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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

?

Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    173 vote(s)
    55.3%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    137 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    187 vote(s)
    59.7%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    165 vote(s)
    52.7%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    117 vote(s)
    37.4%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    111 vote(s)
    35.5%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    161 vote(s)
    51.4%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    202 vote(s)
    64.5%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    135 vote(s)
    43.1%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    209 vote(s)
    66.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    xD @Darth_Nobunaga this were his exact words? Do you have a youtube link, anything?
     
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  2. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel General

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    Only problem is she clearly shared it with others on the bridge. After all they were following orders and fueling the transports. She wasnt doing it herself. Who she didnt share it with was Poe. You know the guy who just got demoted, didnt follow orders, and thought he was going to be the new acting commander.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 27, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2018 ---
    I think the most important thing to take out of this. Is dont try to make others hate or love TLJ. Also dont use the word objective when you cant be objective. You should be saying subjective.

     
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  3. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    @1:03

    Not exact words. "Fair" criticism is what he said.

    Is there any definitive proof that she told anyone about the plan? Just because the other Resistance members are following orders doesn't mean they've been informed on the plan. Not to mention that Poe isn't alone in his distrust in Holdo's authority---multiple other Resistance members join him in his mutiny. At that point, there's almost no reason not to start sharing the plan with at least the people besides Poe that are about to mutiny, if nothing else to preserve unity and calmness to the situation.

    Keep in mind, this is the perspective I hear from people who are highly-critical of Holdo and her plan. I myself wasn't particularly invested in this part of the film either way, but I'm still curious if there's a definitive counterargument provided by the film against this.
     
    #5603 Darth_Nobunaga, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
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  4. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel General

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    Ok I guess you got me. They dont show her telling the people on the bridge what to do, they are just doing it.

    You have 3 scenes with Holdo and Poe.

    Scene 1 he expects to be named interim leader (watch his body language) and gets in her face mansplains to her and demands her plan even before she likely has the plan thought out. She tells him to man his post and wait until he is given his orders. This shortly after he is publicly demoted. The proper thing for him to do would have been to introduce himself to her and say "I am ready for anything you need me to do".
    Scene 2 he barges into bridge and discovers the plan as he sees on large screen(s) that the transport ships are being fueled up. He explodes. She kicks him off bridge after she is called a traitor.
    Scene 3 the mutiny.
     
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  5. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Also, correct me if I'm wrong---as I don't quite remember at the moment---but I vaguely remember shots of Billie Lourd's character repeatedly looking at Holdo during these scenes, with a visible sense of anxiety and bewilderment, like she's beginning to scrutinize Holdo as well. I could be wrong, but that would certainly lend itself to why everyone's so ready to take part in Poe's mutiny.

    Another point a lot of people argue is that Holdo, at least nowhere explicitly in the film, promotes anyone in Poe's place. You'd think in a space chase where Rebel Ships are being decimated by the hour, it would be sensible to enlist a replacement Fleet Commander to discuss strategy with. Basically the point is that it probably would've been more assuring to the audience that other people besides Holdo knew the plan. It didn't have to be Poe, but it could've easily been granted to someone more qualified or suitable than him.

    Again, my brain doesn't really register the Space Chase sub-plot in my priority of problems with this film. Most of mine have to do with Kylo Ren.
     
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  6. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Sensitive

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    It would be to promote somebody in Ackbar's place. Poe was commander of the starfighter fleet. Leia was the real Fleet Commander - she was more in charge than the calamari was. There was no 'Fleet Commander' unless it was Leia, Ackbar would be the one you're looking to 'replace', but he was still only the Captain of the Raddus rather than some sort of 'Fleet Commander'.

    This is why the whole conversation regarding Poe is silly. He was demoted and remember....he wasn't replaced, he just lost a bit of authority. He goes right back to Leia and asks to blow stuff up without going to another commanding officer. Therefore, this conversation is silly because the command structure of the Resistance was clearly amorphous and fluid when it came to the higher ups. The only thing they kept to was "Battle of Chiron" Holdo (seems like she was some sort of Fleet Commander in her own right).
     
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  7. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    I mean, the whole "demotion" thing is kind of irrelevant when you realize that Poe's function as a pilot spearheading a squadron is pretty useless in a space chase where capital ships are involved. It didn't bother me as much as it bothers a lot of people.

    Considering the Fighter Squadron didn't see anymore action for most of the movie after the opening, I don't think it really matters who the Squadron Leader is.
     
  8. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel General

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    Billie Lourd is not involved in the main scene where Poe gets up mansplains and demands the plan. I will have to watch again to see if she is involved in the 2nd scene. No Holdo doesn't start promoting anyone, but since she likely doesn't think fighting their way out of the situation is a good plan at all she wouldn't be looking for a fighter pilot for strategy, and his 1st impression was not good so I don't think she would chase after him.

    I also think people have the wrong idea. This isnt a Space Chase it is a siege. Just a siege in space where the attackers are just waiting out the group being attacked until they run out of supplies. No chasing is going on. Just being patient and waiting.
     
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  9. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    What always made me confused about the 'new' Poe in TLJ is that the TFA Opening Crawl specifically says that Leia sent her most 'daring' pilot to Jakku. Yet, that is the same exact reason why he is demoted in TLJ? Maybe Rian Johnson should have read the TFA opening crawl.....
     
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  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I seem to remember Lourd's character undermining Holdo as well. I think RJ may have overdone his desire to make Holdo seem like a double agent or untrustworthy leader to spin it later and "fool" the audience. If Holdo was telling others the plan, RJ should have shown that and Lourd's character would have been the obvious choice to have Holdo share with. Speaking to my experience, the fact RJ chose to not show Holdo sharing the plan with anyone, especially others she could have and probably should have trusted, led me to believe as a viewer that she hadn't shared with anyone. Now maybe she did, but that was not depicted in the movie in any way. If anything it was deliberately left out to cause the audience to naturally distrust her for his turn about at the end.

    I never got the sense that Poe wanted command. His asking Holdo about the plan did seem like Poe wanting to help. I don't think he expected a fully formed plan, but wanted to help formulate it, being a leader and likely knowing the crew better than Holdo did (it didn't seem that many people knew her personally). New to the show, if she had nothing, at this point it's natural to assume she'd take suggestions. If she has something this is where as leadership you go over the details with your officers. He was rushed in asking, but considering the circumstances, I think that could be expected. Her dressing him down and biting remarks seemed unnecessary and petty at this point, dismissing of someone who could better tap into the crew. The crew just lost a respected leader and legend, nerves were frayed, adding to that didn't seem leader like to me.

    I'm really baffled about people's defense of Holdo. I really just don't get it. To me it's obvious that she was meant to lead the viewers astray. We were supposed to dislike her, or at least not trust her. I think it could have worked better in a movie centered around Poe and Holdo, but in the few scenes we get with them, it seems to me there just wasn't enough time to come to sympathize with the newly introduced Holdo. The about face seemed rushed and contrived, at least to me. It's like RJ wanted to tell us not to judge someone by the color of their hair, or by their clothes, or by their gender. In the end to make us aware of our prejudice. The problem with that, if that was his intent, I would have distrusted any man who behaved like Holdo, the way he chewed out a subordinate leader in a time of crisis in the way Holdo did. The clothes didn't overly matter, I assumed she was taken by surprise and rushed to action. The hair doesn't matter in sci-fi, as there would be all sorts of cultures in an entire galaxy. Her gender doesn't matter in a galaxy where there are probably more than two and different species have different gender roles. So if indeed that was kind of sort of the point, it seems strange to me. I just don't get the point of that whole interaction, if RJ had some deeper meaning or if it was just fluff to fill some space and have Poe involved in something contrived to show growth, which doesn't quite work for me due to her behavior.

    So yeah, for me it's her behavior that's in question, not anything else. If it works for others, I'm happy for them, but for me that whole story is just confusing and doesn't seem well thought out. He goes back and forth trying to imply things to different extremes, it lacks nuance and a delicate touch and loses its implication or his desired effect for me.
     
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  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel General

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    In TFA he followed orders in TLJ he didnt.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2018 ---
    Holdo is a military leader and a just demoted pilot comes up to her and mansplains the situation to her. That is the issue with Poe and she treated him like a military leader would. She put him in his place. He should have introduced and said "I will do anything to help". He goes up to the person who just now was put in charge and demands to know the plan. When in a military organization would that ever be appropriate?

    Here is the exact dialogue:
    POE: Vice Admiral, Commander Dameron. With our current fuel consumption there's a very limited amount of time that we can stay out of range of those star destroyers.

    HOLDO: Very kind of you to make me aware..

    POE: We need to shake them, before we can find a new base, so, what's our plan?

    Notice the very 1st thing he does he tells her what she/all they already know. That is the mansplain and she reacts accordingly.

    Then he tells her what the plan must do before he demands the plan. He says we need to shake them and then they can find a new base. If she had already known what her plan was, we dont know if she did at this point, does she get into an argument with him over his expectations that they must shake them and then find a new base? In front of the rest of the crew?

    As for his expectation watch when the announcement is made that Admiral Ackbar was killed and Leia was incapacitated is made. Poe sits up ready to take control when the announcement of who the temporarily leader is. Then slouches when he isnt the pick.
     
    #5611 KeithF1138, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  12. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    The first part is pretty obvious, but he has no idea how aware she is of the situation, or if those around her were competent, considering he never met her in such a small resistance fleet. Being offended is often times a choice, it could have just as easily been taken as a report to make sure she's up to speed from the next highest ranking officer on that ship, considering this has all been done unconventionally and unexpectedly. She instead decides to be somewhat condescending, to which I don't particularly care though her reaction does seem self defeating.

    Poe's suggestion to lose the Imperial fleet seems logical to me. No point in finding a base with a fleet breathing down your neck. Again, she chooses to take offense, and instead of dealing with the real issue, the Imperials, she decides to deal with Poe who's only trying to help. Look at how well her plan worked out with the Fleet being aware of their going to the base on Crait? Without both Luke and Rey they would have all perished, two factors that Holdo could not have factored into any of her plans. Maybe she should have listened to Poe after all. Or maybe she had already determined that was impossible by her estimation, but maybe he could have conceived of a superior plan, given a chance. Seems to me like she was too self absorbed to consider that and instead dismissed someone she felt threatened by.

    I don't see any mansplaining there, I see someone who cares about their crew and friends and who has a leadership position who's somewhat informal as his biggest transgression. That transgression is less though, since the Resistance doesn't seem like a typical military force, so based on what we've seen do that point, Poe's actions don't seem particularly out of place. Military forces are funded by governments, and so far as I can tell this one is not, they seem organized more like terrorists or personal army. I got this feeling from TFA and TLJ only seems to confirm it. They seem to behave like and not like military when its convenient to whomever. So Poe's behavior is consistent with that inconsistency as ranking officer on that ship. The issue I would say is less Poe, more direction and leadership of the resistance as a whole. They tend to not be formal, acting more like a family unit then a military one.

    Her reply to Poe's last sentence that you write would have been much better had it been something along the lines. "This isn't the place to discuss this. There is a plan in the works, and once it is worked out with (whoever, possibly inviting Poe or not depending on her) my team. Including Poe however could have been prudent considering he was the most well known officer remaining after the bridge had got blown up. Keep the trust of the crew by keeping one of the crew in the loop.
     
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  13. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel General

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    Holdo being the person to take over was already set in place by senior members of the Resistance. Also remember that like Leia, Holdo came from the rebellion and then the Republic armed forces. No longer were they rag tag members of some different rebellion sects. Poe may not know her, but she knows him. The Resistance was not just the people on the base where Leia was located. Other member had already left before the start of TLJ. Other members were in other locations. And yes telling her what everyone already knew is mansplaining. Similar to how Han reacted to C3PO in ESB when C3PO told him something obvious. Only difference was is C3PO was a droid that ultimately will do what he is told.

    C-3PO: Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable.
    Han Solo: [annoyed] Not entirely stable? Well, I'm glad you're here to tell us these things! Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive!

    The only reason that the First Order new about the plan is because Poe told Finn and Rose with DJ able to listen in on an open speaker. Otherwise DJ wouldn't have had information to trade to the First Order to save his own skin.
     
  14. deaf_gundark

    deaf_gundark Clone

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    Wow! I mentioned earlier that I thought it required a degree of self-absorption to dismiss storytelling logic & reason in order to turn an ongoing & established saga into one's own fancy, but I'd say it requires even more to say that any criticism of such is unfair. Yikes!
     
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  15. Sparafucile

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    Are those the same senior members who tapped Holdo to take over the same who refused to help them? Those senior members?

    The same Han Solo who had just abandoned his commission to pay off Jabba the Hutt? The captain of his own ship? The known scoundrel and smuggler? That Han Solo was annoyed by a droid? You honestly see a parallel there between Han and Holdo beyond their names starting with an "H"?

    Listen, by no means am I trying to convince anyone. I wrote why it didn't work for me, if some people can relate to that, great, I'm certainly not trying to offend anyone or deny them their joy in the movie if it worked for them. I can counter your points and you can counter mine, but honestly to what end? I don't agree with most of your points, or your rather loose definition of mansplaining, but it works for you. It was enjoyable for you and you were able to maintain your suspension of disbelief. I was not, can we just agree to disagree on matters regarding Holdo?
     
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  16. Rogues1138

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    He tries to please them all –
    This bitter man he is

    Throughout his life the same –
    He's battled constantly.
    This fight he cannot win –
    A tired man they see no longer cares.

    The old man then prepares
    To die regretfully –

    That old man here is me.

    You labelled me,
    I'll label you.
    So I dub thee unforgiven.
     
    #5616 Rogues1138, Dec 29, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
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  17. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Holdo doesn't share the information. We know this by Leia's explanation to Poe later and we learn why she didn't share them. She didn't want to be thought of as a hero. That is a silly reason IMO and I blame Rian, not Holdo. It's just bad writing.

    My question is this? If Holdo had been a man, and hadn't revealed the plans, does anyone believe that Poe doesn't take the EXACT same course of action at every step?
     
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  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel General

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    No I would think the same senior members that were taken out by the Tie's. Like Ackbar, Leia, etc. Maybe even senior members not even on the ship. What do you think they just draw straws or something. What does Han Solo have to do with line of succession. My point is that when someone splains something to you in Star Wars sometimes you dont get the reaction you want. It was nothing more then that. Poe was being condescending even if he didnt realize it. Then he says what do do before he even asks for a plan. He asks for a plan that conforms to what he believes must be done.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2018 ---
    It isnt bad writing when the writer writes something you dont want to happen. Leia's explanation wasnt why she didnt tell Poe her plan, hell likely she didnt even have a plan yet. Her explanation was not about how she acted with Poe. Dont know why anyone would think otherwise.
     
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  19. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I don't, but by that same token, had she not had the gown and the hair, I don't think she would have been criticized so much either.
    I really don't know what to think because the world building is atrocious. I think that's one of the big issues. We know they are not directly affiliated with the Republic, or sanctioned. So they're something like Hillbillies hiding in the hills defending the 2nd amendment in case a big bad shows up, then the FO does and they don't shy away from violence when faced with violence. I don't believe those Hillbillies are terribly organized, not that they're not, there is former military, but not at the same level as a government funded military. I see parallels there with the Resistance, and until a movie takes steps to clear that up, it's going to be an ongoing problem with the ST. Fans are going to be all over the place in what they believe the Resistance to be, which causes arguments as fans are forced to create head canon to make thing work in their heads.

    So we don't know who's in charge, we know Leia's allies refused to help, but we never directly heard their reply, only Leia's interpretation that they're on their own. The Republic seems to have no appetite to help her either. It's been often stated that the remnants of the Resistance resided on the MF. You brought up that probably others had left before the FO fleet arrived to chase Leia and hers. As a side discussion, that would be interesting. It isn't covered in TLJ as I remember, but it's certainly a possibility. Maybe the Resistance isn't starting at the MF, but will join up with others who took part on the attack of SKB in TFA. How their hierarchy works however is anyone's guess. To be fair, it wasn't covered much in the OT either, but neither did the question come up because the leadership never dies. That to me is the telling difference as to why these questions should have been dealt with, the world building should have been done before they have the events that take place in TLJ happen. Now we're arguing over things that can't be proven unless it's in a side book, and that isn't good writing imo.

    As for Solo, you brought him up as a leader who talked down to another on screen. I brought him up because I see Holdo and Han as two majorly different people, with different responsibilities and different expectations in the demeanor. I don't think using Han as a comparable to Holdo is remotely equivalent.
     
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  20. Kylocity

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    This. Absolutely.
    In traditional war movies Holdo’s part is played by a man and yes, Poe would have reacted exactly the same towards a male version of Holdo. If RJ used a woman dressed for a night at the opera in the middle of a war it’s because he wanted to spark the audience’s mistrust of her. She looked cold, overdressed and out of place. Of course the audience is with Poe and trusts him, in spite of his mansplaining and petty jealousy of Holdo. Like it or not, RJ was playing with expectation. Holdo has a plan she did not share in a very unstarwarsy manner (only scenes before Finn after knowing about the beacon thingy asks Leia “what’s the plan” without ceremony of any kind). Holdo is obviously running things very differently from Leia, and that’s, we could say, a mistake of hers... we later realise that she’s not that bad really, just a bit uppity and paranoid, and that she’s loyal and her heart is in the right place. We are not supposed to absolutely love Holdo... even though we admire her sacrifice. Our love is always for Poe because he’s just wonderful and our hero... He just needed to realise that his daring actions are not what’s needed all the time.
     
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