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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    179 vote(s)
    55.8%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    140 vote(s)
    43.6%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    191 vote(s)
    59.5%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    170 vote(s)
    53.0%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    120 vote(s)
    37.4%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    115 vote(s)
    35.8%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    165 vote(s)
    51.4%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    206 vote(s)
    64.2%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    138 vote(s)
    43.0%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    213 vote(s)
    66.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    I don't necessarily know about that. TV isn't just live-action---all of the Star Wars cartoons produced thus far, have been made for airing on Disney XD or constructed to cater to younger audiences (Rebels, Forces of Destiny, Galaxy of Adventures, and Resistance). Not too many "old-school fans" among that demographic, I would think. The Mandalorian and the upcoming Cassian series are rooted in the OT Era for sure, though. I think they just stick to the OT because they're afraid of rocking the boat and establishing a new era.

    Which honestly makes the SW Universe feel smaller, not bigger, despite the amount of money they're showering over it, and how many movies they were planning to unleash during their "annual movie" phase of thought.

    I mean, I wanted them to do this from the beginning, to bypass a Sequel Trilogy altogether and start the next chapter of the SW Saga fresh and unburdened by past characters. The universe, lore, mythology and rules lend itself to far more than just "Rebels vs Empire Part 2: Electric Boogaloo." It's just a shame that's what they ended up doing, for such a shallow reason as to "reintroduce/reboot" Star Wars for foreign markets.

    ...Even though a new story unburdened by strict adherence to the family story of the previous movies could've been an even better jump-on point for new viewers. Just a crazy thought.

    It's more than just the Chinese having not seen the previous films. There's a multitude of factors as to why the Chinese have rejected it, chronicled by the actual minority of Star Wars fans in China, for some admittedly amusing reasons. Although, lack of experience with the previous components of the franchise is definitely apart of it.

    I desperately want to believe that the B&W films and Rian's trilogy will go to new places and eras, but I'm honestly hard-pressed to have any hope at this point. Every opportunity Disney/LFL have had to venture into new eras distinct from the OT, they've trudged back into OT territory out of risk-averse resignation. We had two OT-era spin off films, OT-centric animated shows, and two live-action TV series---the literal perfect place to experiment with new eras and unique characters---they chickened out and set them in the OT again.

    I can't go on keeping my hopes up thinking that someone along the way is going to wake up and remember that SW is a universe capable of more than the established eras. Disney/LFL's track record thus far has suggested that they think the OT is the only orchard of storytelling from which they can derive material.

    Which is devastating for fans like me.
     
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  2. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Would you put out more books closer to the ST era before completing the ST? I certainly wouldnt. Let the story play out on screen and then you start filling out the gaps. Do you know release schedule for 2020 books? I think not. How about 2021?

    The so called annual SW movies hasnt stopped yet. Since 2015 we have had a film each year. We expect no film in 2020. We dont know about 2021.

    I agree they are not going to have a book series about Old Republic Era until they decide not to do Old Republic Era movies or start developing Old Republic Era movies. It is just bad planning to do it any other way.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 5, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 5, 2019 ---
    Devastating. Really?
     
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  3. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Now, where in the Sixth Heaven did I even mention comics or novels set close to the ST Era? Did you see me ask for that anywhere in my post?

    Because believe me, if there's any era I have absolutely no interest in when it comes to supplementary material, it's the ST. Why? Well, apart from it essentially being a poorly-cobbled-together duplicate of the conflict of the OT, and the fact that I have about as much investment in the new characters as I do in the vapid empty caricatures parading around the DCEU, but the supplementary material explaining the ST era is filled with such abysmal details---things like the Empire being defeated in a single year before converting to the First Order, the New Republic de-militarizing, Kylo Ren's dark side descent being partially attributed to abuse at the hands of a droid---that I literally don't care to see anything more explored in this era. That was the reason I tuned out of Resistance---not because it looked to kiddy or was exclusively about pilots.

    No, the supplementary material should establish its own era extremely early or late in the Star Wars timeline---something so abstract or far-fetched that it couldn't possibly make it to a film. Because you know what they would accomplish by that? Not only would Disney/LFL have their hands tied by the limited scope and world-building of the ST, not only would they finally start being creative with their ownership of the Star Wars license, instead of regurgitating one-shot tripe on the hour, but they would also be establishing a unique setting and conflict that would be a distinct privilege afforded to those who read the novels and comics....something that would actually warrant buying a comic or a book, because it'd be something you couldn't do in a movie.

    Look at Dawn of the Jedi. Look at the Darth Bane Trilogy. Look at Star Wars Legacy. These stories work because they're set in eras that are either too far-fetched or complicated to condense into a film, or have aspects like immense world-building, political intrigue, or mountains of individual character arcs that would bog down the runtime of an actual movie....this is something that could be reserved uniquely for a comic, novel, or game, because that would not only budget the world and conflict depicted to something way more grandiose than a film, but allow creators to experiment without the burden of having to compromise or alter any of this to suit a mainstream audience.

    Many EU stories, games, and comics simply would never work as movies because of how they would confuse, alienate or go against the taste of the average film-goer. A KOTOR or NJO movie is never going to happen, because shareholders and company men likely believe it wouldn't fit the palate of today's audiences. And given that two of the highest-grossing films in 2018 were Aquaman and Venom, I can honestly believe that.

    Somethings simply work better as supplementary material. because nerds like us have the patience for world-building, lore, political intrigue, establishing of mythical rules...the things that may not work for the ST, or modern SW films in general, but could easily still work for supplementary media.

    Just a thought.

    Again, I couldn't care less how the story of the ST plays out at this point. I'd much rather get SW stories set in completely different, unexplored eras of the SW universe, where you wouldn't have to worry about anything clashing with the ST's...."lore", although that term is incredibly generous for the "backstory on the back of napkin" that was probably put together for this mess of a trilogy.

    Moreover, while I don't know the release schedule for 2020 or 2021 books, I do know the schedule for books released from 2015-2019. And you know what they've been thus far? Uncreative, uneventful, unimpactful, disposable tie-in material with almost no scope or era variety to speak of. And I have no reason to believe that with their current track record, Disney/LFL is going to improve or has any reason to improve.

    The current publishing branch for SW has showcased their risk-averse, uber-safe aversion to creativity for years now, and I'm not about to submit to pipe dreams or blind optimism without any provocation. I operate on practicality and past experience, not blind optimism.

    It's the same reason I was probably the only person who wasn't let down by EA's Star Wars Battlefront games, because I was never naive enough to believe that they would put out a good product. Until proven otherwise, I have the same lack of faith in the creative output of LFL Publishing and Marvel Comics.

    So we go from film in 2017, to one in 2018, to one in 2019, to no film in 2021, but you believe there just may be one planned for 2021. So Bob Iger's "slowing down of the franchise" only applies to one year of no films in the near future, by your estimation.

    Seems unlikely, but alright.

    I have absolutely no reason to believe Disney/LFL will pursue mainstream films set in an era like The Old Republic, unless their version of it did away with all of the detail-heavy conflict, copious amounts of lore, fixation on the arcs of literally dozens of characters, and other aspects they already seem averse to.

    They've already demonstrated how they can't even do those things for the trilogy of films meant to act as Saga Sequels set in their own, distinct time period from the previous two. All of those things I ^just mentioned, all of those things that made KOTOR, SWTOR and its comics and novels great....are things Disney/LFL seem aggressively averse to, in an attempt to placate the short attention span of mainstream audiences. I don't even want to imagine what their vision for The Old Republic in the SW universe would be.

    But of course, this is all assuming that they don't make W&B's movies and Rian's trilogy sponge more OT regalia and the used-future aesthetic in a shallow attempt to pander to more empty nostalgia. Which I doubt, given their output of creative work thus far, regardless of Rian's claims of it being "different like we've never seen before."

    Yes. It most certainly is.

    I know this may be difficult to believe, but I'm someone who likes the supplementary SW material like books, comics, games and TV shows better than the Star Wars films themselves. And that's because I love the universe Star Wars has, the mythos fashioned within it, the potential for wildly-unique stories following larger-than-life conflicts or characters/places we've never seen before, that have nothing to do with the ones depicted on film, or surpass the scope and depth of the films themselves. It's my favorite fictional universe, and the EU proved it can be so much more than just "Rebels vs Empire."

    So imagine my jaded revulsion that nearly everything published or released under Disney/LFL these days is anchored in the tired, exhausted, done-to-death Rebels vs Empire, Stormtrooper and TIE Fighter-laden, used-future looking OT Era with THE SAME characters and conflict everywhere, hammered home even harder by the ST movies and all of its supplementary material essentially being a clone of the ST.

    I don't know about you, but I'm not married through nostalgia to the OT to the point where I want to see it everywhere, shoveled into my mouth without any rest or hesitation. Nothing is being created, no bigger or more interesting story is being told, no proper world-building or lore-building or in-universe expansion is happening anywhere, not in the films and not in the supplementary material. It's just more of the same, everywhere you look, and there's no refuge from it anywhere in the current canon...and given that Disney/LFL have been praised non-stop for this nostalgia-pandering approach, with people like me being shouted down as "entitled" or "impatient" or "asking for fantasy or sci-fi stuff like lore and mythos from a movie about space wizards" (even though the EU, Prequels, TCW show and Rebels all proved those things can co-exist), I don't think it's ever going to stop. You aren't allowed to question Disney/LFL's approach or accuse them of being creatively-bankrupt, not without raising the ire or contempt of their obsessive and irrational defenders.

    They're going to milk the OT era long after its dry, and then make fat from its bone marrow. It's honestly making SW feel stale, hollow, unproductive and saturated, and there doesn't seem to be any sign of it stopping.
     
    #5723 Darth_Nobunaga, Feb 5, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  4. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    Dawn of the Jedi... Absolutely love it! That stuff is really good.

    I admit, I was ecstatic with The Force Awakens. But I don't watch it anymore. Why? It's a series of plot devices, vapid and paper thin characters and a nostalgia trip. That's all. Disney, by insisting on a movie being put out within 2 years of the purchase, when there wasn't much written (and then LFL throwing out GL's story treatments) really screwed the pooch.

    I'm with you, time to move into other eras. Enough with the used future aesthetic and the empire vs. rebellion plot. I love me some OT. I really do. But it is time to move forward. Not to continue to tread over the same ground again and again and again.
     
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  5. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Dawn of the Jedi was really something special, the last swan song of Dark Horse's finest artist/writer duo, John Ostrander and Jan Duursama. It also features my favorite cover art for any SW comic ever.


    As much as I despised TFA back when I first saw it, I feel way worse for the people who were momentarily invested in the story and characters of that film, and ended up disappointed by TLJ. It can't be easy to have all that tolerance and enthusiasm rewarded with a follow-up of such dismal quality. Now, luckily, I made the smart move after TFA to abandon all things canon and begin my trek into Post-ROTJ EU for the first time. Five books into NJO, and I can safely say that I don't regret that decision.

    But going back to what you said about Disney rushing to make these films two years into their purchase: have you heard that Abrams and Kasdan reportedly wrote the script for TFA in six weeks? There's also talk that he tried to get Disney to delay TFA to 2016 so more could be done with the film, but Disney wouldn't have it.

    The sad part is that I don't even dislike material pertaining to the OT outside of the films. I've been reading Agents of Chaos (an EU book, admittedly, but relevant for what I'm about to say), and it's been a fantastic ride because of the kind of development, struggle, and arc they give to Han Solo. I didn't think it was possible to develop someone like him after his minor arc in ANH, but James Luceno did it. And now I'm excited to read the exploits of a character I only had a passing interest in from the original films.

    But you know what else? This book was from back in 2000. By then, the ancient era of the Sith & Jedi had been long established in their chronicled history by way of both Tales of the Jedi and the Beastrider Wars. You had Dark Horse printing adventures starring the then-relevant PT characters like Ayla Secura, Quinlan Vos, Darth Maul and Aurra Sing. You had novels set before, after, during the OT, during the PT, and thousands of years before either one. You literally had the EU covering all of the basis, and this was during the outbreak of the PT films, accommodating for the lore and mythos that the movies were filling in by the second.

    I literally don't know why Disney/LFL and Marvel are so allergic to that approach now. It's like they themselves are so high off the nostalgic fumes of the OT that they think that era and ONLY that era is fertile ground for Star Wars stories.

    I didn't used to think this, but I really think that the ST films would've benefited from being set in an all-new era and setting distant from the OT altogether from the start. That would've forced the people involved to actually roll up their sleeves and create something original instead of pilfering the corpse of the OT like creatively-bankrupt grave robbers. And just when you think they're about to do just that....they announce a Cassian series, and a Mandalorian series that will "feel just like the OT", according to reports.

    For God's Sake, LucasFilm...MOVE ON, already! You're making this universe feel SMALLER, not bigger.
     
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  6. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I'm finishing up book two of the New Jedi Order. Good stuff (took a bit to get started as the darn flu visited our house in January). I love the characters. I've become invested in them. I really wanted to like these ST characters, but they just don't compare.

    I think what pissed me off about TLJ is that it felt... I don't even know how to put it. I had high expectations. I liked RJ's work on Breaking Bad (granted, he didn't write those episodes, but he did direct them), and my wife enjoyed both Brick and Looper (I've yet to see Brick, but Looper is good). I seem to remember reading somewhere that TLJ was essentially a reboot of the reboot. I don't know where it was that I saw that, but I'm like "HUH???"

    You said it best, creatively-bankrupt grave robbers.
     
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  7. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Do you understand an example? I used the ST not because you like it or not. It is all about planning out and preserving the storylines. Frankly the EU went spastic. Disney/LFL is not doing that now because of other media being so important now. So rather then rambling on about the past tell us how if you were managing the franchise, which priority one is TV and Films, how would you do it. I get it you dont want them to be careful.

    Dont forget they had films in 2015 and 2016. So they have had an annual film in 2015,2016,2017,2018 and 2019. So maybe we get a pause in 2020. Yes the standalone films have been focused on the OT, but of course the fandom has been very interested in. I mean time after time after time what have you heard clamoring for an Obi-Wan movie and to a lessor extent a Boba Fett movie. Always at the tip of Star Wars fans tongue. They went with Rogue One and Solo 1st simply because they had Rogue One story already laid out. Going to new eras to me require far more then a stand alone film.

    Maybe it is a generational thing. I am 52 and have been a fan since a early June 1977 when I walked into a theater for the 1st showing of a movie and didnt leave until the theater closed. It has been something that bonded me to my father and to my 3 sons. More so then anything else.

    I venture into this thread every so often and time for me to back out again. To much darkness and negativity and that isnt Star Wars for me. So long for now.
     
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  8. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I am going to throw my two cents in here. IF I were running LFL and managing the franchise, I would be careful, but not to the point of lacking creativity. The first thing I'd have done is have a plan. There are WAY too many quotes of RJ saying there was no overarching plan for the trilogy and he was allowed to do whatever he wanted to do. The way the films and the books have been released just feels slipshod. Add to that the fact that KK rarely talks about (talked, as she is no where to be found in the last 12 months or so) story and Star Wars lore. Heck there was a video of her being asked a question about what she thought when she first saw Star Wars and it was PAINFULLY obvious she isn't and wasn't a fan. That's okay. But she was totally the wrong person to head LFL.

    So I would have determined, assuming we were going to do the ST, what is the story? Where is this going? How to we tell this story in different mediums (Film, books, comics, etc...)? Then you have everything build up and on the others.

    1. Aftermath Trilogy (develop the early foundations of the Acolyts of the Beyond... whatever happened to them??)
    2. Stand alone film one (the rise of the first order?)
    3. Stand alone film two (building upon film one or the rise of the resistance??)
    4. Episode VII
    5. Stand alone film three (Rey get's trained as a jedi)
    6. Stand alone film four (Kylo and his boys doing bad boy stuff???)
    7. Episode VIII
    8. Stand alone film five (the start of the new Jedi order?)
    9. Stand alone film six (The continuing adventures of Rey and Finn and Poe?)
    10. Episode IX

    The books need to do more and be brought into the story of the films (like I said, what happened to the Acolytes of the Beyond???)

    I love love love Rogue One (no one will make me not like it), but where does it fit in? I enjoyed Solo, but again, what's the point? If they were gonna go ahead and do them, then they should have saved them and they could put them on Disney streaming now that they are about to launch it (Iknow they didn't realize they were gonna do that back in what 2013/14?)... You could also use the above plan but just replace it with a different era, perhaps moving the ST out of a time period where Luke/Leia/Han are involved.
     
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  9. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    And that example doesn't apply, because the notion that there can't be expansive or ambitious stories during the release of the ST films is ludicrous, as the EU during the release of the PT Movies showed that you could easily craft stories during the era of the films, as well as tackle eras extremely distant from that of the film, like the example I used, Tales of the Jedi. Disney/LFL didn't tackle other eras or delve into expansive story arcs because they wanted to save all the big ideas for their annual films. Which was a terrible approach, not just because of saturation, but also because not all premises in the Star Wars universe lend themselves to film, as Rogue One and Solo most certainly prove. The films can't exist without feeling like either bloated fan-service or a premise as basic as the theft of the Death Star plans stretched out to fill a 2-hour runtime. For God's sake, Solo and A.C. Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy essentially accomplish the same origin story despite being from different canons, and yet the latter is still better than the former purely because a series of books can accomplish what would be deemed "boring", "complicated", or "excessive" for a 2-hour mainstream film.

    The only part of the EU that went "spastic" and started to contradict with the films was the early 90's EU, during the Bantam Era, and that was because the new PT movies would contradict with some of what had been established. But once the PT films came out, the ambition or scope of the EU didn't cease, and the variety of eras wasn't bogged down. It continued and flourished. There were no mountainous contradictions or jumping of the shark. Some Post-ROTJ books like Fate of the Jedi even worked hard to better to accomodate the building lore of the PT and Clone Wars. Spanning multiple eras lets you do that.

    There's no reason Disney/LFL can't do that, especially now that Solo's bombing has shown them that their aggressive annual film release push is the exact opposite of what they should pursue. But I don't expect them to start developing creative tendencies, even for the new TV shows and novels they have planned. Almost everything outside of Episode 9 announced for 2019 and beyond is OT-set or OT-inspired.

    Because of course they are.

    But that's not the only thing fans are interested in, especially someone like me. And what is the most common point of contention leveled at the ST films? That they're too similar to the OT in terms of aesthetic, plot structure, conflict, and setting.

    If there's an interest in the OT, Disney/LFL is killing it rapidly by over-saturating it to absurdity.

    The likely reason people were clamoring for the Obi-Wan/Boba Fett film is because they were both far more interesting premises than something as dull and predictable as a Han Solo Origin Story. And that's not hyperbole, either---that film was greeted with all the anticipation and excitement of a root canal by hardcore fans.

    And no one told Disney/LFL to make their first standalone films OT-Centric. That was entirely their decision. And it was a particularly poor one, considering how similar the ST films are to the OT, therefore making the last four years of Star Wars films non-stop OT regalia and rehashing. So they either should've made the ST more unique to enable the standalone films set in the OT feeling like a fresh look back, or kept the ST in its OT-centric state and made the standalone films about different eras that wouldn't interfere with the flow of the ST's story.

    They opted to do neither, and slammed their foot on the gas pedal to go full-on OT with every film they've put out. And Star Wars is all the more stale and lifeless because of it.

    And now they had the opportunity to go to new eras with their upcoming TV shows and novels. And what do we get?

    Cassian, an OT series. The Mandalorian, an OT series. Resistance, which is part of the ST, which is everything OT but name.

    They haven't moved on from the OT in the slightest, and something tells me they won't for the B&W films and Rian's Trilogy.

    My father is 62. He has seen every Star Wars film in the theater since 1977, and is probably an even bigger fan of the films than I am. The strongest part of our family bond is our ability to not see each other for years of our lives, and still be able to talk about our shared passion for Star Wars like no time has passed. And he hates the play-it safe, exploitative, OT-reliant approach of the new films more than I do. He thought they were putting out way too many movies, and not doing enough creating or establishing any kind of unique era with any of the new films, and absolutely despises the fact that Disney/LFL pilfer the OT so much. Not just because he desperately wants to see a new SW era, but because he sees it as a cynical gesture that SW can only ever be the OT, and nothing more.

    It's not a generational thing at all. Some of us just don't want to see the OT everywhere we look in Star Wars. Some of us like a universe that's broad and creative, instead of constrained and unoriginal.

    Hell, @Darth Wardawg is an older guy than I am (no offense meant to him, of course), and he's just as fed up with Disney/LFL's approach as I am. So that alone should tell you generational differences have nothing to do with it.

    This isn't me telling you to leave, but in complete honesty, how much positivity were you expecting from a thread for jaded/miserable fans like this?

    That's like expecting a wealth of cheer and optimism after walking into a funeral session.
     
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  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I somewhat agree, and I think your general outline (or something similar and that you'd probably accept or possibly even maybe prefer) could still be achieved. I guess that's where I'm still hopeful. It isn't ideal, and I agree they messed up, but I don't think they messed up as badly as some think. Yes, some elements we'll never get, and probably should never get, there's no going around that anymore, and some of that is no longer in their power. But, moving forward they can still expand retroactively on many of the issues in your outline, probably in books or animation series. I can see LFL giving things time after IX before the next movie, seeing the result of their live action series and such before determining their next steps.
     
  11. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Sorry to hear about your encounter with the flu. Hope you're feeling better.

    Yes, NJO is really a treasure for me, because I often find myself less interested in the exploits of the established characters like Luke, Han and Leia, and far more interested in Jaina, Anakin and Jacen's adventures. They've literally turned into people I've grown attached to, as if I know them in real life on a personal basis. Not to mention the fascinating threat in the form of the Vong Invasion. I literally read their chapters multiple times as I go through, so I can soak in their insidious nature and sinister cultural trappings, like the names of their tech and their zealous mantras.

    Meanwhile, trying to like the ST cast and plot is like trying to appreciate the texture and flavor of hard tack.

    Truth be told, even though I had disowned this new trilogy, and had made the potent decision to jump ship with the full knowledge that I'd have no investment going forth, I fully expectedTLJ to be leaps and bounds better than TFA. I wouldn't see it myself (I had no reason to), and I knew I wouldn't like, but I was positive that the sheer virtue of having someone other than J.J. Abrams being involved with the creative direction would mean that, at the very least, people still invested in this trilogy would have a worthy sequel suited for their interest.

    So imagine my utter shock to the point of hilarity when I, in December 2017, with my nose buried in an EU novel and completely unaware of the storm erupting on the Internet, get texts from those of my friends who've seen it that it's an even worse film than TFA.
     
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  12. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    No offense taken dude. I am definitely frustrated with the lack of originality and the lack of a coherent and logical plan. Heck, the books, comics, cartoons, EVERY bloody thing is OT centric. But then we are told "kill the past..." "Let it go man..." "It's just a kids film with space wizards" (that last statement is the one I hate the most).

    We shall see. Iger himself said there will be a slowdown, but we do know the Benieoff and Weis (spelling?) trilogy should start filming sometime in the next 18 months or so, I would assume. I think we won't get a film in 2020, but '21? Who knows?

    What I was kind of trying to get at wasn't so much that I wanted them to do X, then Y and then Z, but that I wanted them to have a plan. They were the ones who said they wanted to do for Star Wars what Kevin F. had done for the MCU. The difference I think is that Kevin F. is a HUGE FAN of Marvel. He gets it. KK is a numbers cruncher. I don't think she gets Star Wars in the least.

    I will say I truly hope IX is an excellent film. I won't trust what the critics say, however. I'll wait a few days, see what the buzz is from fans and make my own decision as to whether or not to go see it at the cinema. I love seeing Star Wars films at the cinema, and I REALLY want to like this, but I'm no longer going to simply give them my money if I think the product is sub-par.

    We are all better now. Thanks. I am hoping to get through NJO book 2 today. And you hit the nail on the head. I love this because I am digging the OTHER characters like Jaina, Anakin, Jacen and Mara Jade. I never really cared for Luke and Leia and Han in the books to be honest. But these other characters, man I'm digging the heck out of them.

    What gets me is that TFA is just a series of plot devices meant to move things along. There wasn't much thought put into it, and while some of it I do blame on Iger insisting on a film right away, the fact is they should not have thrown away GL's story treatments if they didn't have anything else. And we know, they had nothing else.

    AS for TLJ... in a way I get why Rian Johnson said, "screw it" as a lot of what JJ did was just, as I said, plot devices. However, to simply be obstinate and throw it all out? I would have at least tried to roll with it and continue the story. Answer the questions instead of saying "gotcha!" Who is Snoke? Who is Rey? Where are the Knights of Ren? Why not use them? I would have tried to come up with a better answer for why Luke is on the island instead of "he tried to kill his nephew." But oh well. What's done is done. Back to the New Jedi Order. Did I say I love this series?:cool:

    (duel)
     
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  13. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Disney/LFL's irksome oversaturation of the OT is sure killing my enthusiasm for the past, I'll admit that.

    But that last one about being a "kid's movie with space wizards"...yeah, and? Is Star Wars immune to making sense, being creative or going to dark places because the films themselves were aimed at 10-year-olds? Keep in mind, The Clone Wars something aimed even moreso to children then the actual films...it was an animated series on Cartoon Network, for goodness' sake. And yet George Lucas thought that kids could handle political intrigue of the Seperatists and the Republic, the warring factions of Mandalore, the introspective metaphysical imagery of Mortis, and most importantly, the unapologetically graphic content such as Darth Maul decapitating kneeling hostages, Asajj Ventress Force choking a Clone Commander and impaling him on her lightsaber, and Savage Oppress doing things like snapping the Toydarian King's neck or plunging his head-spikes into Adi Gallia's rib cage.

    So, yeah. Lucas must've thought kids could handle a lot of dark content and sophisticated storytelling in their entertainment---which invites them and older audiences to both take it seriously. This isn't a new approach: Batman TAS, Young Justice, Avatar The Last Airbender, Teen Titans, Voltron: Legendary Defender and Gargoyles are all shows aimed at children, but don't compromise the quality or in-universe logic...out of respect for the age of their audience, not despite them. The people who use this "kid" defense for the ST are, without even realizing it, are essentially adjusting their standards to accommodate for the incredibly poor writing in these movies by excusing it as children's material.

    Blind devotion to a product generates mentality like this.

    I always thought Luke was okay in these kind of books myself, but the kind of wisdom he demonstrates with his Jedi Order is something truly gratifying. I don't want to spoil it, but in the book you're on, there's an excellent showcase of this during an expedition involving Luke and Jacen, and it's one of my favorite Luke moments in Star Wars history.

    Having said that, it's absolutely Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin's story for me. Checking in on the Old Guard as well as other characters like Mara and Corran is nice, but the development of these teenagers is what I find entertaining.

    Especially considering this war is ten times more brutal than the ones their parents fought.

    And this is precisely why I never place the blame solely on Rian Johnson. Make no mistake, I think he's a woefully incompetent writer, but the only reason he was able to get away with every single cringe-inducing idea in TLJ was because J.J. Abrams failed to set up anything concrete in TFA. In Ep. 7, barely anything is established----the conflict is vague, the setting is vague, the context for the war and family drama is vague, even the motivations for characters are vague. By creating a solid foundation for the trilogy, and establishing concrete details so rigid that even Rian Johnson would be unable to wriggle free and come up with half the unbearable ideas he ended up conjuring up, we likely wouldn't have gotten the cinematic trainwreck we were dealt in December 2017.

    It's why I constantly say that no one person is responsible for the soiling of the Sequel Trilogy: it was a team effort.

    I'm obsessing over NJO by the day. I'm thinking about taking the time to go out and print out some high-quality posters of the fabulous Japanese book covers done back in the day by Tsuyoshi Nagano.

    They're Star Wars artwork at its absolute peak. Simply jaw-dropping in their majesty.
     
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  14. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    The Force Awakens was released less than four years ago. I understand the criticism, but I'm not sure what y'all expect Disney to do in the early stages. The prequel trilogy was super divisive and critically panned. Disney wasn't going to take big risks out of the gate. Judging Lucasfilm after four years is a little harsh. They have a plan. There are some people who only want OT stories. Sounds like TV is gonna feed that and the films are going in a different direction after IX.
     
  15. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Be creative with the sequels instead of outright rehashing a previous trilogy by way of every aspect, from aesthetic, to conflict, to factions, to premise, to story beats, to ship and planet designs? Because that might've been the way to go. In fact, by the looks of the TFA Concept Art, that's precisely the direction they seemed to be going. But, no. They'd rather re-tell the OT in a fruitless attempt to re-package the OT story for Chinese audiences that had missed out on the original films, to reboot it in every sense but name.

    And then the exact audience they were looking to attract with it turned their nose up at it. So creative integrity was sacrificed for corporate intent, and now the entire trilogy and era has suffered for it.

    Make no mistake: every part of the Star Wars canon is hobbled by this obsessive need to sponge as much from the OT as possible. What do the main saga films mostly resemble? The OT era. What was the subject matter of the two standalone films thus far? The OT. What have both cartoons been about? The OT era, and its clone, the ST era. What are 85% of the novels about? The OT era. What are most of the current comics about? The OT era. What are most of the upcoming novels about? The OT era. What was the major focus of both upcoming live-action TV shows? The OT era. What was the subject matter of both Battlefront games, the cancelled game, and the upcoming Fallen Order game? The OT era. We've had, and we're going to have enough Empire vs Alliance , X-Wings and TIE Fighters, Stormtroopers and Rebels, and retro used-future aesthetic to make us puke, eat it up, and puke it back out. It's not deviating, and it's not stopping. This is what Star Wars has been for five years since the canon re-launched, and Disney/LFL have bypassed every opportunity to demonstrate an ounce of creativity, in a shallow effort to pander to empty nostalgia. All of Star Wars is affected by this, and I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if W&B's movies and the Rian Johnson trilogy are riddled with more OT regalia as well, despite all promises to the contrary.

    At this point, Disney/LFL have such a derivative and uninspired track record that I have no motivation to judge them any less harsh than as I do now. You're more than welcome to be optimistic about the current direction.

    But I've got better things to do, and higher standards than to shovel Original Trilogy Rehash Film/Comic/Novel/Game/Cartoon/TV Show #43097901123 down my throat. Better things are worth my time, my investment and my money.

    Like the EU novels/Dark Horse comics at my local Half-Price Books, for instance.
     
    #5735 Darth_Nobunaga, Feb 6, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    That's fine and you are free to do whatever you want, but logically speaking... four years into Disney control this path makes sense. The animated series weren't really the vehicle to explore new eras. By design this trilogy was gonna play it safe. I know this isn't the thread for it, but financially and critically the ST has been a huge win for Disney. Based on what we've heard they realize that they'll have to move in a different direction, but like I said it's been four years. In three more years I expect us to have a clearer picture of what they're trying to do.

    My biggest gripe with the ST is the whole First Order is basically another Empire element, but I understand why they went in that direction.
     
  17. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Five years, if you count the start of the new canon, which began as early as Star Wars Rebels in 2014.

    It's not the only vehicle, yes. Other eras far removed from the current films could've been explored in novels, comics or games. Tales of the Jedi and KOTOR are living proof that this approach has worked before.

    But Disney's need for an annual film approach shot the potential for those kind of stories in the foot. And Solo proved that this approach wouldn't work, to where even Iger admitted it was a poor maneuver.

    They had treatments by Lucas being turned into a script by Michael Ardnt, that Bob Iger publicly praised as something the company approved of---and that story was going diverge and be plenty different. It was only later that Disney dropped that in favor of playing the trilogy safe, not for creative reasons, but to appeal to foreign markets that had no previous infatuation with Star Wars.

    That attempt failed, and the trilogy is suffering creatively for it.

    The movies are doing well financially, but Disney didn't buy the Star Wars license just for the rights to make movies. They purchased the brand, which is everything financially associated with Star Wars.

    And Disney's Fiscal Year reports from 2018 show a steady decline in just about everything else that's Star Wars related. Toy sales are not doing as well as shareholders want, published materials like comics and novels are showing a drop in sales, and the AAA games by EA have underperformed significantly. Is that the equivalent of financial disaster? Certainly not.

    Does it look bad for shareholders, who expected the Disney purchase of the brand to be lucrative on every front of production? Most certainly. Although I'm certain that Galaxy's Edge will do wonders financially, I can guarantee you that the financial success of every other Star Wars product beyond the films is not what shareholders wanted nor anticipated from Disney's purchase of the brand in 2012.

    All of Star Wars is supposed to make money to these people, not just the films. The financial success of Star Wars on all fronts in the decades prior to the Disney purchase is what made it such an appealing investment....an investment which the brand is not living up to on all fronts.

    It shouldn't have taken them that long to change direction. Or rather, it shouldn't have taken a bomb like Solo for them to change their approach with released material.

    And frankly, I'm not the least bit convinced that this new direction is going to amount to a shred of creativity, especially given all that's been announced for the near future. See also, "OT era all day everyday." No rest for the Rehash Train.


    I understand why they went in that direction as well, and in isolation, it isn't a bad idea. The problem is that they went with an Empire element that looks, functions, fights, and operates 1-to-1 exactly like the previous Empire, with the same ships and soldier class, with two Sith in charge, with the Republic demolished and the Jedi extinct again, fighting a ragtag bunch of freedom fighters in the exact same fashion as the previous trilogy. Interesting knock-off factions from the Empire can exist, the EU has proven it time and time again with things like Thrawn's ascendancy and the benign Fel Empire, but this was almost a complete copy-and-paste job of the previous antagonistic force.

    The only massive difference is the brief notion of them having underdog status in TFA, but that barely comes up again or bears any real weight on their involvement of the plot. They're still the larger and better-equipped enemy, and the good guys are still a ragtag minority that fights at half the numbers and technical proficiency. In other words, their one difference from the Empire is absolutely meaningless in context of the conflict and drama.
     
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  18. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    This. This this this.

    The value of the Star Wars brand goes far beyond merely the movie revenue (although that is certainly no small part). There is a lot of concern at Disney over the fact that everything Star Wars related is on a significant downward trend with no signs of that course reversing. E8 failed to live up to financial expectations and Solo was nothing short of a disaster. I don't think anyone still believes Rian Johnson will ever have another SW movie, let alone a trilogy, so it seems that it is going to be up to Benioff and Weiss to shake things up.
     
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  19. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    I expect them to have a plan. I totally disagree they do. All evidence appears to show they don't, or if they do their plan is bunk man. Redoing the OT as the ST, that's their plan??? Who came up with that? They themselves said they were going to do to Star Wars what Kevin Feige was doing to the MCU. Those are their own words. If anyone thinks they've done an MCU with the IP that's cool, but I would strenuously disagree. And if they copied the OT to try and win over China, their plan is an abject and complete failure. TLJ did worse in China than TFA, as if that was possible.

    The PT was critically panned. No doubt. But who cares what critics think? They thought the Force Awakens was a fantastic film. It was fun. It was steeped in nostalgia. But to call it a fantastic film? Hyperbole is the order of the day apparently. Heck I enjoyed TFA and I was excited for TLJ. But neither film is great, at least not in my humble opinion. I LOVE Rogue One, but I also realize it's not a great film. Why is it the equivalent of heresy to dislike the ST?

    But what does the PT being critically panned have to do with the ST? The fact remains, at least the PT had interesting characters, world building, and a cool story. The ST could have had that. Instead it's a rehash of the OT, and not a very good one at that.

    What I expected was a plan that made sense, films that built upon each other, not a reboot of the series that copied the OT, only to have itself get the reboot treatment in the next installment. I expected the one of films to flesh out the GFFA, and maybe just maybe, feed into the saga films. I expected they would do what the PT did well (the aforementioned world building, etc...) while avoiding the negatives (the bad actor directing, the horrible dialogue, the over-reliance on CGI).

    Was I expecting too much? Maybe. I guess I expected a company that just spent $5 billion (give or take) on an IP to know what they are doing. I expected LFL, if they were going to remove the old EU, to have something better. Have a plan. Have everything tie in and make sense the way the Marvel films flow from one to another and build on each other. Five years in and Bob Iger came out and admitted they messed up (something I'd have expected the head of LFL to have done, but I guess I'm expecting way too much).
     
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  20. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I'm not gonna debate y'all about the success of this trilogy. Obviously this isn't the thread for that. I simply don't agree.

    :)

    Star Wars is fine and Disney has a strong record of steering brands in the right direction. Whatever outage is out there will shift over time.
     
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