THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...alker-cant-retcon-the-last-jedi/#74b4f8af6ca9


This is an article just published by Scott Mendelson from Forbes talking about how Episode 9 should not retcon TLJ. Now I have no problem with that premise, even if I don't like the decisions made regarding TLJ character arcs. What I take issue with his article (and by the Media, Disney and the Pro-TLJ crowd) is blaming us for not liking it with our wild theories.

For example, he says it is our fault (the internet) for speculating about Rey's parentage, and JJ/Disney never threw that mystery box out there in that way. That is total BS, as they had The Skywalker Saber call to Rey in TFA? That would leave many to speculate that Anakin/Luke's saber calling to Rey only, COULD make her another Skywalker? Again, it doesn't mean it has to be, but the movie clearly leads you in that direction. The 2nd TFA Trailer has Luke Narrating it, "My father has that power, my sister has that power, you have that power too!" Again, one could speculate that he mentioned his father and sister, he could be talking to another Skywalker?

The 2nd issue I take with him in the article is he says that Grumpy Luke was the only logical outcome for TLJ, as it blames us for being wrong that we wanted a Luke more like ROTJ. Again, I have no problem if he says that he likes Grumpy Luke, but don't blame the fans because we got something drastically different which NOBODY even speculated about after TFA.

This is why I was always bothered by the Pro-TLJ crowd is they just didn't defend the movie by saying what they liked and leaving it at that. I am never going to call out a person for liking a movie because it's all an opinion. But I will call them out when I get called out for supposedly being wrong about TLJ and it was my fault for speculating about something that JJ specifically set up to be speculated about!

 

While I agree that it's very silly to put the blame on fans for not liking the film. A lot of reasons are legitimate, even if I disagree with many of them... I really do agree with him when he says that Grumpy Luke was the only logical outcome. Well, firstly, even though I know he's been given the "Grumpy" label, it's off base imo, it's far more than that. But even then, I think TFA prepared us quite well for the version of Luke that we eventually got in TLJ. I never expected him to greet Rey with open arms. Luke disappeared, he left his family, everything behind him. For him to act any other way than what he did in the film wouldn't make sense, at least in my opinion.

 

I think Grumpy Luke was a possible outcome, but not the only possible outcome. I was expecting ‘Plan B’ Luke in TLJ (which Mark Hamill expected too). meaning something bad happened, but he had another strategy. That is no different than ROTJ when everyone in 1983 saying that ‘killing Vader’ was the only option. Luke has a plan b to redeem him. That’s what make his character so great is he thinks outside the box.

Again, I get annoyed by this ‘only option’ as that’s not fair to the viewer cause we all see things differently. Another example is saying the ESB twist in 1980 was the only option. It turned out to be a great option, but there were other options Lucas could have taken the Saga.

I just don’t like putting the blame on the fans with these mandatory outcomes, and it’s their fault for not thinking like that. I want to reiterate I have no problem with anyone who likes the film, but I resent that people say it’s my fault for speculating wrong or even speculating at all when a plot point is left wide open like that.

 

Grumpy Luke could have been amazing it just wasn't good enough on the point of delivery. The execution was infantile, the segway between the OT and TFA was simply not effective enough in fact ignored. Grumpy Luke is actually a good starting point but then you mix in stupid scenes like the throwing away the lightsaber and milking the siren. Followed by throwing Luke under the bus to facilitate sympathetic Kylo. It just pulls down the fences and the heart and soul of the ot. The film could have been so much better.

Also a lot of people delighting in the KoR comic news from yesterday. That story should not be in a comic. It should have been in the TLJ. In fact am quite bitter about that fact and basically why am not impressed with this news. They should of been right there in TLJ. A decision lost upon me.

 

Also, some of the information in the Aftermath series should of been in TFA such as the explanation of the state of the galaxy.

 

But hey, instead of all that wordy world building crap we got the amazing Holdo and the super duper fantastic Canto Bight!!!! You manbabies just don't get how awesome and smart RJ is. LMAO

Seriously though, I've said it before and I'll say it again. In a vacuum, grumpy Luke is ok. I in fact love the idea of world-weary and war-torn Luke. I wouldn't expect him to be the bright eyed naive guy he was in IV. VII is 30 years later. At 48 I know I'm not the same guy I was at 18. However, the explanation is for why he is the way he is is threadbare at best. Childish and verging on non-existent at the worst. The humor, as @p03 points out, is just horrible. And now that I've seen the trailer for Knives Out, I really think RJ is in over his head. That trailer has more of the same ridiculous humor (Chris Evans just yelling out the same curse word over and over????). The tone of the film is all over the place (sound familiar)?

Anyway, here is an article about how JJ is trying to fix what RJ mucked up. Take it with a grain of salt, but I too have run into no one who likes VIII. My campus has a squad of us teachers who are Star Wars freaks, and none of us likes it. As for my students last year, same deal. None of them likes it and none of them is excited about IX. They all thought the Last Jedi was crappy. And look, I know there are those of you who do like TLJ. Good, I'm happy for you. I despise it and you won't change my mind, so no use trying to convince me it is really good. Thanks.

https://cosmicbook.news/star-wars-new-hope-rise-skywalker

 

This!!! All of this. Just say you like it, let's not engage in obvious logical fallacies (such as false dilemma) where the option on the screen was the only one possible. Grumpy Luke was possible, really any Luke they imagined was possible, but they are not absolved of the obligation to do the leg work to flesh out the story and decisions that got him there that was consistent within the anthology.

As for the speculation, they don't have a leg to stand on. I would argue that they teased certain ideas, Rey's parentage, Phasma's relevance, Finn's FS, they were perfectly happy to have that rampant social media speculation serve as buzz and free marketing for the film. They could have shut down speculation any time they wanted, they didn't because it served their purposes to HAVE people make those speculations. Their problem was that they under delivered (and apparently still haven't owned it). I'd bet Ft. Knox that if they had answers for Rey's parentage that were better than the speculation, no one would have complained. THEY did this to themselves.

I'm still trying to imagine any other company selling a product, claiming the problem with the product was customer expectations. Imagine selling a software bundle, or a laptop, or a t.v. and suggesting that customer dissatisfaction was not an indicator of a problem with their product, but rather an issue with customer expectations driven by YOUR own marketing campaign. LOL. Surreal.

 

The irony is that they are doing it again regarding the expectations game for TROS. Kevin Smith (who is good friends with JJ and visited the set) said that the ending of the film will blow your mind. How does that not set up a huge expectation for the fans? That is a major statement cause it could mean so many things that cause fans to speculate. Is it a twist ending like 'The Sixth Sense?' Is it something that will tie all 9 movies together, as one of the PT characters come back? Is the last shot about Luke? Kylo Ren? Palpatine? Rey?

Disney wants it both ways in that they create the mystery boxes and expectations game to keep fans interested between movies, which is perfectly fine as that is no different than the NBA offseason this year and the fans speculating where Kwai Leonard, Durant, and Kyrie Irving were headed for Free Agency? But you can't scold the fans when you set something up, and it ends up being anti-climatic or isn't popular.

JJ never had to say that TROS will tie up all 9 movies, as that sets up a huge expectation for fans. In fact, most of the fans that like the PT, hate the ST, and vice versa. I honestly don't know many people who clamor for all 9 movies to tie together, as most people would simply like the ST to tie together first.

 

I didn't have a problem with grumpy Luke, I just find they didn't execute it properly. Other options were a Zen Luke that simply withdrew from the world, similar to TLJ, but lacking the bitterness and being more of a pacifist... like refusing to use his lightsaber against Palpatine in RotJ. I expected something in between those 2. What we got was a caricature of what could have been. It wasn't well thought out, at least imo and most of us here in this thread. Now, not hitting on the mark on a side story is fine if the main story is solid... not ideal, but livable... but in this case they failed on both the main (Luke, Kylo, Rey) then again on the side stories (Poe, Leia, Holdo and Finn, Rose, Canto Bight). That's not to say they didn't hit on a scene here or there, or get some near misses, but so much of it was just bad for me that the movie as a whole is just a failure. We've seen some of this with the PT a lot, but it seems GL managed to get more near misses than the ST (instead of complete misses), TLJ specifically did. Some of the misses are complete whiffs imo... which for me, when evaluating the movie, is the only opinion that matters.

All that being said, I don't mind listening to other opinions on the movie, taking in different perspectives. I think what will always drag down TLJ for me is the memory of how I felt walking out of theaters. I felt trolled, and this from a guy who didn't have a whole lot of expectations in where the story would go. I avoided previews leading up so I could take it in without any idea of where the story will go. I'm not saying I didn't expect anything in general, it's SW so some things are always expected... lightsaber fights, blasters, space battles, moral dilemmas (for which TLJ and the ST has immense potential) ect... but it was all pretty general stuff.

I think a cool arc they could have done with Luke would have been pacifist Zen Luke. Show Rey's frustration at not being able to convince Luke to join the fight, then Luke rebuke and train her in the Jedi way for her loss of control and fall into dismay, moving toward anger and the dark path. Luke could have still been "wrong" to not join and help, but it likely would not have taken such a drastic move on Yoda's part (and bending of canon by introducing FG call lightning) to convince him that maybe he had taken his pacifism to an extreme by Yoda, in conversation.

I didn't have that expectation going in, to be clear, but it could have worked just as, if not more effectively, and likely not have irked a portion of the fan base. Again, grumpy Luke works, but it requires a more drastic explanation, and I feel they didn't execute on that backstory in a convincing way. Yes, the story is about Rey and Finn and Kylo, but Luke needs to act like Luke and not a wholly new character, unless you deliver the backstory to make that wholly new Luke believable. I'll never feel RJ executed that part of the story on TLJ alone. It's possible they come up with side stories to explain Luke, but unfortunately, I'll likely never read them and their retcons. I just can't wait until the ST is over and lessons are learned moving forward into other SW stories.

 

I still contend if you are going to radically change Luke's character from ROTJ (which is believable as we all change) than the fanbase deserves more than 3 flashbacks to show that progression. You can take out the whole Canto Bight subplot, and streamline the First Order/Resistance chase, and than tell us the story of how Luke came to be where he is at now.

Show us the 'Good Luke' training Ben Solo, even Han/Leia dropping him off and maybe Han or Leia having their reservations. Show something in there that made Luke see the evil in Ben Solo, so we understand why he ignited that saber in that one moment that changed the galaxy. Instead we just get grumpy Luke the whole movie, and it is jarring after we last left him as multiple flashbacks would have shown the transition to where he was at when Rey encounters him in TFA.

It was a bigged missed opportunity because it created the divide in the fandom: Some bought that radical change in Luke, and others didn't and I guarantee if we get a movie of Luke's transition to angry Luke (seeing good ol Luke in a few scenes), it would have worked for many fans like us. Instead we just get grumpy Luke for 2 hours.

 

Absolute rubbish, you stated for months that due to TLJ you weren't going to watch Solo - and low and behold you saw it opening day.

You can type these things but it's nonsense at the end of the day isn't it.

 

Mark Hamill needs to take more responsibility with how Luke turned out.. because he had a lot of leverage when you think about it. He could have insisted on greenlighting the script and all of his lines of dialogue before agreeing to film. He and Carrie should have demanded a solid outline for the films they were to be most involved in.

Do people really think Disney would have halted production, if he refused to deliver lines of dialogue such as:

"I came to this island to die."

"It's time for the Jedi, to end."

"And I was left with shame."

?

Would Bob Iger have been annoyed at Mark over that? Nope, Bob probably would have insisted on a rewrite and delayed the film if Mark and Carrie protested enough.

Part of the problem here.. was Mark's lazy and irresponsible attitude to the treatment of Luke. He presumed the writers would get his character 100% correct. I just find it ridiculous that he's bashed the direction of this trilogy, when he didn't do much to protest at the time.

 

Mark Hamill DID fundamentally disagree with Rian Johnson about Luke's character during production of TLJ. You can see this in the BTS called "The Director and the Jedi". But in the end it's not his character to write.

 

More like, Protector of the SITH... hehe. Have a great day fellow JEDI.

PEACE is a lie, there is only PASSION.

There is no EMOTION, there is PEACE.

There is PASSION, yet PEACE.

There is SERENITY, yet EMOTION.

There is CHAOS, yet ORDER.

There is no CHAOS, There is HARMONY...

 

John Boyega: "I have to say, I hate [Rian Johnson's] playlist on his iPhone. He has the country version to every great hip-hop song ever made and I don't understand where he got that from. It's treachery. It's blasphemous." (August 5, 2017)

Boyega may not have put one and one together at the time, but The Last Jedi is like a country music cover of a great hip hop song. It explains a lot.

 

@Grand Admiral Kraum this.

I wouldn't want Mark writing the story, as much as I love him as an actor. Actors need to trust in the directors, writers and producers ect... their job is not to do rewrites or criticize the writing. As much as I don't see a problem with a long time actor like Mark disagreeing with the depiction of a long time character, in the end he has to bend the knee and trust those leading the show know what they're doing and are doing it well. If it passes all the layers of scrutiny before it gets taped, and then trust the edit, then the fault is not his, it's theirs. He can speak out, which he did, but if they're not humble enough to listen then there isn't any more he can do. That's not his job. Stating that it is, is absolving the others of their fault in a small way by blaming Mark in a share, and I do not agree with that in any way. As far as I can tell, Mark did everything he can reasonably do, and probably a good deal more.

The only thing Mark could have done more is denounce the movie entirely and that's ridiculous to expect of him.

He played his role in the movie and played it exceedingly well. As in, he portrayed exactly what RJ and company wanted him to portray. As a fan, you can't ask for more than that from an actor, he did his job, he did what he was paid for. If you have a problem with the direction, the writing, lack of back story, scene choice, dialogue ect... the problem lies elsewhere from Mark.

 

Furthermore he would have had a terrible story in his mind. An all powerful and perfect Luke Skywalker. No thanks, I already got OP Luke in the old EU.

 

Should he write the story? No. But moviemaking is a collaborative art. I have no problem with actors having input on their own characters, especially in situations where the character and actor are so intertwined.

No, they kinda don't, especially when the directors, writers and producers did as bad of a job as they did in E8.

If the actors mindlessly followed Lucas when making Star Wars, things would have been a lot different. It would not have been nearly as good.

 

Unless if I'm mistaken, I believe that I read that the OT characters didn't feel that IV was very good, and it got saved in the edit. To the actors it seemed to be a hot mess. They did their job to the best of their ability and then GL saved it in the edit and made them all stars.

I agree with you on VIII, but the actors should do the best they can, offer some input, but more or less just do their job and allow others to do theirs. GL gets the credit for the edit, and the actors get the credit for their part. In VIII, I can still appreciate Mark's performance, even if I have issues with the direction. I don't fault MH for that, I fault RJ and co.

So I stand by my statement, though I think we probably agree more than disagree. I truly dislike TLJ, but that fault falls on KK on down, MH offered all the input he reasonably could, short of walking away from the movie or refusing to film it. I guess he could have went that far, but I'm not sure how his contract was structured, maybe that wasn't a viable option, assuming he felt that strongly about it. Or maybe he remembered how he felt about ANH and remembered that trusting in GL made his career and hoped for the same result.