included, get a little off topic? Sure. But to say it's "over-the-top-abuse" I think isn't fair. Just my opinion. I usually agree with a lot of your posts and even when I don't, I can see the logic. This is the one time where I don't.

 

I have heard the complaint you make here many times, that Rey does not have a hero’s arc like Luke’s, and my answer to it is always the same: I disagree. Rey’s arc is there, different from Luke’s, with other emphases, but still there. It starts with her having dreams of adventure, with that sparkle in the eye she displays when she meets Finn and talks about heroes and the resistance, but she is also tied down to jakku, to the hope of seeing her parents again, a lie that keeps her a prisoner, that makes her refuse the hero’s journey at maz’s castle, even though the force shows her she has a part in the big story, that her parents abandoned her, that “the belonging she seeks is ahead, not behind”, and it has something to do with Luke. It is also not coincidence that Rey’s caring and principled nature is so very much fleshed out at the beginning of the movie: This honorable part of her, this innate sense of duty and fairness displayed in her dealings with teedo and unkar, will compel her to “help” Finn to bring BB8 to his base and help the resistance. This is what makes her deep her toe in the adventure in front of her, even though she is not fully committed. In TFA Rey only properly responds to her destiny’s call during her lightsaber fight with Kylo, but it is in TLJ when her character, prior to embracing action, properly confronts her demons: the truth that her parents are not only never coming back for her, but also that they did not care about her or love her. She also learns that Kylo’s inner conflict is more complex than she previously thought and that saving him is not her goal as a heroine.

It is also important to add that Rey’s powers have been explained in TLJ: she is powerful with the force and by the force in order to counterbalance Kylo’s power... and it is not like the force has not created powerful characters out of nowhere before in SW history... I’m talking about Anakin, of course.

As for JJ, he introduced a story not with empty questions but with possibilities for the next person writing the story, at least as far as I’m concerned, and RJ introduced many interesting concepts and a film with more complexity and adult appeal than TFA. Neither film is perfect, but they are both good, with different strengths, but overall good.

I will also add that, even though I love these films Disney has made, I would have loved seeing, or at least knowing about, George Lucas’s version of the sequel, whills and all... and I wait anxiously for the day a documentary comes out telling us about those early plans Lucas had for these films and why Disney and Lucasfilm decided not to use them.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 13, 2018 ---

As for the level and tone of the discussion in this thread I’d say the following: just because someone writes well, discusses their points to exhaustion and offers lively entertaining rants about their dislike of all new SW, it does not necessarily mean that said rants are in any way balanced or fair pieces of criticism... or that they are free of bashing vitriol and/or sly condescending comments made with the sole purpose of undermining the validity of any point or argumentation the opponent may bring forth with much less picturesque turn of phrase yet infinitely more respect, tact and consideration for the judgement, opinion and feelings of the other side.

Just saying.

 

I can’t say I know what you’re referring to, at least as far as the last five or so pages of this thread are concerned. I don’t see a whole lot of personal attacks or abuse of any sort being inflicted on anyone or anything. Most of the conversation as of late appears to be the idea of negatively comparing TLJ and the ST at large to either previous Star Wars films, the EU, or in my case, shows like Clone Wars or Rebels. That in itself omits the notion that abuse is being directed at “all things Star Wars”, when in actuality, it’s positive feedback to the majority of Star Wars motivating a wealth of criticism against TLJ. Not exactly “all things”, if you catch my drift.

And further, if there are any rules or parameters being broken, I’m sure the mods would’ve stepped in by now. I haven’t seen any kind of outright bashing going on—people are providing reasons and arguments as to why they’re upset. I was under the assumption that “bashing” referred to all insults and no criteria. Which isn’t the tone of these last few pages of this thread at all.

Regarding this matter, if you want to “support” those that are disdainful and emotionally wrecked because of TLJ, I’d advise against most of the methods you’ve been using so far. More specifically, trying to comfort detractors of the film by gushing about all the reasons you like it and how you’re able to rationalize the writing decisions in the film like you did a few pages earlier, is not going to work for most people. If people are posting on a thread with “HATE” in the title, I don’t think they’re going to be swayed by someone fanboying/girling out about how much of the film works for them—it’s the equivalent of the Evangelist trying to convert the Atheist by swooning about how much Jesus makes them feel good. You’re appealing to the opposition in the least effective and ideal way possible.

People who flock this thread don’t see the same good things you do in the film, and you’re likely not going to change their minds. So if you’re going to try and comfort them, I’d recommend a different method.

If the reactions of other people is enough to sway you from your liking of the film, that’s entirely your prerogative, and no one else’s. I have an undying infatuation for the Prequel Trilogy, and bashing those films and showering contempt on George Lucas because of them has been the internet’s favorite pastime for the last decade.

And you don’t see me affected by any of it. I wear my PT Fan Badge regardless of what people think.

So, to conclude: Rey is a wide-eyed, honorable, charitable, dutiful, just, principled, caring, flawless wellspring of angelic traits whose strongest flaw is that she wants desperately to see her parents.

That has to be the most uninspired mountain of character fluff that could apply to almost 99% of basic heroic characters in fiction, with almost no distinguishing factors whatsoever. She’s about as original and exciting as a drop of room-temperature water in the ocean.

Reminds me of the thousands of Sonic OC Characters polluting Deviantart: “This character is good, and kind, and good, and just and honorable, and wants to see her parents, and her power level is over 9000 ORIGINAL CHARACTER, DO NUT STEAL!111!!!@11!”

What bottom-tier standard for Star Wars characters.

It’s not Rey’s capacity to be powerful that people take issue with. It’s her skill level. People like Luke and Anakin were born with boundless potential in the Force, but they still required training to be skilled in things like lightsaber combat and Force Proficiency. That’s why you’ll see Rey’s obscene combat prowess as one of the chief complaints listed in reviews by even commonplace movie-goers.

But what most of these people aren’t aware of is that there actually is an explanation for why Rey is so skilled with a Lightsaber and Force Mastery…according to the TLJ novelization, it’s revealed that during Rey and Kylo’s Force mind meld, Rey was able to sync over all of Kylo Ren’s years of training from his brain.

I wish I were kidding. She literally downloads Force knowledge and training from Kylo Ren. We are now witnessing Matrix-esque downloading stupidity in the Star Wars mythos.

I remember telling that to my Dad when he asked me how Rey learned to wield a lightsaber as proficiently as Kylo Ren, and he nearly laughed himself into a coma.

Overall good to you, but not good by any objective metric of writing or storytelling.

In the slim case that this is in any way referring to me and my posts, I should point out that the quickest way to expose criticism as unbalanced or unfair is to counter with objective evidence, knowledge of writing, or comparisons to other works where aspects of the ST does or does not work.

Moreover, I have yet to find vitriol, bashing, or abuse in my posts, or anyone else’s from the last five or so pages. If there are, you always have the ability to report them to moderators as a violation of the forum rules.

In addition, vitriol cannot undermine valid arguments; only counterpoints do. And I make a point of countering every single absurd point I come across, with a sprinkle of hyperbolic language and whirlwind theatrics, as one ought to when penning exhaustive rants on the Internet. There is not one baseless or evidence-lacking point I’ve made on this thread that amounts solely to vitriol or bashing. They aren’t invalid merely because you may or may not agree with them.

 

no.. they wont. allowing this (and the other 'threads for those..') thread to exist at all is already against the rules of the forum as it has no topic. it has no resounding conversation subject.. it's a hang out, a private club. it's divisive to the point of insulting.
in a world where we're all trying to fight this rubbish.. creating threads with a sign on the door that says "for these types of people only" is frankly draconian.
The staff and mods can't keep this thread on track because it never had a track.
They give their own free time to make SWNN what it is, and to say they have had a rough and stressful year since TLJ came out would be an understatement. I don't blame them for allowing this thread, and it has clearly helped many members since last year.
looking at the last.. jeez.. dozens of pages, the same 4 or 5 members are saying the same things over and over, and the same 3 (me, @Kylocity and @Rogues1138) posting and annoying those same 4 or 5.

I no longer see the benefits of this thread versus specific threads that could be made to discuss particular elements that are hated - they could at least be kept on track as they would have a clear topic.

all i see here is the same members keeping the thread going every day - almost out of routine. I think in most circumstances you'd take the discussion to a group PM perhaps.

please do not EVER accuse me of trying to convert or sway anyone over their opinion of a movie. that's unbelievably hurtful to write that when the intentions behind my posts were and always have been perfectly clear.
I'm upset that so many fans don't like the new movies.. not because i think they should, but because they are my friends/family. please don't refer to them as my 'opposition'. get to know a person before accusing someone of this stuff.

i couldn't say that without breaking another forum rule.. i replied to the poster and not the post, and it was personal. apologies.

 

This is just an opinion. You’re not invested in Rey’s journey, so you are not prepared to appreciate her self-denial in TFA or her naïveté and hubris in TLJ as distinguishing flaws in her character or these flaws as being strong enough to satisfy your taste and standards and that’s ok. As for how unoriginal and unexciting you find Rey I have absolutely nothing to say.

I have no clue what those Sonic OC characters are. I don’t really know the stuff you read or enjoy, but I personally like the arcs of female heroines in classical literature, like Jane Eyre, Elisabeth Bennet, Jo March, or in modern stories Katherine Johnson in Hidden Figures or Clarice Starling in Silence of the lambs. The trajectory of these heroines is understated and interestingly different to that of heroes in similar stories. Their calling to action, their challenges, their resolution of conflict is very different and follows different rules. If I like Rey it is precisely because she has not been turned into the female equivalent of a male hero, but made intrinsically femenine, like all those heroines I love, in her fears, her way of overcoming obstacles, in her desire to nurture and care for others. The evolution of Rey is subtle, it’s deeply internal, and I like that.

As for supporting our arguments with comparing the ST with other works or characters, I’d say it’s not always helpful. On occasion this practice may detract the attention from the story at hand and what it’s trying to convey or represent... You may, for instance, say Rey is a weak heroine if compared to Ripley in Alien, and I would say you’re comparing apples and pears. Ripley was a purposely masculine heroine, in the first film at least (which I thought was brilliant and very much celebrated btw). Ripley in that film, not so much in the subsequent ones, could have perfectly been played by a man. Rey on the other hand is a very purposely femenine character. Her penchant to remain in Jakku, suffer and wait are characteristics culturally associated with women. These character decisions were not aleatory, as Rey as a character was created to engage the imagination of girls and young women.


And please, before you counter my arguments (which I really encourage you to do and hope you do) remember that I am a person with a moderate intelligence and a decent cultural level, but mainly a person... and as such I prefer not being talked to as if I were an irritating nuisance who doesn’t get it... Thank you in advance for your cooperation. I otherwise enjoy reading your posts quite a lot

 

It is hardly "over indulgent sign posting" to wonder how a scavenger who can't even afford to feed herself can get behind the controls of the Millennium Falcon and, after about 10 seconds of bumping into things, all of a sudden fly it as well as (or even better than) anything we ever saw from Han Solo or Lando Calrissian in the OT (without a co-pilot by the way).

And my point is that if you have to rely on the EU to explain things in the movie, that's a shortcoming of the movie.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 13, 2018 ---

This. This this this this this. This.

I was talking with my girlfriend just yesterday about how 2019 is going to be a great year for entertainment and what we are each looking forward to. I am looking forward to Game of Thrones the most, then Avengers, then Star Wars, then Spider Man. If anyone told me 4 years ago that Star Wars would be #3 on my "most anticipated" list for the coming year, I would have laughed my butt off at them.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018 ---

So is telling other people what they can and can't post, or saying things like "I can't believe you people are still in here criticizing the movie! Get over it!"

Here's what is happening:The people who liked the movie are coming into the "HATED IT" thread and arguing left and right - then those same people turn around and complain about all the arguments taking place.

(By contrast, the people who hated the movie are overwhelmingly staying out of the "LOVED IT" thread).

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018 ---

No what's insulting is when there is a thread called "THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE" and people who like the movie come into that thread to argue and criticize the people who hated it.

Comments like "Yeah, basically the consensus is that Star Wars is trash now. WE GET IT. So why waste your time with it move on. Star Wars is Disney now. Its been dumbed down. WE GET IT. So when are YOU gonna get it? Take a hike." are insulting. Maybe you should point your sanctimony in that direction and not towards the people who are true to the purpose of the thread.

Here is the benefit of this thread: It is a great place for the people who hated the movie to vent. You seem to think if this thread closed then the venting would stop. That is a fallacy. The venting would move into other threads, and that would create a pretty big crapstorm.

 

And that's the thing with all of this, it is just opinion. I don't see Rey as having an arc and you do. I think she's quite poorly drawn out and developed as a character. At least in TLJ. I thought she started off well in TFA, but towards the end I was iffy on her. Knowing a Jedi mind trick, without seeing it ever done? How'd she know about it?

As for the explanation offered in TLJ, I thought it was pretty lame. But that's just me. If the light is rising to counterbalance the dark of Kylo I wonder where is the counter to Snoke? And I know the force has created other powerful force users such as Anakin in the past. But even Anakin had to train to learn the force. He was able to do things naturally, like pilot a pod racer. But he couldn't understand droid language, he wasn't gonna pick up a light saber for the first time and defeat a well trained force user on his first try.

This is the same problem I had with the trailer, when Luke says he's never felt such raw power. I criticized RJ for that line at the time, as showing a lack of understanding of the OT. How in the world can ANYONE say Kylo has more power than Palpatine???? Lines like that make me feel like the OT is just dismissed or not understood by RJ.

I've seriously not seen anything in here since July that was out of line. I left the entire site for a bit just to get away from it. At one point I was basically being stalked by someone who was jumping on everything I said. If there was someone being a jerk on here I'd have a problem with it.

It is impossible to have any sort of critical conversation about these characters without people taking it personally. I love, for example, Rogue One. I REALLY dig that film. I have watched it probably once a week on average since it came out on iTunes. I get that some people, including my buddy @Darth_Nobunaga don't like it. I don't feel the need to preach to him and argue with him to convince him that he is wrong and it is the best film ever. So what is it about TLJ that creates this sort of dichotomy?

And you are right, I don't go over to the "thread for those who love the last jedi." I have no business being there, as I know my presence and questions are going to just piss people off, which is not what I want to do.

 

In the film it is only established that she is short of food rations not that she lacks access to broken vehicles and parts... quite the opposite in fact being a scavenger.
And what’s so special about the millennium falcon? It’s just a ship, and jakku seems to have a few of those just lying around waiting for someone to take them apart or build them up again... what is so very special about flying in the SW’s universe? Surely it stands to reason that in such a vast interplanetary galaxy flying spaceships is our equivalent to driving a car.... Anakin was a grubby slave and a supper pilot, wasn’t he? Do we have to sign post this for Rey too? That story has already been told: poor kids in junk planets have easy access to vehicles. Period. I really don’t see why it is so hard to accept this...
There are a lot of things Han or Lando weren’t shown doing in the OT , but surprisingly enough nobody has a problem with these characters being so very sketchy...

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 13, 2018 ---

All the other examples I gave, and I gave a lot, were in the film. I do not read the EU.

 

So you are saying she ISN'T a scavenger???

"a person who searches for and collects discarded items." She seems to be a scavenger to me.

We know Han has had some sort of training as a pilot by the time he flies the Falcon in Solo. Lando is obviously an experienced pilot, as Qira knows him to be a pilot. Anakin isn't a pilot, but does have experience flying pod racers. His lack of experience shows in Episode I when he doesn't know what the buttons do and just starts messing around. Remember, the ship was on auto-pilot for most of his journey out to the Federation ship.

It's hard to accept in Rey's case cause we never hear of her having flown before. There could have been a line where she says she's flown ships in the atmosphere of Jakku or something like that. Problem solved.

It's the same problem I have with other entries in the Disney cannon where people suddenly understand droid language. How does she, and Poe and others know droid????

 

There's a certain amount of disconnect between fans, and it slides along differing spectrums. Using myself as an example, some things I can let go and other things I feel I have to respond to. For some people, some things make total sense in a universe of space wizards and spaceships, while to others it doesn't fit with what they felt the world was based on what they'd seen before.

There are some people I will just avoid interacting with, because experience has shown me it is frustrating and unsatisfying. I refuse to block anyone because I still like to read people's thoughts, and I would respond if referenced directly, but overall, I read and move on. We value different things in different ways in this fantasy world of ours.

I heartily agree with the last bit of the post about posting here rather than posting elsewhere and upsetting people. It confines our discord in a place where others could easily avoid while we can still make provocative points that upsets people and could force people to consider how they view the universe might have been skewed. I know I've been challenged that way several times and I've learned from those interactions. It has helped me consider different perspectives. It hasn't changed my overall view of TLJ or the ST, but at least I could understand on some level why others enjoy it. I think in some cases I've helped others understand why I don't.

Lastly, if you're considering referencing someone, do it very carefully and respectfully. Conversations don't always go the way you want or expect them to, that's what makes them fun to engage in. If someone doesn't respond in a way you find satisfying, maybe this isn't their first language, or they simply don't think of this universe in the same way or depth that you do, and that's okay. Or maybe they do, but they've engaged in it so often that it's really tiring and exhausting to go back into it in depth. We don't always feel like going in depth, especially in an adversarial way.

 

That’s exactly what I said, that she IS a scavenger and therefore she’s not short of parts and junk to make things and repair old ships. What she doesn’t have is food.

 

I would say the important part of the MF is that it is equipped with a hyperdrive and is space worthy. If things are so bad on Jakku that she's barely getting enough food to live, people who live there and are capable of flying said ships should probably be leaving and finding more prosperous locales. With that in mind, it's unlikely anyone would let someone who's as poor as Rey access to a ship fitted with a hyperdrive due to that risk. I can easily accept someone being able to build a "car", but fitting it with interstellar capabilities seems more like fitting your car with nuclear power engine. Not only dangerous, but likely illegal and very expensive. I would think a closer equivalent is atmospheric ships are cars, and space ships with hyperdrives are jet planes. Maybe having a class in between with land hugging ships and actually flying but not space worthy ships.

Han and Lando were older and not central characters like Rey, introduced to us with the assumption she was land bound her entire life. Han was introduced to us as a captain of a ship. Lando as a friend to said captain and reasonably successfully entrepreneur which implies wealth. Wealth implies access to things like interstellar ships. Had Rey been introduced as something other than a scavenger, and instead a trader pilot who kept returning to Jakku to see if her parents returned, that would have alleviated the skeptism. All I'm saying Lando and Han are not fair comparisons. We don't need in depth analysis of all new characters introduced, as it should be easy for us to imagine freighter pilots as our truckers, train engineers, or air mail ect... the question arises with a central character who is given a profession that seems incompatible with the skill set possessed. Most things require time and training, age is a natural obstacle to those skills in most cases. They can have them, but there should probably be an in story reasoning for them.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 13, 2018 ---

Sorry, didn't realize you addressed the post by @Darth Wardawg. I really enjoyed parts of that post while I could see other aspects of it being problematic. I didn't mean to wander into a war zone lol.

 

There are actually two lines in TFA stating Rey is a pilot: In Jakku before boarding the Falcon (Finn: we need a pilot. Rey: we’ve got one!) and after both leave Jakku (Rey: I’ve flown ships before, but I’ve never left the planet!)