THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I liked the song titled "The Scavenger" in The Force Awakens. I just looked at both soundtracks in iTunes and that is the only song I've clicked as "Love."

 

That's Rey's theme I think, or at least it's part of it... Jedi Steps is a very nice one too.

 

If that really is a flaw the film wants to sell for Rey, it has done a lousy job of it, considering that she hasn’t suffered any massive setbacks or dire consequences as a result of trying to do everything herself. Especially given how her winning streak remains unbroken two movies in. If anything, the films consistently prove that she can do everything herself, and suffer no consequences or reprimanding for attempting to do it all single-handedly.

If anyone is depicted as flawed because of over-confidence or overly self-reliant, it’s Poe Dameron. TLJ in particular goes to great lengths to reprimand and scold him for taking on tasks single-handedly and with boundless confidence, punishing and casting a negative light on his actions. It’s not done well, but at least there’s evidence of the film’s attempt to do so.

Such evidence does not exist for Rey’s character at all. Her path is paved by boundless success.

If you remember, this entire conversation kickstarted with trying to claim that Rey was a flawed character who wasn’t perfect, and did undergo struggles in the film. You tried to use the broken lightsaber as proof of her failure with Kylo Ren, that it was some kind of emotionally-crippling moment for her.

And I’ve already stated how the broken lightsaber doesn’t symbolize anything of the sort, especially when coupled with her off-hand comment on the wrecked state of the Resistance. The film itself literally contradicts with your personal assessment of what this image symbolizes.

All you’ve given me is a wealth of personal assumptions that justify why you like the film, not how the film is objectively good. There hasn’t been a point you’ve made or a thing you’ve stated that’s backed by anything factual in the films. Every single point you’ve argued in favor of Kylo Ren’s conflict and Rey’s “struggle” have been instances of you interpreting things that aren’t stated or implied by any of the ST films.

You haven’t provided tangible evidence in favor of this film’s actual merits whatsoever.

The latter three things have absolutely nothing to do with our discussion, and are aspects to do with money and resources, not writing quality. Massive corporations like Disney, Warner Bros, and Sony can shower films with money…but that doesn’t contribute an ounce to improving or degrading the quality of a film’s writing, which is the only thing we’re discussing.

And, no: the ST films have stale one-note characters, laughably-bad and underwritten stories, and a structure more juvenile and amateurish than a Troma film.

The story, isolated from the mountain of corporate resources and pretty special effects, is an objective instance of poorly-written work, that you just happen to like. That’s the only conclusion your long list of interpretations have accomplished via our conversation.

You’ve things how you’ve interpreted, not how they exist in the actual films, which is the only thing of relevance when discussing a film’s objective merit.

And no, the financial or critical success of a film says nothing about its objective merits. Avatar, Twilight, Transformers, Spectre, Prometheus, A Quiet Place, and The Dark Knight Rises are all films that did extremely well financially and were critically well-received on release, and still managed to be some of the most prominent examples of poorly-written stories, which is why they’ve been hacked to shreds in the subsequent time after their release, in spite of the hordes of people who still like those films.

TLJ’s success financially or critically on release do nothing to alleviate it of its mountain of objective writing problems, all of which I’ve illustrated and you haven’t managed to counter with tangible evidence.

I never claimed to hold any kind of answers or be any sort of authority. Arguing the objective qualities of a work of fiction is the same as assessing the grade of an assignment: it either passes or fails, regardless of what your or I think of it.

And TLJ fails on nearly every level of writing merit, regardless of what you or I feel about the film. I could love TLJ, and still be willing to concede all of its objective flaws in its writing.

That’s what being objective is. It has nothing to do with assuming authority on a subject or claiming to have all the answers. I literally have no idea what you’re talking about.

Every time I’ve assessed TLJ’s failings in this conversation, I’ve brought up countless other films to measure its flaws against: films that try to accomplish the same kind of drama and organic characterizations that TLJ attempts, like Gone With the Wind, The Godfather, Alien and the previous Star Wars films. I’ve detailed exhaustively how the ST films do not work to earn the drama and characterizations that these films succeed at, instead opting to have the scenes before earning the drama. And I describe elements that other films possess that TLJ does not, I use factual evidence from the films, not interpretation.


And what do you do? You compare TLJ’s dynamic to Pride & Prejudice, claiming parallels and equal proficiency between both works, despite the fact that Pride & Prejudice works for its drama, and TLJ doesn’t. You don’t take the conversation anywhere near that, because you don’t believe TLJ suffers in that regard. And yet if Pride & Prejudice attempted the same hasty, scene-before-earning approach that TLJ takes, Pride & Prejudice would certainly suffer as a story in every regard. You will not admit this, because you don’t apply the same standard to both works: you’ve sacrificed objectivity and have chosen a unique standard to assess the merits of TLJ, simply because you happen to like the film. And the defenses you use for TLJ stem largely, by your own admission, from personal interpretation of the film’s events, not objective evidence that exists within the film.

You’re the only person here that is changing their standards when approaching TLJ. The same standards in which you praise Pride & Prejudice, you abandon when describing the merits of TLJ. You have been the less objective out of the two of us, and adopt different standards for the things you happen to enjoy.

Not important to me. That’s not what we’re discussing here.

World-building has been a staple of Star Wars the entire time it has existed. It existed in the OT, and in the PT, to varying levels…but it still existed. It was something endemic to the series, and it stopped existing the moment the ST came along.

This is an objective step down from the standard the previous films set, and has more to do with the lack of consistency on behalf of the new directors than anyone’s personal preference.

Whether or not it matters to you or me is irrelevant—it is an objective aspect of Star Wars that the filmmakers failed to deliver.

Our conversation was never about opinions, yours or mine. It was only ever about the objective merit in the films. What you or I personally value has no relevance in that discussion.

I value a lot of elements in the PT, but that would have absolutely no bearing on discussing their merits as films. If you were to ask me to be objective about the writing quality in the PT, I would happily be able to put my personal bias aside and critique the wealth of poor writing plaguing those films.

Our conversation was only ever about the merits of the ST as films, and you’ve brought personal interpretations and aspects you happen to like, regardless of the competency in their execution or narrative relevance, in order to defend the film.

Then I think you might’ve missed the point of this conversation a short time into the discussion, and I mean this in a sincere way, without condescension or spite. The fact that I dislike this film as a member of the audience has nothing to do with its objectively poor writing, weak script, underwritten characters, or anything else that plagues this film, that you took it upon yourself to defend. When doing so, it’s necessary to rely on factual information and not things you happen to value or interpret from the movie. And that absolutely is a discussion of right or wrong, because factual aspects of a film either exist, or they don’t.

Our takes or perceptions on the film are not valid components to a conversation about its objective merits.

I, for one, always enjoy discussing this film’s objective failings, because I feel that it allows for the most engaging interaction I have with Star Wars these days. The movies, comics, novels and games are so lukewarm and poorly-made, that these heated or passionate discussions about Star Wars seem to be the only thing of worth these days (or at least, since Star Wars Rebels ended).

But I do agree that we seem to be running in circles at this point, and that we aren’t progressing the conversation in any new direction. I also noticed that on my most recent post, I had something edited my a moderator claiming I was being condescending or irksome. I’m not sure what it was, but if you think there’s anything I’ve said that was out of line or an attack on character rather than argument, then let me be the first to apologize. It’s never my intention to come across that way in any of my posts, and I strive hard to make my points as concise, on-topic, and in-line as possible, hyperbole and theatrics aside.

Regardless, I hope some level of understanding was reached, and as always, thank you for taking the time to contribute to our conversation, as it was a pleasure engaging with you.

I think this says a lot more about the direction of the music itself, rather than Williams’ output of quality. Remember, that John Williams was composing music for other films other than the PT during the 2000’s, and very little of it is memorable. I think this has to do with the kind of direction Williams is given—because if he isn’t given a large amount of creative input or direction, he kind of phones his scores in.

For example: when Lucas was making the OT and the PT, a tactic he’d use to accomplish certain musical themes was to present Williams with pieces of classical music he wanted to emulate. Lucas is a big fan of classical orchestra, and in behind the scenes accounts, there’s mentions of him playing a certain musical piece for Williams and asking for something similar. I get the impression that neither Abrams nor Williams were enthusiastic enough about the music to have this kind of hands-on approach, and probably just left it all to Williams. Which might go a long way in explaining why the music in the ST is either recycled from the OT or unmemorable in isolation….something you certainly can’t say about the ST score.

 

I had forgotten about the quotes from the 70's and 80's saying George wrote to music and talked with Williams about what he wanted, thought, etc. I do remember JJ mentioning he was awed to be in the room with John when they started recording, making it sound like they didn't really talk about it in much depth before that. So this makes total sense now.

 

Now who is wildly interpreting what they read? I never said the proficiency of TFA or TLJ equals that of Pride and Prejudice! Please let’s be honest about the claims the other makes... if that’s all you got from what I tried to explain with my comparison between Rey and Elizabeth Bennet, I understand now why you are so very set in your ways...

I was not talking about opinions, but points of view. It is glaringly obvious that our definition of good writing does not aline, and that, for example, for me inciting the curiosity and engagement of the audience is paramount whereas you seem to be more interested in following a writer’s formula to the letter. Neither position is an opinion, but a different perspective.

You see, you don’t get to decide what the point of this conversation is. I may be engaging in it and you may think it serves a purpose, but please do not assume you know my take on it, what I’m looking for in it, and the purpose it serves for me or for anyone out there brave enough to read through all our very long posts... I fear that at times you are under the illusion you have more control over what you project than you really have.

But you see this you are saying here is completely untrue. I have given many factual examples from the movie that display good character development, that you dismiss or ignore very cavalierly because you’re not interested in dwelling on what is good and competent in the ST... If I say a piece of dialogue reveals something, you say dialogue is not enough... if I say the way something was acted to reveal something, you say it’s not effective enough... if I say a scene is set up to reveal something, you say I’m reading too much into it and the film is weak because of that... You keep saying that I keep making excuses because I like the film, but what it is becoming clearer and clearer is that it is you who keeps trying to find fault with the film by comparing it with a bunch of random films you like, and that would be ok were it not for the fact that you are trying to set the parameters at your convenience and sell all you say as objectivity. Sorry, but I’m not falling for it.

When you described Luke’s arc, I realised you are infinitely more benevolent with the in dialogue/acting/cinematic way in which Luke evolves, than you ever are with the way Rey’s development is presented, even though the same techniques were used. This speaks volumes.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 21, 2018 ---

Likeways. Take care.

 

I don't know how many people here know who Crispin Freeman is, but he's a prominent voice actor in both anime and video games, probably best known for playing the role of Alucard in the phenomenal Hellsing Ultimate series. The guy is a massive Tolkienite and fan of various mythologies, and because he articulates his opinions on storytelling really well, he's not only asked to weigh in on the stories he dubs for, but on media he has passion for, such as Star Wars.

Here are his thoughts on TLJ.

 

I get your point and I agree. But... I love Rocky V. I always did.
It subverted the tropes of that serie but in service of the story.
And Rocky is still Rocky.

 

So between the two did TLJ or Star Trek Discovery push away more fans? I am serious wondering about this tonight I watched the TLJ an thought it was ok, there a plenty of things I did and didn't like but Discovery I made trough 2-3 episodes a completely walked away from it. I haven't had any desire to give another try either. I am hopeful for the new show with Picard but it is real just TNG part 2. With TLJ there are so many ways for EPIX to go which if hard pressed can bring some life back to TLJ or kill the ST completely. So being a general scifi guy things like Altered Carbon give me hope. Soo what do you think. @Darth_Nobunaga I definitely can see a lot more to this thread after reading yours and couple others opinions. I do see a little bashing here and there but I spent a lot more time reading through what is getting said. I thank you good sir.

 

I actually watched each STD episode. (Yes I thought about changing the abbreviation, but decided not) I found the series to be pretty good. The actors are good. I know they are trying real hard to be totally inclusive of societal lifestyles that aren’t understood. That may be what is causing many people to not watch it. I am looking forward to seeing season 2. I’m not sure which has pushed away more. One thing that may be a deterrent is the fact you have to pay to see it on all access. But I think the SW fans are more vocal, so it’s possible TLJ has pushed away more fans.

 

Actually old Star Trek shows are all but space journeys. All the galaxy has human problems, every alien finally make it to the human way and it's completely focused on late XXth century America.

Humans Uber Alles would have been a better title than Star Trek.

 

Fortunately we live in an age where we can get our sci-fi fix in many different ways. As much as I've enjoyed SW throughout the years, it's far from the only fantasy or sci-fi option out there, so even when we find it comes up short, we can always go elsewhere and that doesn't have to necessarily mean we abandon everything SW moving forward. Just get your fix elsewhere and keep on eye on SW until it produces something you like. There are too many possibilities to just give up on this product.

As for STD, the rated mature to many fans and the need to subscribe and pay to get the show has been a pretty big turn off to many. It's not that trekkies are prudes, many of them enjoy GoT just fine, it just doesn't feel like Star Trek and some of the mature scenes feel forced, while as GoT it feels natural to the story being told. The redesign of the Klingongs without an explanation, there were ways to have this and still keep the fans, but they ignored those options and now are losing fans. The difference with Star Trek is that every series is in a way it's own entity, so if you don't like one, you may like another. So in a way it'll be easier to bounce back as most trekkies will give the next series a shot, they just lost them for this one.

SW is different in that respect. Things flowed and continued without the need for a reboot. For some, and we'll see how IX does here, but moving forward if they see they lost more fans than initially anticipated, they may have to look into doing a reboot, which for SW is unheard of. I think there's a certain amount of confusion as to the cause of the Solo fail and if IX fails to meet expectations, there will be spins on that too. If the problem with SW today is indeed TLJ and the ST as a whole, it will take some time to figure that out for sure. It's also important to not that even if it's part of the problem, they could very well be able to forge on without the fans they've lost and hope some eventually come back on their own.

 

I have to say I actually like STD, but the Klingon redesign was a problem for me. I think one of the most skillful and thoughtful retcons ever undertaken was ST as a franchise explaining away the difference between the smooth headed Klingons and the Klingons of the movies. And this redesign completely undoes that with no explanation and that is bad; especially since they do still incorporate legacy characters and metadata.

I think there is more latitude to make hard pivots in storylines in ST than in SW because ST has been rebooted more times and they have a more expanded story (lot's of different leads and sub stories). With so much more latitude already I don't think I'll ever understand why they chose to change the Klingons in the way they did. Overall though I think this new series is going to be interesting and I will find a way to watch (even though I am NOT a fan of it being on Access)

 

I love it! He makes many great points. One that I really like is the complaints about Holdo. She definitely IS the worst commanding officer ever. I said it myself, and I'm happy to see he says the same thing, why doesn't she confide in someone that she is worried there is a spy. THAT would have made her actions logical. Instead, she keeps the "plan" to herself, which then forces Poe and others into doing what they did. That THEN leads to the FO being tipped off and the Resistance getting decimated. Total failure. Good job Holdo!

Gonna go put on the Clone Wars and get my Star Wars fix through something excellent.

 

Well, months have passed...passion for star wars still gone after TLJ. It really broke the SW spirit.

On a positive note x-mas left room for gifts that weren’t SW inspired, and it has opened my eyes for other toy series that my son will enjoy

 

Same here.

It's gone.

 

I hate the thought of giving up n SW but if they don’t pretty much undo TLJ in IX, I’m done watching new SW. I have zero intention of going to a theatres to see any RJ trilogy. I’ll wait for HBO to get it.

 

Thanks for this. Crispin Freeman articulates in a nutshell my main grievance with TLJ; that Rian Johnson's writing ignores logical behaviour, reason, & the legacy of previously established character traits in order to indulge himself in telling a story of his own fancy. Choosing to do this with a single episode of a much-loved, ongoing saga is - to me - unbelievably short-sighted & self absorbed.

 

Well, according to Rian, no legitimate criticism of his movie even exists, even when it's valid and consistent with the rules of storytelling.

 

Just after getting done with the US elections in 2017, there were a high meeting in Kremlin where Putin said : Well, we got what we wanted with the president, let's focus on the next important thing : get those rotten tomatoes ratings of the last jedi down ! That's an order.

 

Oh, really? "No legitimate criticism?" Wow! What exactly did he say?