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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    173 vote(s)
    55.3%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    137 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    187 vote(s)
    59.7%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    165 vote(s)
    52.7%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    117 vote(s)
    37.4%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    111 vote(s)
    35.5%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    161 vote(s)
    51.4%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    202 vote(s)
    64.5%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    135 vote(s)
    43.1%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    209 vote(s)
    66.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Steven Lewis

    Steven Lewis Rebel Trooper

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    Good point.

    Again this is something the ST could have explored instead of the story we are getting. Think about it, after everything the galaxy went through with the Clone Wars and then the tyrannical rule of the Empire with Vader, an obvious force-user, as the Emperor's enforcer, you would imagine that even though Luke defeated the Emperor the majority of people would of had enough of force-users. Especially as the Empire's propaganda would of been anti-Jedi to continue hunting them down. Instead, despite an enjoyable soft reboot in TFA we continue to have a rehashed OT.
     
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  2. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I agree with most of what you say about Hux's spinelessness.

    However that one scene of his where he considers shooting Kylo and re-holsters his sidearm as he sees Kylo stir to me was great. It shows the survivor. It shows the man intimidated by Kylo out of a lack of understanding to what Kylo is, possibly what the force and dark side is. There could be significance there beyond just that scene as much can be read into it. It could be Hux measuring the usefulness of Kylo moving forward, measuring the pros and cons of keeping him alive. It's too bad the rest of the movie so castrated Hux to the point of making him a farce.

    I think the problem I perceive is that there was only one well put together villain in the ST, both intelligent and powerful, and that was Snoke. Kylo's unstable and prone to taking tantrums. Hux seemed more disciplined, if fanatic, in TFA and it offered a reason for Kylo to keep him alive in the aftermath of Snoke, but not after TLJ because it depicts him as unworthy of any leadership position due to inherent flaws and abundant weakness. There's no reason for Kylo to keep Hux alive after the events of TLJ and TFA, because in the later it depicts their enmity, in the latter he proves himself incompetent and unnecessary to the cause. If anything, Hux is now a detriment to the direction Kylo wants to take the cause.

    There's only one path I can see for Hux now, that he creates a schism within the FO or dies early on trying. The problem is that after TLJ, who would follow him?
     
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  3. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Obviously catering for certain parts of the audience... I wonder whom...
     
  4. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I see it differently. Contrasting Hux to Poe, in light of Poe's awesomeness, only makes Hux look worse when you consider Poe's arc in TLJ.

    Poe himself is seen as greatly flawed, from a much smaller pool of potential leaders within the Resistance. So what commentary does that make on Hux?

    Hux is, for all appearances, #3 on the FO, challenging for #2 (and achieving it despite not in the way he intended, Snoke's death). Throughout TLJ he's shown as incompetent or inconsequential, weak and cowardly. This in an institution that seems to have many more people to choose from. It not only weakens Hux, it weakens the whole of the FO.

    Even if you make the assumption that Hux is an anomaly, a result of privilege in the ranks, it then leads credence to other fronts and arguments against TLJ (white male privilege as the SJW elements in TLJ driving the FO). It extends a real life world view into TLJ, which in of itself isn't horrible, and at least this time it was done well and not on the nose, but I think it also fails in another way. It bumbles it to some extent. Here's where world view comes into effect. White males are not in charge solely due to being white male, but because those who are "rich" tend to be white, thus they get better education, thus they get more experience, thus they get the skills required in larger number for leadership positions then the minorities. It's still a meritocracy, however the odds are stacked at the beginning due to the disproportionate number of white males starting with an advantage. Thus Hux, with all his flaws in TLJ coming to light, should have never got to where he was, because he has no merit. The flaws were overdone. Which then extends to the whole of the leadership of the FO. If Hux could get to #3, then how many other officers have?

    Honestly, I'm mostly thinking out loud here, so don't crucify me lol. Maybe I'm over thinking this, reading into it what isn't there. But it seems to me RJ may have instilled his own world view, simplistic as it might be, into TLJ, to explain for the all white cast of the FO. Very few people attain and maintain their job or career without some merit to back it up. Often that's education based, which should imply some merit, and provable, certifiable merit. However to climb, one has to demonstrate continued competence beyond merely those papers and certificates. The implication is that Hux did not have to, or was able to fake it somehow, and Snoke knowing better, still gave Hux that position for reasons unknown or unexplained (insinuated that he had uses in that position, but I can't think of any value other then fear of someone challenging him, which seems unlikely considering Snoke's power).

    It seems to me that RJ seems to think that if you have differing and wrong opinions, those that oppose his, you must be incompetent and an idiot. At least that the commentary on Hux. The danger in that thinking according to me is that it underestimates your opponent both in the real world (extreme right) and weakens them in the movie to make the conclusion a forgone conclusion. It minimizes the threat. A flawed rationale does not negate any other ability or skill in your opponent or rival. Only the goal is flawed, the rest of that person or those people can be just as competent, able, skilled, awesome or magnificent in their chosen expertise. Sideous, Maul, Vader, Palpatine, Tarkin ect... GL understood this, even if he does show that incompetence can sneak in (Vaders famous discipline on failure of his commanders in ESB). RJ seems to not see this, and thus attributes incompetence in almost every facet. Snoke is privileged and dies, Kylo is flawed and fails to realize Luke is a projection, and Hux, well, we've gone over that at length.

    I think it's a blind spot RJ might have (I don't know the guy, so maybe I'm completely misreading this, or over analyzing, I'm certainly open to that possibility) but to me it seems that maybe his world view was super imposed on Hux, and the FO, and thus weakens the threat which then minimizes the risk because the good guys only need those on the MF to overthrow the overwhelming force of the FO solely because it suggests the FO is incompetent at its very core.

    I'm not a fan of extremes on either side, right or left. That said, I don't under estimate their ability to corrupt or take power and cause enormous harm, because it's been done in the recent past (if we require examples). I don't under estimate their skill set despite having faulty reasoning, as both of those attributes are not in diametrical opposition. Competent people can fight for the wrong cause, blinded or disillusioned to the truth on more fronts than I can accurately name.

    I guess that's why I don't like Hux, he's a over simplification to a threat who's wrapped in the easy solution and assumption of incompetence. It minimizes the threat both real world and in story to a falsehood, that someone's belief in a faulty ideology is faulty at their very dangerous job or duty. History, both real world and fictional, has proven that to be untrue.
     
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  5. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I see it differently. RJ in TLJ is showing the flaws and weaknesses of heroes and villains. This aspect appears to be something of interest to him and that’s one of the reasons why TLJ sits somewhat uncomfortably with all the other films. RJ has a knack for spotting the ridiculous in what is meant to be serious, although I admit his on screen attempts at humour are not always as sharp as they could be. Humour is not an easy thing to deliver... sometimes less is more. Was RJ a bit heavy handed with Hux? Undoubtedly. But not for one second I think the potential of this character is gone... For me, RJ simply made us see Hux through a comic lense, a point of view. Now that point of view is gone as we have JJ, who showed us the character from a different angle in 7 and I predict will continue doing the same with him in 9.
     
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  6. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I agree 100%. Cell phone and momma jokes are indeed obviously catering to certain parts of the audience.

    I am glad we finally found some common ground.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2019, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2019 ---
    That was the one Hux scene that I liked. It showed him being opportunistic and cutthroat. For once he wasn't being treated as a bumbling fool.

    "I sure wish there was more comic relief and humor with Grand Moff Tarkin" said no Star Wars fan ever.
     
    #5686 Wolfpack, Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  7. mecano

    mecano Rebel General

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    Do you think Knights of Ren will be a real danger to Rey? Remember - Kylo Ren is a MASTER of the Knights of Ren, the best of them, she took him down twice with little effort. She took down a group of super duper elite fighters - the best of the best - emperor´s red guards. And meanwhile she saved Ben....my guess is that knights of Ren would be not match for her. Few of them with firing guns, few with axes, swords....non of them with lightsaber...she will breakfest them :)
     
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  8. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    The KoR are mostly a blank slate. I think the view we got from them in TFA was something early on after they split from Luke. Even if Kylo is their master, it doesn't mean they won't have specialities in different areas, say, a duelist, who can give Rey a run, or an ace pilot, sniper, strategist ect... all I'm saying is that JJ can attribute to them whatever he wants.

    All that being said, I hope they don't have them and Kylo all die. If they plan on continuing this saga, it would be wise to keep their options open. At this point, the death of a KoR won't have much of an impact, and I doubt it will by the end of IX. However, if Kylo dies (I can hear the screams of thousands of fans at the mere suggestion) and they keep the KoR around to keep building them up, they'd get the emotional impact (I would also state that if Kylo dies, any death of the KoR would be quickly forgotten and rendered meaningless) while having some great characters to build up for future movies or even TV series ect...

    The other interesting thing about the KoR would be their connection to Luke and his academy. Some really interesting stories can be built there (a cartoon series of Ben in Luke's academy would be interesting, and add exposition to the Luke/Ben dynamic). Personally, I wouldn't bring them all in IX, giving the impression that there are other major battles or places where they are needed, thus too important to call upon at a whim. They should have responsibilities that take precedence over Kylo's desires and not merely be an extension of him, as I feel that would cheapen them.
     
  9. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    If they plan on continuing this saga, it would be wise to keep their options open.

    Even if that happens, I don't know if Daisy Ridley will be in future movies after "Episode IX". She has already expressed a desire to move on past Star Wars. To be honest, Adam Driver has expressed the same sentiment.
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    I would have Boyega and Isaac expressing similar sentiments so that it is entirely unclear who (if anyone) survives the last Episode. If we go into EPIX thinking that anyone can be killed off, I believe it will make the story more enjoyable because there are stakes at every turn. They may opt not to kill off anyone, but at least the specter of it is there.
     
  11. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I don't think Poe and Finn have donned the same plot armor that Rey and Kylo have, so I don't think it's necessary to have them make that statement. Had Finn completed his suicide run, or had Poe taken Holdo's place for the hyperspace ram, we wouldn't have been as shocked than if Kylo or Rey had died. Bascially, the story isn't centered around Finn and Poe, but it is around Kylo and Rey, so those are the two you want to keep fans guessing about.
     
  12. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Rebel Official

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    Boyega had plot armor if for no other reason he SAID he would be in Episode IX before TLJ's release. With this being the final installment all bets are off. And I do think people would have been shocked if Finn died after repeated assertions that he was a "lead" (for whatever that's worth).

    Conventional Wisdom would suggest that none of them die so that you have the option of doing a follow up story one day (years in the future).
     
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  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I wasn't aware Boyega said he would be in IX before TLJ. I agree all bets are off, but I doubt we get more than one death from the big 4.
     
  14. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    Here's what peak (1970s-1980s) George Lucas was like and how he went about things. He was never satisfied enough with his own work (this also explains why he kept tinkering with special editions and disc changes later on) and worked with some of the other brilliant minds of the time.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=P2P7pwHeZSkC

    LOL/:(: what an indictment of the present series.

    At least Abrams at least got the input of Spielberg on TFA as well as Kasdan, Michael Arndt (even after he left), Lasseter, Ava Duvernay, Simon Pegg, and others.

    Johnson just was too pleased with himself when he made his movie.
     
    #5694 MagnarTheGreat, Jan 20, 2019 at 12:34 AM
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019 at 12:45 AM
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