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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    173 vote(s)
    55.3%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    137 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    187 vote(s)
    59.7%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    165 vote(s)
    52.7%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    117 vote(s)
    37.4%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    111 vote(s)
    35.5%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    161 vote(s)
    51.4%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    202 vote(s)
    64.5%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    135 vote(s)
    43.1%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    209 vote(s)
    66.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    As @RockyRoadHux already mentioned that's one the problems of TLJ. A lot of characters (including Hux) didn't feel the same to TFA or even the OT (even though I have no problem with TLJ Luke). You need some consistency in your movies. Especially in a trilogy.

    ... this and the final shot of Hux are my favorite shots of Hux in TLJ. And what a surprise, there was no comedy to be found in these two scenes. ;D
     
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  2. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    This is what happens when you have new people take a story of existing characters from the person who developed them. I honestly don't think Rian Johnson cares about Ackbar and probably doesn't even know that he is popular among fans like me who loved him in ROTJ, and fans like you who followed him in EU. To Rian Johnson, Ackbar was just a disposable OT character to get Holdo in there, as Lucas would have never done something like that.

    Which furthers my theory that if Disney's plan was to kill the past, then make your own original characters and tell your own original story, don't s**t on exisiting characters. Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo Ren, and BB8 are probably my favorite things of the new movies (along with the Standalones where there is a bunch of new characters), but their handling of the OT characters is really what has turned me off at this point. That's sort of ironic because the only reason they wanted the OT characters was to bring old foggies like me into the theater, and the opposite happened where I'm only interested in new stuff.
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I personally do not think that Hux being shown as a clown in TLJ jeopardises the potential of this character... For me it’s a question of circumstance and perspective. This trilogy, as it is written and directed by different artists, displays different emphases and points of view, which in itself it is not a bad thing. Hux is just viewed and shown differently in TLJ. His character was not fleshed out enough in TFA to say that RJ made a transgression in his portrayal, I honestly don’t see it.

    It was wise of Gleeson, however, to insist in making his character have more serious moments. In particular at the end of the film. TLJ had not much to say about Hux, but the actor at least tried to insinuate some longevity in his character offering something threatening and interesting. Let’s also remember that elements of comedy or pathos do not necessarily make villains less significant or less scary when the time is right: Sméagol comes to mind.

    TLJ has many flaws. It has indeed an uneven tone, but Hux’s comedy, for me, is one of the better things in the film.
     
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  4. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I would have liked for Hux to have become more scary. What was best about Hux (to me) is that he was so unlike the Moffs in the OT. They were scary because they were cold and unemotional while dispatching people (Tarkin especially). Hux was scary to me (in particular after he gives his "Triumph of the Wills" type speech to the first order on SKB) is that he is NOT restrained, he is passionate, emotional, angry, and fire-breathing when they discharge SKB. He looks, sounds, and feels like a fanatic (as I suspect was the intent); and we know they are dangerous. I don't think Gleeson will ever have a scene as good as that one in SW regardless of what JJ puts together in EPIX

    In TLJ though, Hux felt more like an Errand Boy. He doesn't feel like someone who has maneuvered, manipulated, and killed his way to the top, he feels like the undeserving hand picked beneficiary of cronyism. He is there because Snoke choose someone weak that could be controlled, not because Hux was a ruthless weapon that Snoke could count on to get his dirty without hesitation or remorse. He doesn't feel dangerous at all. He feels like Snoke's pet.
     
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  5. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    ... and this is just a no go for an on going story. You don't want to show the same character differently in such a short amount of time (remember TLJ takes place only some days after TFA!), especially a supporting character. Main characters are there to grow and to have a character development. Supporting characters are used to support this grow. Therefore the term "supporting character". The character itself should stay the same for the sake of the main character.

    Hux is the counter part of Ren. So you shouldn't make him funny but dangerous and smart.

    First of all Smeagol - or in this case you're referring to Golum - ist not a villain. Regarding to the Hero's Journey he's a shapeshifter and shapeshifters blur the line between friend and enemy.
    This type of character benefits stories by creating interesting relationships among the characters and by adding tension to scenes filled with allies.

    This isn't the case for TLJ Hux. Big missed opportunity IMO.
     
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  6. Old Jedi

    Old Jedi Clone Commander

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    Turning Hux into nothing more than Spaceballs level of comic relief is one of the more egregious, yet under criticized aspects of the TLJ in my opinion. I struggle to believe watching Tarkin fall for “your mama” jokes would have enhanced the narrative tension of good vs evil in ANH.

    Who exactly is the Resistance supposed to be intimidated or frightened by in IX or who are we as the viewers of the movie supposed to believe is the insurmountable bad guy? ANH and ESB left audiences believing Darth Vader and his very ruthless army were possibly unbeatable. Kylo has been beaten and outwitted multiple times already, Snoke is dead and Hux is about as intimidating as Dr Evil in Austin Powers.

    RJ basically wrote away any real sense of danger or dramatic good vs evil clash that would excite me for IX. Watching Broom Boy and Rey take on Kylo doesn’t seem like a fair fight...Kylo will just lose again and the First Order behind him is apparently a military clown college.

    JJ has his work cut out to present any real stakes in IX. I assume that’s where rumors of the Knights of Ren come into play. There has to be SOME remotely credible bad guy or gal for Rey and the Reistance to defeat.
     
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  7. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I just don't think Hux is that important or significant. Not yet anyway.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2019 ---
    i was talking about the comedy and pathos in Smeagol/Gollum, not the convention of the character. A secondary character's comedy and pathos in one chapter will not necessarily affect his dangerous edge in the next, much more if the dangerous edge had been established in the first chapter of all, TFA. Let's wait and see. General Hux just had a very bad day in TLJ :)
     
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  8. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Every character should be significant to the story. If not, well, then there is no need to use them at all.

    The difference between Golum's use of comedy and the one of Hux is that they are interwined with Golum's dangerousness. His split personality makes him funny but als scary at the same time. The jokes about Hux just make him look funny or even stupid but not dangerous or scary.
     
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  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    What I meant is “Hux” is not significant countering Kylo in TLJ. That’s not his function in the film.
     
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  10. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Maybe Gollum is a bad example of what I mean... But remember, for instance, Jack Nicholson in the Shining (a very different character from Hux, I know, with very different mental issues and in a very different film) hamming it up big time, being quite ridiculous in his descent to evil, being knocked down quite often by his hysterical wife in the film, and still managing to be one of the most terrifying villains ever... What I'm trying to say is that comedy does not automatically make villains less intimidating... I think we should just be a bit open-minded about this. Hux was not supposed to be a threat in 8, but there is nothing preventing the character becoming one in 9. And Gleeson was clever in having that flagged at the end of 8 and remind the audience of the full potential of his character in spite of his comedy veneer in 8.
     
  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    There's a difference between someone evil doing something that happens to be funny, and someone who's played for laughs, as Hux is (Heath Ledger plays that to perfection as the Joker in Dark Knight, as we laugh and even find ourselves liking him in some ways, at least understanding his "logic" as disturbed as it is.). It's possible that Hux was never supposed to be that guy to lead the FO or oppose Kylo, but that wasn't the sense I got from JJ in TFA. After that movie I had a sense that he could challenge Kylo in leadership and strategy. His lapse against Poe denies him those qualities, which is pretty much all he had on Kylo, because Kylo can obviously top him physically. It's like if in GoT Little Finger started acting like a buffoon and doesn't know what sex means while talking to one of his prostitutes in one of his brothels. It doesn't make sense because as an owner of brothels, Little Finger knows that trade. Hux should know military strategy to know Poe is stalling for time, even if he doesn't quite get the reference Poe is making. Playing along with Poe's cheap stalling strategy denies him of even that little bit of intelligence or expertise. It makes him look the fool in front of his inferiors which harms his ability to lead. Both of those traits are all he had on Kylo, and those were undermined in a single scene.

    I think this is a part of TLJ where RJ hadn't read JJ's TFA's script and didn't understand Hux. Why after he saw TFA he didn't correct or identify that as a problem and reshoot is beyond me (I can only conclude budgetary reasons). At this point if Hux comes back as competent once more, I know I would struggle to believe that. Which is why I think Hux will be mostly irrelevant in IX, and the KoR will step in and fill the role of competent and threatening villains. So luckily, thanks to RJ not introducing them, it won't overly matter that Hux will basically be taking on the role of Salacious Crumb moving forward, the KoR will be able to fill the role of Kylo's rival in any facet JJ chooses. The only real draw back is that it reduces tension leading into IX.
     
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  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    But I think in this case it did. I think that is what people are arguing, not your general axiom but the particular application in TLJ. That Hux wasn't supposed to be a threat in TLJ seems to be more reflective of one writer's particular vision for his movie. There's nothing that I see that suggests he shouldn't be a threat in Episode 8 following Episode 7.

    I think the thing that prevents him from being a threat in Episode 9, is Episode 8. I mean if we are supposed to honor the developments that Rian provided (since this is a Trilogy), how now does Hux become a dangerous threat that we take serious? Rian didn't depict him as dangerous. He depicted him as a pompous, sniveling, incompetent opportunist. You dislike him in TLJ, but you don't fear him (honestly that feels like the entire crux of Hux and Poe's exchange at the beginning - Poe has no fear at all taunting him, because he isn't dangerous, he's pompous, sniveling, and incompetent).
     
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  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    That's how I see it too. I think the best defense to Hux's depiction in TLJ is that you never felt he was much of a threat to Kylo to begin with. I could get on board with that if that's the argument. Kylo could physically destroy Hux, it's not even a fight. The only thing that seemed to hold Kylo back was Snoke. In TFA Hux seemed competent and fanatic. Now that Snoke is gone, it's difficult to understand why Kylo would keep Hux, the incompetent one we've seen in TLJ, around. He seems more like that officer Vader force chokes for dropping out of hyperspace too close to Hoth now then he does Tarkin. So why keep someone who's incompetent and hates you around? I guess Kylo could be cruel and take some joy in torturing him, letting Hux think he has a chance or allow Hux to try and subvert the crew or others, I guess it could weed some who are disloyal, but that's about it. Seems the risk isn't worth it to me. He's kind of like Theon/Reek in GoT at this point (a few steps removed, but on his way there), and I guess it's possible for Hux to do some damage if Kylo underestimates him to the point where he doesn't pay any attention or treats him as though he's harmless. I just don't see Kylo being that cruel, or at least he'd be more pragmatic. However I wouldn't find it completely out of Kylo's character if he decided to keep Hux around to abuse either I guess.
     
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  14. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    This. This this this. Gleeson did a wonderful job in that scene. It could have been a disaster, but he made it fantastic. He came off as megalomanical and dangerous. The visual parallels to Nazism were appropriate to his behavior.

    Too bad he was reduced to cell phone humor and momma jokes in E8.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2019 ---
    Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.
     
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  15. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I think a passing on screen joke designed to show us Poe's awesomeness is making people forget Hux is still the villain we met in 7. What happened is that in 8 Hux just had a bad day... On the bridge Poe outwitted him, because Poe is awesome, not because Hux is incompetent. There is a difference. That scene was designed to make Poe look cool more than to make Hux look foolish (even though he did look foolish, I don't deny that, but, in fairness, it was something beyond his control). Hux is indeed a pompous, ridiculous character (In TFA we experience his ridiculousness during that over the top, manic speech in SKB) but the most threatening side of him comes from his opportunism and sneakiness (presented at the end of 8 and also in 7, when he chides Kylo in front of Snoke about not capturing BB8). I can perfectly see him turning quite nasty in 9 if the writing asks for it...

    Didn't Kylo also look foolish at the end of 8 after sticking that saber in Luke's ghost and shooting "no!" and throwing a tantrum in his ship, shouting "more" and throwing Hux around? Wasn't Snoke's top half falling off the throne and rolling on the floor with his tongue sticking out kind of hilarious? My point is that these sequel films (and TLJ in particular) are not shying away from presenting the grotesque side by side with the scary and serious, which IMO is quite adventurous and refreshing.
     
  16. Wolfpack

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    Are you really considering cell phone and momma jokes "outwitting" him? Yeesh....

    It was infantile.
     
    #5676 Wolfpack, Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  17. Rayjefury

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    It wasn't just that joke; the characterization is through out the movie. Hux (in his own words) receives from Snoke that the fleet was to be stopped there. But not only does he not get why 1 light fighter is attacking, not only does he suggest the wrong course of action to stop it (blasting it out of the sky - as opposed to Canady making the point that they should've scrambled fighters 5 minutes ago) he destroys an empty base, at the cost of his Dreadnaught and does not stop the fleet. And he is rag-dolled by Snoke on the bridge of his own ship in front of his men for failing to stop the Resistance's escape. Later down the line, Snoke himself characterizes Hux as a rabid cur, suggesting (and not too subtlety) that he was "kept in power" for reasons other than merit.

    There's more too, Rose biting his finger, Kylo choking him in the throne room, Kylo throwing him inside the Mega Walker. There is no "scary" or "serious" with Hux (IMO). Just a human Chihuahua barking loud and angrily but ultimately presenting no real threat to anyone.

     
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  18. TrumanJ

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    It’s pretty obvious RJ doesn’t care about any characters. I loved reading about ackbar in the EU. He was a major player. I got to know him better and learn his story which the writers of the EU did a great job in telling his story. All I keep thinking is the line for the movie...kill the past....if RJ was a true fan he wouldn’t be killing off the characters the way he did.
     
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  19. Corn Cream

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    A real problem for me is how the force sensitive characters are treated compared to everyone else. It seems Kylo isn't the only one who believes anyone that isn't force sensitive isn't important. I liked the fact that Hux wasn't scared of Kylo in TFA. It brought another dimension to the story. Now it's pointless. Kylo is in charge only because he has the force, and Rey's stupidity to believe in him. I wish there was more to Hux. I'm sick of characters having to bow down to force users. Where are the strong minds, and characters with counter plans? Some of these force users aren't the brightest bulbs in the room. I can see some of them being manipulated by those who aren't force sensitve.
     
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  20. Stormagadon

    Stormagadon Cantina Court Jester
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    Human chihuahua! That's the term I've been trying to find the fellow since I first watched TLJ! Thank you!
    In TFA, I thought what made Hux interesting and a nice contrast to all the Imperials officers was also his passion, but also that he was so obviously, and for the sake of contrast, surprisingly weak.
    His best scene in TLJ in my opinion is when he starts to pull his blaster on Kylo Ren after the throne room sequence, and quickly holsters it when Ren wakes up. It shows how spineless and weak he is, and represents (to me at least) that every opportunity Hux has to do the dirty work himself, he can't. He's unable to do it.
    If Tarkin was in the scene, you know without a doubt he would have shot three rounds easy into Ren. Hux, you expect him to be spineless, and the only way he got to the position he's in is by having others to the work for him and taking the credit himself.

    And that speech in TFA! Oh, it was wonderful because it was art imitating life. He had to give the rousing speech to the troops. If he didn't, he'd be revealed for the spineless pansy that he is. If the destruction of the Republic was a success, he'd been seen as a hero even though he offered very little by his own deeds.

    I wish we saw more of that, and here's hoping we will in IX.
     
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