THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

No, Luke is like Darcy. He is the one who saves Leia and Rey’s remaining allies from Kylo and the FO, not Rey. Rey just helps her friends to escape lifting some rocks.

And yes, Elizabeth realises progressively, even before the event with Lydia, that she had really misjudged Darcy. And that realisation is pivotal indeed... for her, and for herself only and her growth... and even though she feels like a prized idiot, she is not defeated and is a bad ass to lady Catherine, who tries to bully her into refusing Darcy if he happens to ask her for marriage... But let’s not begrudge our heroines for having their empowered moment after making an ass of themselves, let it be spent lifting rocks to free some trapped friends or telling an old hag to mind her own business and take a hike.

Rey makes a huge mistake of judgement trusting Kylo, a mistake that isolates her (she is lost his force mate Ben Solo) and makes her feel defeated and hopeless (“How do we build a rebellion with just this?”) Her description of Luke’s peaceful purposeful death is also an allusion to what Luke did right and she didn’t.

And you still have not told me those very well realised set backs, defeats, altered relationships and failures Luke experiences during each of the OT films...

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2018 ---

But that’s not the way she sees it... Like Elizabeth, she feels responsible. We are shown this when she looks in dispair at the resistance ships from the supremacy screen and realises kylo has no intention to stop the bombing.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018 ---

That’s what she feels. It is a common reaction after you have made a huge mistake to feel guilty about anything wrong happening remotely connected with it. Elizabeth Bennet felt like that too. Nothing over-reaching about it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018 ---

The split saber: “How do we build the resistance from this?” The evocative power of symbolism.

 

Okay, and? Did anything I say contradict this point? I said Elizabeth ends up relying on Darcy for help, I never said it was something she's aware of. She and her family are literally pulled out of jeopardy because of Darcy's involvement. That still doesn't change my point that Elizabeth was in a self-made dilemma that she couldn't solve, and the plot made it so that Darcy had to come to her aid, in secret or not.

And that's not what happens to Rey. Her mistake isn't solved by someone else, her mistake doesn't even exist to be solved at all. She goes in to redeem Kylo to save the Resistance, and then saves the Resistance anyway without Kylo's help. The complete opposite of Elizabeth and Darcy.

For the upteenth and final time..it doesn't MATTER if the roles are vaguely similar to that of Pride & Prejudice, the stakes in TLJ are completely different because Rey never has to be enveloped by a mistake that's so drastic that it prevents her from accomplishing her goals without the absolutely necessary aid of someone else. Rey's goal was to save the Resistance, and that's what she ends up doing---there ARE no stakes because of the mistake she makes, whereas for Elizabeth her entire emotional livelihood through the stability of her family is on the line, and teetering on disgrace to their reputation, which is the equivalent of death by destitution in the 18th Century setting the story takes place. The two have entirely different stakes, because Rey has nothing to lose, and Elizabeth has everything to lose. Elizabeth doesn't solve the problem one scene later like Rey does, something you continue to refuse to acknowledge. I refuse to make this point again, and since you keep strawmanning my point with factors that do not even remotely relate to the argument I'm making, I will have to believe you either don't understand the point I'm making or are willingly mischaracterizing it to make up for the fact that you can't counter it.

And Rey's mistake doesn't "isolate" her. There's no evidence of that anywhere in the film, and she conveys no sense of defeat or hopelessness based exclusively on the mistake she made. She laments the situation of the Resistance, but the film doesn't inject any kind of self-doubt or personal blame on Rey's part. That's something you're injecting purely out of perception, not out of factual basis.

And I've already typed an entire paragraph about the setbacks Luke suffers in the OT, you just haven't countered with anything yet.

No, that's how you perceive how she feels. There's no evidence or outright semblance of anything resembling this anywhere in the film.

You're still overreaching, and haven't provided anything but blanket statements without proof or evidence.

That doesn't symbolize her failure in the slightest. She had a broken lightsaber, and Rian Johnson decided to use it to symbolize the weakened status of the Resistance at that current point in the film. It's reflecting on the situation of the heroes, not Rey herself.

At no point are we led to assume or provided with any tangible, in-film material to suggest that she in any way blames herself for what's happened. She doesn't say anything of the sort, and the film does not imply anything of the sort.

 

I read the book a long time ago and I do remember Scarlett been a very well written character. I do also remember, however, the book is horrendously racist...

 

How is the book racist?

 

Well, at least Elizabeth has a family who loves her... Rey hasn't. At the end of TLJ is subtly hinted she may have even lost the special friendship and bond she had with Finn after her failed venture with Luke and Kylo... There are stakes for Rey too. The Resistance and Finn is all she has, and having failed them, in the way she feels she has, might have very well made her lose hope.

And I have repeated i don't know how many times that Rey does not resolve the problem a scene later, LUKE does. You have decided to ignore that point.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2018 ---

I haven't seen it.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018 ---

I have already given evidence of how we are shown how she feels. "How are we going to build the resistance from this?"

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018 ---

One explanation is as valid as the other.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018 ---

Isn't she kinda mean with her black servants and marries someone in the Klan? I may be remembering this wrong, mind you...

 

I neither stated nor even remotely implied such a thing.

If you want to address what I actually said, I will be happy to discuss. However I cannot be respond to what "people act like."

 

The MF is not symmetrical (doesn't matter so much in space, but in atmosphere it would), is not sleek or aerodynamic in the least (again, no problem in space ect..), has its cockpit not just off center, but way off to one side, is jury rigged and modified like a 20 something's Honda civic with a minimum wage job. It's not that it's advanced, it's that it's crossed wired and old with make shift repairs, yet still has a good engine and the modifications work if you know how to manipulate them. It can even do some unexpected feats in the right hands. Yet it is a flawed ship that to any average consumer who's not mechanically savvy would avoid.

Maybe the cruiser she was headed for was tough to fly, but it was also preferable to her than the MF. Her words.

 

I literally just said that Elizabeth has something to lose, and Rey has almost nothing to lose. You stating that Elizabeth has a family where Rey doesn't only furthers my point, not weakens it. I have no idea what you're trying to prove by bringing that up. And moreover, that still doesn't defeat the point I made when I stated that unlike Rey who solves her own dilemma in the scene following her supposed "failure", Elizabeth is thrust into the kind of dilemma that she can't fix herself. You haven't done a thing to counter a single point I made.

And again, no, there's nothing in the film to suggest that she feels she's let Finn and the Resistance down in the aftermath of the battle on Crait. She comments on the state of the Resistance following the battle, and that's it. The story makes no attempt to make her appear that she blames herself for what happened.

Rey rides into save the Resistance with the Falcon, and takes out a good chunk of the TIE Squadron before they decimate the Resistance's Landspeeders. She did this (in a fashion that film shows her gleefully doing so, with barely any worry or effort) without ever being showcased in any kind of desperation. She's not shown to be in dire need of help from anyone...Luke turns up to help the rest of the Resistance, not Rey herself, who by the film's showcase had been handling things fine without breaking a sweat. This is only furthered later when Rey ends up lifting the rocks to ease the Resistance's escape. She doesn't even ask how the Resistance managed to survive until she got there, and at no point is shown to have even been aware of Luke until Leia mentions him being dead. We don't get any sense of relief from Rey or that Luke came at the nick of time to help her. Every action she takes on Crait, she takes in a sense of ease and without hindrance....setting out to fulfill her goal, which at one point predicated on Kylo's redemption, only to be solved by herself.

It is you who have decided to ignore all of these factors as you hastily clamber to re-interpret the factual events of the film to service this perception that Rey "suffered because of some crippling failure", despite that being present nowhere in the film, or how it presents Rey's progress throughout the last part of the film.

I'll type it again for your convenience.

One of the primary motivational factors that drives Luke to pursuing the Jedi Path, aside from the necessity to fight the Empire and answer the call to adventure, is his father. The subject of his father is something that we're shown on numerous occasions is something Luke puts a lot of emotional investment into. He's built an internal, idealistic image of his father to aspire to, cobbled together by the yarns of a nostalgic Ben Kenobi: hearing about the cunning warrior and Jedi Knight his father was fills Luke with a desire to know him, and provides the motivation to strive and be like his father. He continues to cite it as being the major reason for why he wants to follow the Jedi Path...to succeed his father. This is the main framework for Luke's psyche, the thing that emotionally drives him. In many ways, one could argue that Luke is psychologically trying to make up for growing up without a father by pursuing the Jedi Path---to essentially grow closer to his father in the only way he has left, to succeed him. And when his impulse and hotheadedness drives him to ignore his Masters' warnings and face Vader before he's ready, it's in this area where Luke ends up paying the price for his mistake. When Vader makes the paternal revelation, it completely and emotionally shatters Luke. The mental image of his father, the golden and pristine image he's aspired to, that's been the driving force to help him overcome every obstacle up till now, is nothing but a hollow lie. Everything he's known up till now has been tainted by the nightmarish reality of what he's been told---with the figure that's tortured his friends, and manipulated and physically abused him being his actual father. He doesn't just lose physically by this news, he loses psychologically. Lucas even describes Vader dismembering Luke as symbolism for castration in the Making of ESB, stating that Vader demolished Luke's manhood by severing his connection with the image of his father pre-established by years of personal aspiration. We see this setback enacted in the plot immediately---Luke isn't shown gallivanting in space heroics, whooping and laughing in gleeful confidence in the very next scene, like Rey is shown in TLJ. When we next see him following his rescue at Leia's hands, Luke is shown talking aloud to himself, feeling isolated from his friends with a soul-crushing truth that affects and wounds only him. He's emotionally stricken and traumatized, lost in his own horror as he utters: "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" He's in a state of shellshock that we as the audience not only see, but feel with him. It's something that mentally seizes him, and keeps him from the action while his friends around him lead a daring escape. Fast forward to ROTJ, where nearly a year has passed. We see a Jedi Knight version of Luke, engaging in heroics and confidently saving his friend Han, seemingly unaffected by the previous film's maladies. But it's when he's in isolation and visits Yoda that we see that the psychological wounds on him haven't healed. Even his confrontations with his teachers, Yoda and Ben, aren't without a sense of suspicion and hostility, now that he knows the truth that's been kept from him up till now. And here is where the setback from the previous film blossoms into a horrible ultimatum for Luke: to either let his friends die, or to sever all hopes of redeeming his father and kill him in accordance to his teachers' bidding. So now, Luke not only has been scarred by the revelations in the previous film, but he has to demolish any hopes of bringing back that gleaming, inspirational image of his father that he's fostered by redeeming Vader and potentially returning him to that state. It's a choice that's shown to gnaw at Luke throughout ROTJ, and becomes a psychological obstacle that obstructs him in the final confrontation of the film.

The OT explicitly makes this aspect of Luke's character vulnerable, and his other flaws of being impulsive and rash lead to Vader taking advantage of that vulnerability, and scarring him for it. This isn't some mere hindrance in passing, it's something that warps and obstructs Luke on a very personal level. He's not weakened physically or cut off from his Force abilities for it, but it's something that psychologically wounds him nonetheless....and almost drives him to the Dark Side, as ROTJ so blatantly shows. Luke's path is not a perfect or pristine one---he makes mistakes, and he's setback by those mistakes. If the Vader revelation had no real effect on him, then the choice to eliminate Vader would've been an easy one---and the consistently-shown hesitation in Luke throughout ROTJ wouldn't be prominent. But it does have an effect on him, and forces him to be enveloped by the horrible choice of choosing his friends or the salvation of his father.

Rey is not subject to anything like this. She's not shown to be in a state of vulnerability because of Kylo's revelation, as the very next scene shows her in a state of gleeful confidence, saving the Resistance regardless of what's just happened. Her investment in Kylo is not on the level of Luke's in Vader, because unlike with Luke, the films haven't built a strong enough basis for Kylo's redemption to have any believable or plausible emotional worth to her. The salvation of the Resistance isn't jeopardized by any conflict Rey undergoes or mistake she makes, because she avoids Kylo's advances with no trouble at all, and saves the Resistance in the very next scene (and before you unload another tangent of her "only saving a few people", understand that the Resistance being thinned down to a few people when she gets there is not because of any failure on her part, but because of the First Order thinning their numbers via a space chase that Rey had no participation in for the entirety of the film. Just thought I'd bring that up, before you again re-contextualize filmic events to bolster an aspect of Rey's character that doesn't exist).

To conclude: Luke is flawed, struggles because of those flaws, and is hindered significantly by obstacles created by those flaws. Rey is flawless, does not struggle whatsoever to reach her ultimate goals (that being the salvation of the Resistance), and isn't hindered once by anything that she herself does, by any objective fact or evidence existing within the film....outside of your own baseless perceptions, of course.

And I've already illuminated why that quote doesn't refer to Rey whatsoever. You can go back and read it in the very last line of my most recent response, because I'm not typing that again.

Not when that explanation is mischaracterized to suit a purpose that isn't stated or alluded to whatsoever by the actual film.

Scarlett isn't any meaner or more harsh to her slaves than anyone else in her status in the Antebellum South. Moreover, she haughtily and selfishly orders everyone who goes against her will---including her husband, and all of her sisters, who are all white. That's Scarlett being authoritarian and bratty, and it's something the other characters, from Rhett, to Ashley, to her own father consistently scolds her for doing. Her husband joins the Klan after he and Scarlett are married, and leads a raid on a shantytown without her knowledge. This is something Rhett and Ashley try to put a stop to, and nearly get arrested doing, for the sake of Scarlett and the other women.

Neither of these things makes the core narrative racist, or vilifies or validates racist attitudes. If there is any unequal treatment of whites and blacks in the story, that's strictly related to the setting and era, and not the morals or themes encouraged by the book.

 

Your post has been deleted so therefore I can't copy your exact phrase. I'm pretty sure your post made it seem like the falcon is a special ship that only handful of people is qualified to drive. That's at least how I read it at the time.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2018 ---

I'll buy most of that explanation but she seems to be mechanically savvy. She clearly knew the in and outs of the falcon. The falcon is a common ship in the SW universe so maybe she seen one of those in flight and has an idea how it flys. Maybe she doesn't like the way it flys so she wanted the other ship instead. I know thats a lot of speculation but we don't have much to go on. SW has never gone into specifics about flying. They never told us if flying is equivalent to us driving cars. They never mention about manuverability of ships other than agile, fast, etc. For all we know, the falcon could feel like flying a boeing 737 rather than a boeing 747.

What I don't buy is that Han, Chewie, lando, and maybe Luke are the only ones who capable of flying the falcon especially since its just a common freighter that has few modifications. I see several posts from people in various threads on this site act like the falcon is a advance ship that only handful of people can fly it.

 

But I did. I said she could not fix Kylo or the resistance or win the war. You just don’t accept that because you think that Rey lifting those rocks to save her friends from the wretched cave is the height of what anyone should expect from her character and that is not the truth...

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2018 ---

You just didn’t like that decision RJ made with her character at that moment. Perhaps you would have preferred for her to look downcast and be passive for the rest of the film, sporting a face of fate and circumstance... but that’s what Luke would have done, not Rey. It is crystal clear that Rey has stumbled into a problem she can’t resolve with Kylo and her disappointment for it is also crystal clear after killing snoke’s guards. Rey is destroyed looking at those monitors showing the resistance being annihilated and kylo going psycho on her. And the mention of her parents is not really a reveal as such but a stab in the back from Kylo, who adds salt to the would suggesting she can’t win because she is nothing. That is an injury to her soul but damn her for not be mopping about and still have some agency at the end of the film.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018 ---

But that would have been the kind of plodding, overkill dialogue of the prequels in which everyone sounds like a sanctimonious bore. Things were acted out, scenes were crafted to deliver a sense of loss and utter disappointment. Those clarifications you want would have been self conscious and pointless.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018 ---

Rey’s attachment to Han repeatedly shown and stated in TFA and TLJ, Rey’s emotional conversation with Kylo in the hut and Rey fighting Luke in Atch To in TLJ all show kylo’s redemption has a meaning and worth to her. Turning Kylo will not only save the resistance and make them win the war but also would validate Han’s death and also repare Luke’s mistake with Kylo in the Jedi hut. Kylo’s redemption is important to her at many levels.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018 ---

That is what happens but SHE doesn’t feel it that way, as she had hoped that her and Kylo would save all the ships going to Crait. (and we the audience, after Kylo kills Snoke are so surprise that for a moment consider she may succeed, and therefore understand her disappointment more for it).

And even though we see her reunited with Finn we know that she feels somewhat removed from him, as things have change and he has found a new friend in Rose.

And many of your observations about Luke are things that you have interpreted yourself or read about and are not in the film (which is perfectly ok btw). Like luke’s severed hand meaning lost of manhood about the death of the aspirational idea of a father. So please allow me making my own interpretations about Rey.

And Rey is not gallivanting after her losses. She just happens to be physically functional whether you like it or not, just like Luke was at the beginning of ROFJ when he started to flip around the place doing Jedi moves... It was RJ’s decision not to finish the story in a complete low with Rey’s character, undoubtedly in an attempt to both not to copy ESB and also to be consistent with Rey’s character, who is in essence more capable and pragmatic than Luke ever was.

 

In the time since Han had her stolen from him, it seems Rey had done some work on her at the very least. That doesn't mean she flew her, but she probably knew the ship to be cross wired and jury rigged and modified to the extreme, and the complications that could cause without being super familiar with her. That to me was explanation as to why and how she knew something about the MF that Han didn't, as she probably did some modifications during that time away from Han that Han had no way to know.

I don't buy that no one else can fly the MF either, but I could understand that to people unfamiliar with the ship, they can possibly blow components that could be detrimental to the ships operations. I think Rey may have known that without knowing what specifically. To me this has nothing with Rey being a MS, this is Rey being mechanically inclined and had done some work on the ship in the past. Whether she flew the ship or not, she'd know the ship was a mess of modifications that require other modifications on top of yet others and all had side effects of sorts.

 

You claim Rey couldn't save the Resistance without Kylo, and yet she does so anyway. You haven't countered anything.

If I wanted Rey to look downcast and be passive for the rest of the film, surely I would have said as much? Perhaps you should refrain from putting words and suggestions in my mouth that I haven't provided. The argument term for such an action is "strawmanning". Moreover, it is not "crystal clear" that Rey has stumbled into a problem she can't solve, because she solves the problem without Kylo's help. This is the issue with writing a story like this---one can't claim incredibly high stakes for the heroine that can only be remedied through the accomplishment of some act, when the stakes are overcome regardless, with ease and without sweat, by that same heroine a second later. That's how you cause the stakes to evaporate---it's the equivalent of all of the X-Wing pilots performing the Death Star Run in ANH dying off one by one, only for Leia to magically remember that it's possible to destroy the Death Star by pouring baking soda on it from space. It removes any and all tension when a potent solution completely renders the last hour or so of high stakes and dependency on another factor absolutely meaningless...and that's precisely what Rey's attempts to redeem Kylo are: a stakeless endeavor that's overruled by her ability to solve the problem anyway. The film at no point showcases that the Resistance would've been better off if Rey had succeeded in redeeming Kylo Ren, or showcases any regret or severe loss at her failure, then her failure is of no consequence. She saves everyone, and at no point does the film alluded that her success was unfulfilled or lesser because she failed to redeem Kylo Ren. The most it shows is Rey commenting on the state of the Resistance which, as I've exhaustively pointed out, was something created by the Space Chase and not Rey herself. And on top of that, despite your insistent claims, Rey is not shown to blame herself or take any personal responsibility by any evidemce that is in the film. I know you're desperately married to this idea, but until you provide actual proof besides "we know it's true" and "it's crystal clear", it's not factual in the slightest. It is head-canon.

Also, no one is condemning Rey for not moping about what happened. But if it's an important emotional obstacle like you claim, then maybe the film should've spent a little more time on Rey's emotional state following the battle. She doesn't have to be bawling her eyes out like a child, but you could easily have a line or two describing what she's going through...to provide an insight on her mental zone. That's far more tangible than all of the complete fictitious assumptions you provide in a desperate attempt to tack on drama to a character more two-dimensional than paper.

Having characters verbally react to things is not plodding dialogue. That's literally the foundation of films with organic characters, like Alien, (a movie you supposedly enjoy, despite it possessing a wealth of writing choices TLJ was too lazy to attempt) where 90% of the dialogue is characters reacting in a very believable way to their surrounding circumstances. Unlike Johnson, Ridley Scott didn't leave anything to the audience's assumption---he conveyed everything through the character's emotions and exchanges.

And nothing was acted out in TLJ to suggest anything that you've assumed. Not one part of the film suggests that Rey has personally failed, or that she blames herself for what happened.

I will repeat: Rey's investment in Kylo is not at the same level as Luke's was in Vader, because the films haven't built a strong enough basis for Kylo's redemption to have any believable or plausible emotional worth to her.

Rey has known Han Solo for all of 15 minutes. She's known Kylo for maybe 10, and in that time he's done things like probe her mind whilst strapped down in bondage, as well as slice open the spine of the only close friend she really has.

Also, at no point does the film suggest that Rey is trying to redeem Kylo to validate Han's death, or undo Luke's mistake. This is more head-canon.

WHAT is the evidence for this. What line of dialogue or implication explicitly states anything you've just written. Where in the film does the story explicitly screech everything to a halt, and showcase Rey's mountainous amount of self-blame for what happened?

And please don't use the broken lightsaber example, because I've already explained how that's not a valid example whatsoever, and only comments on the situation of the Resistance, not her feelings of failure.

No, we don't "know" anything, that's entirely down to your perception of the events of the film. The movie doesn't even vaguely suggest that Rey feels at all distant or replaced by Rose. This is fanfic-levels of interpretation without any factual basis anywhere in the film. You're coming up with more theories than half of the people who spent the last two years theorizing about Snoke.

Luke's hand being severed being a metaphor for losing his manhood is not interpretation on my part, it's something George Lucas has stated in the Making Of Empire Strikes Back. That's official information from the creator of the story, which is more than you've provided in 99% of your projections about TLJ.

Yes, physically functional to hoot and holler like a rodeo clown, seemingly unaffected by the tension of the situation she's in or the supposed emotional obstruction that occurred one scene prior. Did that happen with Luke in the very next scene following his emotional demolishing at Vader's hand? No. Kasdan, Kirschner, and Lucas opted to show Luke in a traumatized state, to give the audience an idea of the weight of what just happened....it was only a year later, when time had passed, where we see Luke engaging in Jedi heroics in ROTJ (something I highlighted extensively in my analysis on Luke, but you conveniently opted to ignore).

Rian didn't do the same with Rey, not because he wanted to differentiate from Luke, but because he has no idea how to write characters. Characters who suffer true hardship and emotional pain aren't shown to be in a state of peak confidence and gleeful care-freeness in such a short duration following said pain. Luke isn't gallivanting one scene after the Vader reveal, Scarlett isn't laughing or whooping one scene after finding Terra burnt to the ground and her mother dead, and Michael Corleone isn't shown partying and having a grand old time in the aftermath of finding out his brother is a treacherous snake who tried to have his family murdered. None of these instances were the writers "finishing the story in a complete low", as you claim, these are instances of the writers having the good sense to balance the tone of the story. The writers for each of these works knew how to lead their characters through stages of grief and shock, to properly illustrate the weight the events really had on them...and thus showed the restraint from shifting the tone too quickly. This is such a fundamental basic of storytelling, that it makes complete sense why someone as narratively-impaired as Rian Johnson would mess it up so catastrophically.

 

Rey and Chewbacca speak wookie, so why wasn't there any reservations on Chewies part for her to go to Kylo? Chewbacca knows Kylo better than her, but they share no dialogue. If Han made an impact on Rey. It didn't last long.
Finn is just like her as far as we know. The storm troopers are like her as far as we know, but she doesn't relate to their situation? One of these characters was willing to face his biggest fears in order to rescue her, but she wants to relate to Kylo? Rey faces no consequences for her actions when in reality she would have.

 

It was strawmanning indeed, I admit, and I apologise, but after all your hyperbole, rants and assumptions about my lack of ability or understanding of writing and storytelling during the course of our long conversation, I thought you might indulge me this slight ”expressive” trick at your expense.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2018 ---

That she feels responsible it is indeed an assumption, but that she feels disappointed, helpless and worthless when Kylo does not turn, it is shown in the film: Rey’s sad look at kylo’s from the monitors after the throne room fight. Her saying: “please don’t go this way”, her crying when kylo tells her she’s nothing and all the previous tirade. All of Daisy’s excellent acting in that scene gives us an insight on her mental state.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018 ---

I agree with you. Pertinent dialogue that shows and does not tell, that does not selfconsciously overstate a point that has been strongly suggested or can be inferred without been explained, is always welcome. Sometimes not to leave things for the audience to infer is insulting the audience’s intelligence... Exchanges with no words with good acting and good direction are can also be powerful when expressing emotion. You mentioned music before, so we agree on this more than you think. I just saw a very good film “Call me by your name” in which the romantic relationship between the characters is never discussed, but simply displayed on the screen with the good, the sordid, the embarrassing... and although it was at times fairly slow I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I’m not telling you that TLJ is always successful with the information it omitts, but Rey’s feelings of despair are not one of the things about which RJ was not clear enough.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2018 ---

To understand Rey’s investment in Kylo you need to go back to TFA. Rey is presented as a heroine with incredible physical capabilities but an inbuilt insecurity that results from being abandoned by her parents and her fear of leaving Jakku. She refuses the call to be a hero because of her fear and lack of self belief. She obviously cares about the resistance and the fight but she sees it as a thing that has to be resolve by others, adult figures, parent figures, even though it’s she who has been chosen by the force to resolve the state of the galaxy. Afterwards, even though in TFA she fights Kylo and wins that battle, in TLJ she only goes to Atch To to get Luke and bring him back to Leia, because she thinks he’s the resistance only hope. She then has no intention of getting training. That idea only comes to her during her conversation with Luke in the force tree. After experiencing Luke’s pessimism about what he has to offer and his refusal to engage in the fight Rey turns to Kylo as she now considers him “the resistance’s only hope,” because she is convinced she can only defeat the FO with someone more qualified and righeous than her by her side. This is probably the strongest reason for her wanting to turn Kylo.

It is fitting at the end that Rey, even after her disappointment and her brokenness, has finally accepted her role as a heroine who needs no one to guide her. She is herself the galaxy’s only hope, even though this mantle is not, and I predict will not, be an easy one to assume.

 

If you think there's any instance where I directed my hyperbole and uber-dramatic venting at you instead of the decisions made in the film, I'd appreciate it, because so far I haven't done that. I also don't recall making any kind of statements of your ability to understand writing, merely Rian Johnson's ability to write.

Further, you're more than welcome to use my tactics against me---"give as you receive", and all that. But I haven't strawmanned any of your points, like you have to mine. And in case you think you haven't, your exact statement is "Perhaps you would've liked Rey to be passive and mopey".

If I challenge your perception of the film, the effective response is to provide counter-evidence from the film itself. That's far more effectual than mischaracterizing things that I've said.

So you admit that her feeling responsible is 100% assumption on your part. But that's the crux of your entire argument, that this feeling of responsibility is an emotional obstacle that grants Rey a substantial failure, subverting all accusations of her being flawless. We're not talking about what you assume, we're talking about what's objectively in the film. Your assumptions are not a part of that.

Moreover, the "helplessness and disappointment" at being unable to turn Kylo is not only massively unwarranted (especially considering her main goal, according to you, is to use Kylo as a tool against the First Order, thus making any further emotional investment wildly illogical), but it's something that doesn't really last. Yeah, Daisey Ridley acts all weepy and emotional in that scene, that's nice...but so what? It doesn't last. The very next scene we see her in, she's completely recovered, laughing and wooping as she torches TIE Fighters with ease. So the failure clearly doesn't have enough of an impact on her as a character or her trajectory of success, and if it does, the film did a poor job of communicating the wound of that personal failure throughout the remainder of the story. Daisy's acting in one scene does not render the "failure" of the scene effective in its writing implementation...that's not how writing works. To make a failure substantial, it has to be shown as something that's enduring and lasting, not laughed off in the very next scene.

Mark Hamill's performance during the Vader reveal was really good, but it wouldn't have meant squat if he was laughing and being carefree on the Falcon with Leia in the very next scene. This is such a basic aspect of character writing, to make a failure have lasting impact...and Rey's failure doesn't have that to any degree, and that's precisely why it remains an insubstantial addition tacked onto her otherwise under-written and uber-perfect shell of a character.

When highlighting a major focus of your character's failure, you need to make that element distinct from everything else going on in the scene. And when you have the scenes between Rey's "failure" and the end of the film littered with scenes of her joyfully gallivanting against the First Order, and confidently lifting rocks, only to end her participation of the story with a mild comment about the Resistance's status and the meaning of Luke's death, you need to spend a special moment focusing on that character's failure amidst all these other successes. TLJ does not do this. In the Millenium Falcon, there isn't any kind of allusion, musical cue, dialogue from characters around her, or acting on her part that implies she's undergoing some kind of crippling, personal failure. And with how distant and unreferenced her earlier scene with Kylo is at this stage of the film, the story is objectively stating to the audience that whatever failures she endured were not substantial or impactful enough to affect anything that happened for the duration of the film. The story outright ignores her "failure" with Kylo, and none of the non-verbal indicators you suggest show up anywhere near the film's ending.

Rey's feelings of despair regarding her personal struggles are something that showed up once, and only once, in the scene where Daisy Ridley emotes in the Kylo Ren scene. It never comes back again, and is not shown to be any kind of substantial failure that hinders her progress as a character or heroine in any way by the film's own following outcome of events.

Nothing you have just stated in any way justifies or validates your earlier point about Rey's motivation for saving Kylo having anything to do with doing it for Luke or Han's sake. You just recited a bunch of plot-relevant information for no reason whatsoever.

Rey redeems Kylo for her own reasons, and potentially for the motive to save the Resistance as you've stated (despite there being no strong basis for this), and for no other stated reason. There isn't one line of dialogue or instance of in-film implication where it suggests that she's doing it for the sake of Luke or Han. That's a complete fabrication with no factual basis whatsoever.

 

Lucas is not immune to make interpretations of his own writing a posteriori, and I don't criticise him for doing so, analysing his own creations and arriving at this conclusions. Symbolism is deeply instinctual and works in mysterious ways.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2018 ---

Well, on one occasion you recommended me to read more about how writing and storytelling works, what I found rather presumptive, but let’s forget about that. You certainly have not make comments like that lately and I accept that you might not have said those words back then in a condescending manner.

 

I think you hit on what I find troublesome about TLJ especially, but even about TFA. It is the necessity of doing the "head cannon" thing to make the film work. For example, I love the idea of a war torn, bitter crusty old hero. But WHY is Luke like this now? The only true excuse given is he was upset about Kylo turning to the dark side, but that doesn't work for me. Leia blames "Snoke" and Luke, if I remember correctly, basically says Kylo was too far gone for him to fix the problem. So then it isn't his fault, so why does he exile himself? Maybe I'm different, but the excuse RJ provides is lame as heck.

The same holds true for the question about Rey and her supposed attachment to Kylo. As you mention, she has known him for all of 10 minutes and she is supposedly invested in this emotionally? She's supposedly invested in Han, but again, where was the mourning? Rian spent what, 30 minutes on a side plot that goes no where, but couldn't give us a moment or three of mourning for Han Solo and a month or three showing Rey upset that she screwed up on the Supremacy?

It is like you've said earlier, too much time/effort is spent on making these films go go go (except TLJ) and not enough time/effort in developing the plot and character motivations.

 

In my post I was giving an in character explanation of why Rey feels the need to redeem Kylo. She wants to save the resistance and it is in her nature to desire to find someone other than herself to do so (even though the force called to her personally to resolve the fight). Rey desiring Kylo’s redemption for Han and for Luke are also in character, as she has grown up with no parental love and appreciates and values the love both men had for Kylo/Ben.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2018 ---

But I admitted I did! Why would I backtrack? Come on, there was no need for that comment

 

The problem I have with that, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, is that I don't see any of that in the film. I don't know what she wants, based on what I have seen/heard. Maybe I didn't pay enough attention to it. But from what she has said, and from what I've seen, I'm not sure why she has this need to redeem Kylo.

Having seen Looper this weekend I just feel like Rian Johnson was in over his head, IN THIS INSTANCE. He is a fine director, and based on that film, he can write well. However, in this instance I would argue he didn't write very well. It happens. Not every writer/director is going to hit a home run every time they are at bat.

I'm going to probably not visit this thread anymore, as I think I've probably said my peace when it comes to this film. Or maybe it would be better to say I'm going to try and avoid it.

 

I never said it was a special ship that only a handful of people are qualified to drive. What I am, however, saying is that it is a ship that requires a pilot and a co-pilot to fly, not to mention the silliness of having an dirt-poor scavenger fly it even better than anything Han Solo himself ever did.

Her abilities flying the Falcon are the textbook definition of a Mary Sue.