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THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Kript, Dec 13, 2017.

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Which points do you agree were not well made and you did not like?

  1. 1.Luke as a character

    188 vote(s)
    56.8%
  2. 2.Phasma being wasted

    145 vote(s)
    43.8%
  3. 3.Forced and bad humor

    196 vote(s)
    59.2%
  4. 4.Finding out nothing about Snoke and his premature death

    177 vote(s)
    53.5%
  5. 5.Rey parents being nobodies

    127 vote(s)
    38.4%
  6. 6.Maz and Luke's lightsaber

    120 vote(s)
    36.3%
  7. 7.The knights of ren are forgotten and nowhere to be seen

    172 vote(s)
    52.0%
  8. 8.Leia flying through space scene

    214 vote(s)
    64.7%
  9. 9.Luke's weightless death

    146 vote(s)
    44.1%
  10. 10.The whole Finn and Rose plotline

    221 vote(s)
    66.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    You do have that advantage. I've grown to passionately despise the character, to the point where he's my most hated SW character in any movie, of any canon. And part of it is because of that scene, and what it attempts to create.

    I will say that I have a high tolerance for cheesetacular dialogue (being a longtime aficionado of the Prequel Trilogy & all of its warts), but most of the dialogue that I tolerate in that category gets most of its cheese from an excess of gravitas & overdramatic writing. A dialogue style that, I've noticed, also characterized the way characters spoke in PT-era media like the TCW show, which I'm certain was a deliberate choice, since characters don't talk that way in something like, say, Rebels. I can take overdramatic dialogue because, in my mind, it fits the genre trappings. There's cheese, but somewhere in there, you can detect the logic in it.

    But then you have lines like Holdo's woefully stupid "sun = hope" analogy, which lack all logic to speak of. You have Snoke, who's repeating himself over and over when he's not quoting Palpatine nearly word-for-word (great dose of originality there by the way, Rian), and some of THE dryest exposition in existence get regurgitated from Rey's seemingly always-open mouth.

    ROTS and TCW are quotable in a way that's cheesy, but endearing. I can say them around my friends without wanting to curl inwards like a peeling onion from the cringe. Quoting TFA or TLJ is like quoting someone's half-finished fanfiction on Wattpad---it sounds like something written by someone who learned English yesterday, or doesn't know how analogies work.
     
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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Please feel free to respond to the points I actually made instead of lamely editing my own words into something I didn't write. Otherwise, thank you for admitting you can't address the points I made.
     
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  3. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    Yoda and Obi-Wan were also conspicuously absent when Luke was contemplating killing his father in Return of the Jedi.
    [​IMG]

    I agree with @Moral Hazard about dialogue, but the PT has by far the cringiest lines. Even in ROTS, a film I like more than Solo has some LOL bad dialogue.

    The only new Star Wars film that has had a PT cringe moment for me is how Solo gets his name.
     
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  4. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Brilliant observation, except for the fact Luke’s unhinged instance of anger wasn’t something the film showed as preventable by the ghosts, which is very much the case in TLJ. Literally the second Yoda shows up, three entire years after the incident in question, Luke is shown undergoing the epiphany he needs to pull him out of his exile to save the heroes. The stakes in ROTJ are not whether or not Luke turns to the Dark Side—it’s whether he can bring himself to kill his father (something the Force ghosts outright encourage, which you interestingly seemed to neglect). Luke having a momentary shift to the Dark Side and then having the strength of character to pull himself back is not what the film is built around, nor something the Ghosts didn’t warn him about beforehand. TLJ is literally built around getting Luke to get his cowardly butt in gear to do something in aid of the heroes, something that Rey is shown being unable to do, but Yoda can seemingly can…just not when it’s inconvenient in the script, and not at a crucial moment like, say, when Luke’s considering killing his own nephew, or when he’s weeping over the corpses of his annihilated students. So congratulations on making a false equivalency.

    Also, it was never established that the Force Ghosts could do anything more than linger or offer advice in the OT. Meanwhile, you have Yoda literally summoning lightning that can affect the real world in TLJ, something that would’ve been incredibly useful when Ben Solo was rampaging throughout Luke’s Academy wreaking slaughter….or, y’know, literally any time before that, like in the battle against the Emperor in ROTJ.

    Something that Rian didn’t account for, and I’m almost certain you won’t either. At least not without anything that’s pure head-canon or outside of the film.


    [​IMG]
    I empathically disagree. There’s nothing so cringey or on the nose as talking like a Sailor Moon character (see EVERY LINE uttered by Snoke or Rose Tico), analogies that are as incoherent as a fan translation, or sometimes literally spelling out your movies’ themes like your audience is too unintelligent to understand:

    “At least you're stealing from the bad guys and helping the good.” “Good guys, bad guys, made-up words.”
    “Hope is like the sun…if you only believe in it when you can see it, you’ll never make it through the night.”
    “That’s how we’re going to win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.”

    For all the PT’s soap opera tripe or diatribes about sand, if the films had some underlying themes, they almost never went as far as hammering them to the audience’s forehead through dialogue. Anakin mirroring Luke’s journey in ROTS but taking the alternate path, the idea that religious dogmatism can corrupt an order of people with good intentions, or that the most dangerous people in a war are the ones that manipulate both sides are major themes and underlying messages that are never spelled out word-for-word out of anyone’s mouth in the story.

    Rian Johnson communicates his themes with the subtlety of a brick wall. He literally has the characters parrot his themes out for you, which funnily enough, is another trademark of horribly-dated late 90’s anime…characters spelling out the themes of love and friendship out for their audience with ham-fisted dialogue and zero nuance.

    Fun fact: Bob Iger greenlit the Solo project based on that scenario of Han getting his name, when the film was initially pitched to him. I can’t imagine how this could be the same guy who initially mandated annual Star Wars films to be released throughout the 2040’s back when LucasFilm was first purchased. He seems to know a good idea when he sees one.

    But as far as Solo’s dialogue goes, I’ll raise you L3-37’s immediate “Equal Rights” response to Lando asking if he can get her anything.

    Even if you can argue that it’s a part of L3’s character, that literally comes out of nowhere, and I know almost nobody who found that even remotely funny...kind of like the rest of L3's character, frankly.
     
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  5. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    It was never established in A New Hope that Jedi could grab objects the the force. It's perplexing to me how hostile people are to new lore. It was one of the things I always found odd about the complaints the rule of two or midiclorianos.

    I'm not going to change your mind and I wouldn't even try to... this is thread dedicated to hate after all.
    I loved L3 and thought she was hilarious even though Solo is near the bottom of my list of my favorite Star Wars films.
    I'm not sure why you think that quoting these like it's some objective thing that makes the lines horrible. Cool, you hate it.

    I love The Last Jedi... it's easily the best written Star Wars film. It's super quotable. I understand a few people will struggle with Luke, but Lucas conceived of Apocalypse Now Luke.

    I don't hate any Star Wars film.
     
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  6. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Nope. Obi-Wan uses the Force on a distant object in the Death Star to create a noise that distracts two of the Stormtroopers in ANH.

    Try again.

    I'm currently reading a SW Book series about an extra-galactic invasion of aliens that are seemingly immune to the Force. There are people with objections to expanding the lore of the SW galaxy, but I'm not one of them.

    The line I draw is when something is introduced that fundamentally breaks the stakes of previous films, and is also not explained whatsoever. Yoda's Force Lightning Summon is both: it happens with no explanation or visual implication for how he can do it, and it's something that contradicts with Obi-Wan's line in ESB about being unable to interfere, while also raising the question as to why neither he nor Yoda assisted Luke in any physical fashion in any of his near-death confrontations with the Sith. That absolutely destroys the stakes of those films, and it isn't even given an explanation---which is funny, because Rian dedicated several lines of the script to explaining the stakes of the Raddus chase to make it seem logical, so he clearly isn't above characters spewing exposition.

    The Sith traditionally operating in pairs and a biological component to how Jedi sense Force-Sensitives does not destroy any pre-established stakes. Yoda's use of Force Lightning absolutely does.

    That's the fundamental difference you choose to ignore. But your arguments tend to consist of false equivalencies anyway, so it shouldn't surprise me all that much.

    You need valid arguments and relevant sources of proof in order to change anyone's mind. Consider employing one or both next time.

    Cool. That's not a counter to why the line I cited is forced and bizarre as a piece of dialogue.

    You have yet to demonstrate why they're objectively good lines, or provide any counters to my claims of them lacking subtlety and ham-fistedly spelling out the themes for the audience like they have no intelligence.

    I'm not "a few people" because I don't have any gripes whatsoever with the premise of a emotionally-devastated and jaded Luke Skywalker who retreats into physical and psychological exile. One of my favorite EU Story Arcs is Han Solo undergoing that same cycle.

    And the exile that Lucas was planning for Luke in his story treatments is something I would've loved to see. The reason the version of that Exile in TLJ is something that comes off as laughable to me are the reasons and justifications in the story for why Luke enters that exile, all of which stem from Rian Johnson's deficiencies as a writer, among other things.
     
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  7. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I never said anything about them being "objectively good." It would a silly argument to make about an art form that's purely subjective. You like the PT even though it wasn't received well by critics and didn't have very good audience scores. That doesn't mean you're wrong or that you have bad taste. It doesn't even mean those films are objectively bad. You don't like The Last Jedi and it was well received by critics and it had excellent audience scores. None of that matters if you didn't like it.
     
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  8. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    So why did you assume I'm being objective in my assessment of the dialogue being written poorly? I found it poor. I cited examples. I explained why. You disagreed. I explained further. You then brought up the whole "objective" thing, which I never brought up anywhere.

    And here we are.
     
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  9. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Most people - especially among the casual fans - just didn't like TLJ. The franchise has suffered for it over the past 18 months or so, but I feel things are back on the right track.
     
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  10. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    I honestly don't care how many people like it---that's not indicative of its quality at all. The Michael Bay Transformers films got the bulk of their praise and financial success from audiences in China, the population of which dwarfs other cinema markets like the US and Europe, so numerically speaking, those films have objectively more people who like them than hate them.

    But that doesn't change their quality or merit as films.
     
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  11. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    Let's go, Chrome Dome!
     
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  12. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Yeah I completely forgot about this line. This one was as bad as they get.
     
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  14. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    It felt like a Ninja Turtles line. I...kind of don't mind it, in the 'It's so dumb it's actually good?!' way. I think Boyega is a Ninja or 'Hero' Turtles fan as they were called in the U.K. for a time.
     
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  15. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    He grew up watching Return of the Jedi on VHS repeatedly like I did, and definitely brings that punchy 80s vibe to Finn.

    I think the sequel trilogy would be significantly weaker without his acting.
     
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  16. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    They were called "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles" in the UK, because the BBC showed it at a very kid friendly time in the late afterrnoon time slot on BBC1.

    In the 80s and 90s, all BBC kids shows were shown on BBC1 afternoons and the weekend mornings. The seperate CBBC channels did not begin until 11 February 2002, so the TMHT was shown on regular BBC1 instead.

    "Ninja" was dropped from the title as it was considered too aggressive for children, and was swapped for "Hero" instead. Even the title song was re-done:

    BBC "Hero" version titles:
     
    #5896 SKB, Jul 10, 2019
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  17. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I know there is a thread regarding 'skipping TLJ' and just recognizing Episode 7 & 9, but I wanted to delve deeper into it here. I was talking to a friend the other night (he probably hates TLJ more than me), and I asked him, "If Episode 9 is good, can we just skip Episode 8?" He still says no and gave the various reasons why that I can't argue with because they are good points.

    But I played Devil's Advocate. I told him what if Episode 8 was somewhat like what happened between Episode 1 and 2. There is a 10 year jump from Episode 1 and 2 so when we see Old Anakin/Obiwan on that elevator, ALOT has happened between movies. We never see Anakin go through the Jedi training, we never see Palpatine ascend to Chancellor, and we never see what happens with the whole Clones and who ordered them. We don't see Dooku leaving the Jedi order either.

    What if Episode 8 happened, but it doesn't exist in a movie context? So we end TFA and we go right to The Rise of Skywalker, as I believe it is a few years timejump? We see that Snoke and Luke have died off screen, Kylo Ren is the Supreme Leader, and Rey is building a new Jedi Academy. What we never see again is Luke flipping the Lightsaber, or Snoke dying like a b**ch, or Leia flying, and Holdo never existed. My point is that all of the little moments don't exist in the canon that many of us feel ruined the characters, so we can just take the Rise of Skywalker (just like we did with Attack of Clones) as stuff that happened off screen that gets us up to speed for the story.

    The old machete order for many fans was 4,5,2,3,6 (They vanquished TPM from their canon). Why can't an updated machete order be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9? lol
     
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  18. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    I destroyed my Episode 7 bluray and poster after seeing Episode 8.
    I've never watched Episode 8 again since the cinema visit in December 2017, and didn't buy its bluray or any merch.
    The new characters from Episode 7 and those from the OT have been totally ruined by Episode 8 to make me never see Episode 9.

    1,2,3,4,5,6 are my canon.

    Only six there are. No more, no less. (yoda 2)
     
    #5898 SKB, Jul 10, 2019
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  19. TrumanJ

    TrumanJ Rebel Official

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    I applaud your idea of just not counting ep. viii. Unfortunately I can’t just skip viii. This was supposed to be the skywalker saga. We barely seen skywalker in vii. And we’ll probably only see him for about as much time in IX as in vii. Any way you try to explain the ST, it’s not apart of the skywalker saga in my opinion.

    Basically, I’ve decided to just not count any of the ST as canon. I’m forgetting it even happened. I’ll wait for the new movies and stories to decide whether I’ll continue to be a fan of Star Wars. I’ll always enjoy 1-6, R1 and Solo as great films/stories and I’ll continue to reread to EU books. But I cannot accept these films as being apart of the skywalker saga.

    I’m currently re-reading the book Ascension in the fate of the Jedi series. Sure there are some questionable things that happen in these books. But I don’t expect perfection. I didn’t expect perfection with the ST. But I did expect these movies to not be a rush job.

    By the way, I like TPM.

    Also, Have the midiclorian haters come up with a better way to explain how some individuals have more force abilities/strengths than others?
     
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  20. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    I've never really been bothered about the whole Midichlorians thing as it makes logical sense to me, the Force powers have to come from somewhere. If its not man-made, technological or spiritual (ie, "Magic"), then it has to be a biological thing.
     
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