THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

That's what bothers you the most about this film? I think there is plenty of time in episode IX for Rey and Finn to share more screen time, I don't see the problem.

 

I am truly hoping this is just you being a bit melodramatic. If not, well, I am sorry you feel that way. I could tell you a story about Star Wars and how much it means to me but then I figure the most of the people who hate TLJ but supposedly love all other things SW would dismiss or bash in some way. To each his own though and I wish you the best in the future.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 16, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 16, 2017 ---

Actually yes I would. Thanks for assuming though.

 

The problem as I see it is this whole revisionist era that we live in. Marvel has gone through it, Battle Star Galactica went through it, and now Star Wars is going through it. Marvel had the whole race thing; taking black actors and giving them to what were known to be white characters. That scenario was shut down because of race guilt; meaning the white critics grudgingly accepted the changes and quietened down because of the sensitivity of the race topic.

Battlestar Galactica had the revisionist problem of modern reinterpretation to the original fans but that was grudgingly accepted because they were a minority and enough time had passed without Battlestar Galactica being in the cultural consciousness, so there was a broad disconnect for many fans with the original tone that made the new version far more acceptable and easier to swallow for all. Galactica also was never a big enough franchise to begin with so the backlash wasn't as vocal.

Now Star Wars is another beast entirely. This behemoth has been in the public consciousness since it's 1977 release and has never left. Kids from the first generation have become parents and they in turn show it to their own kids as a right of passage to modern culture. The revisionist play on the story could never be expected to go down well with such an entrenched cultural phenomenon as what it stands for is deeply rooted with the original fan base, and many subsequent generations who were kids in the eighties and early nineties, you know, when revisionist culture hadn't yet become a "thing".

So what is this revisionist trend leaning toward? The gritty, psychological realism and pessimism of our times. Everything must be, for lack of a better phrase, (Game Of Thrones-ified) for modern audiences to appreciate it.

So that's what this scenario boils down to. Does the Star Wars fandom want Star Wars to be GOTsified or updated like Battlestar Galactica? Or do they want the original high minded good versus evil mindset to endure?

I wonder, yet this problem could be put to Lord Of The Rings. Tolkien wrote that as his own commentary on good and evil in fantasy but his modern equivalent, George R R Martin has his A Song Of Fire & Ice as his own modern take on the subject. They are two different beasts that basically explore the same issues and themes. The first from the high minded epic black and white standpoint and the latter via the grim and gritty realism of the modern age.

I think a scenario that works better is to have separate works that speak to us differently but essentially tell the same story. I say this because I could never see
LOTR fans accepting a version of LOTR that has been GOTsified. Tolkien's work is way too entrenched in the fans psyche for it to be chopped and changed to meet the requisites of the grim and gritty modern way of thinking. It's to be expected.

So with Star Wars that problem has now come to the fore and how fans deal with it shall be interesting. Both sides have legitimate points of view.

 

The Maz Kanata scene was... embarrassing. I agree.

 

Exactly.

 

Another thing I hated in this movie was the editing. Can RJ let a scene actually play out as everytime something started to get developed and get interesting, it’s cuts to another part of the movie.

 

I remembered some things that either don't fit the saga or were just goofy: the slow mo fight scene stuff with Luke pulling a Neo, voice overs (Rey recounting what happened in the pointless hall of mirrors), flashbacks, "bastard", "God speed", BB8's convenient coin machine gun

 

That felt so out of place, to be honest. It felt like it was done so that little children could understand what was happening. Would be so much better with no voice over, so that the viewer would have to figure out things themselves.

 

God speed? What do you mean with this?

 

Like the scene between Kylo and "Luke". It just freezed, it seems, like in a bad soap opera.

 

Agree on most of those minor things but I liked BB-8 coin machine gun. That alien kept putting coins into him in the casino and so that was BB-8's chance to vent. The old movies have stupid stuff like that too.

They used Luke like M. Night Shyamalan would use Luke, too. Plus he was Neo.

 

I think this is without doubt the most disappointing Star Wars I've seen. Rubbish plot development, Some terrible storylines and horrendous dialogue.

1. Leia flying in space was so bad it was hilarious.
2. Snoke - he's powerful enough to create a connection between Rey and Kylo but not enough to sense Kylo might kill him.
3. Kylo - his character lacks any direction and essentially goes in a circle.
4. Finn - what a way to ruin the best character from TFA.

 

This is the only reaction from the audience I saw the movie with, and it was utter groans as I stood there in disblelief.

Snoke kind of sums up why this movie is a total piece of s**t. There is this huge buildup of him in TFA, and we're all just waiting for some backround on the guy, and we get absolutely nothing and then he dies easier then Boba Fett? That whole sequence with Rey/Snoke/Kylo is a total knockoff to ROTJ Throne Room Scene, but this was like watching Spaceballs.

Rey and Kylo were a breath of fresh air in TFA, as I was actually interested in their story just as much as I was with Luke. Rey and Kylo were so mishandled in TLJ that they seemed like an afterthought (especially Rey). By the end of the movie, it became about the First Order vs The Resistance and that is not what SW is about. SW is a character study and we are supposed to get inside these characters and feel their struggles, and nothing gets developed about these 2 main leads that makes me remotely care about Episode 9.

 

And he did that at the end of the TLJ.

Rian Johnson has seen all the movies and was a huge fan growing up. I can't stand when people say he should have seen the OT--it just makes their arguments/analysis fall flat.

Vader wasn't seen as a complicated character until ROTJ. Ben Solo was already a complicated character in TFA and even moreso in TLJ (for not blasting away his mom and for saving Rey's life). I think you got the two villains switched. Also, when people get older, they change, and oftentimes they get disillusioned with the world. It happens a lot. But he still saved his friends at the end of TLJ. Like you mentioned, that's what Luke does! I hope you didn't walk out of the theater before the ending.

You complained that Luke should have fought for his nephew from the get-go, yet you thought they did a good job of having him run away into exile? Which one is it? I think I see some contradiction here.

RJ didn't use that opportunity for Luke to kill Snoke because it would have been boring. "Luke kills Snoke and saves the day, who'da thought?!" Luke didn't even save the day in ROTJ and no one complained.

I can understand how people disliked how Snoke was shooed away so quickly. However, what I cannot understand is people complaining about not knowing his backstory. "I was trained by a Sith a long time ago and killed him, took some damage to the face, and went in hiding for a long time until I found Kylo Ren." Boom. Who cares, right? What was Palpatine's backstory in the OT? Did anyone complain? Nope. Yeah, I get killing off Snoke so easily made him seem not as formidable as he was in TFA, and keeping him alive would have made for an epic showdown in IX. But that would just lead to a rehash of ROTJ. Nobody wants that, especially after the backlash from TFA "copying" ANH. Perhaps Snoke was done away so early so we can see Kylo Ren power up in Episode IX???

This is understandable. It wasn't a strength of the movie, but I wouldn't say it was pointless. It helped established the very end of TLJ and the future of the franchise when we see the kid force grab the broom. This essentially gives birth to a new era of Jedi (or I guess "force-users" now).

Although, the one thing I don't understand is Finn walking around FO territory without a mask or anything to cover his face, LOL. I mean come on, but I digress.

Eh, could go either way, like the force facetiming. Personally, I thought they were new and interesting instead of the same old, same old. At least they don't actually teleport, which would really be too much change.

Which begs the question, why is there no teleportation at all in Star Wars? Hmm...

You're comparing the best of one scenario to the worst of another. TLJ had amazing and beautiful visuals too. Maybe not quite as much action, but what we had was pretty awesome. Too much action and we'd have too little of a story, kinda like Mad Max. But nobody is complaining. Also, Max and Furiosa had a bunch of arguments, with plenty of awkward moments and cheap laughs to boot (not being able to start the car, removing too many guns, etc). No, Poe and Holdo never really redeemed their relationship the way Max and Furiosa did, but I mean we are talking about two side characters whose fractured relationship we couldn't care less about.

Did anyone tell George Lucas to f*ck off when Luke bonded with Darth Vader? I don't see how that's a problem. Characters change. Characters develop. Characters have conflict. People complained Rey was a Mary Jade, so finally we see glimpses of her actually not being one and people are still complaining. Heck, most people wouldn't complain if Rey jumped full on to the dark side, so her simply "bonding" with Kylo really shouldn't be an issue. I guess most people just didn't expect it.

I'm sorry, that's just boring and predictable. No one wants that.

And again, as someone mentioned earlier, it's not about parentage that makes you who you are. It's about what you do and the choices you make moving forward that determines who you are and what will become of the galaxy. "It is your destiny," right? That was the whole point of the movie. Who was Darth Vader's mom's parents? Some people are born into it; some people are not. The Force "flows." It is not static, nor is there only one particular way to have it or wield it.

Then what would you call R2D2 after saving the Rebellion 3,796 times over the span of 8 consecutive movies?

Which actually begs the question, why risk your lives finding the code breaker or whoever when you have freakin' R2 that can crack anything?!

He doesn't have to show them in Episode VIII.

They weren't planning on harming the walkers IIRC; they were planning on taking out the cannon. And remember, the group was led by Poe who for the entire movie (and TFA) fights bad guys head-on, for better or worse. That's who Poe is. Also, I don't think they knew Luke Skywalker was coming, though I'm not 100% certain on this, so I'll have to watch it again. If they did, they used those junk ships to at least stall for time before Luke would show up.

I think the biggest problem that I see in this thread (and not pointing at anyone in particular at all, but just from the feeling I'm getting from everyone collectively), is that for the last two years, many fans have conjured up this idea of how their ideal Episode VIII should play out, and essentially already filmed it in their heads and replayed it over and over and over. Most of these imaginary scenarios are very similar because of how homogenized the internet can make us when we all read all the same ideas. It's become the widespread norm to expect X, Y, and Z to happen. But when there's a deviation and something plays out differently than what they thought, they get mad and think, "This isn't what I thought it was going to be, so I don't like it!" and they make up every single excuse in the book to wall off themselves so they can live in their own self-justified anger. It's really a shame because this movie was beautifully written and filmed (ask Mark Hamill, no, not the Mark Hamill that didn't like the script initially, but the Mark Hamill that said, "And it took me a while to get around to his way of thinking, but once I was there it was a thrilling experience. I hope it will be for the audience too. Rian Johnson is an amazing filmmaker.") The visuals were stunning, but what was more impressive was that even though some of the characters seemed like they had less screen time than in TFA, they had so much more character depth (well except Snoke lol). It's not just good vs bad, light vs dark, Jedi vs Sith. That's not how the force works! Almost every character had inner demons to battle with, a past to leave behind ("let the past die"), and a hope to hold onto for the future. Every major character came away stronger with a better sense of what to make of their lives and with a better understanding/realization of the galaxy.

Rian Johnson brought life to these characters in a way that JJ Abrams really couldn't, in a way that the audience can relate to. That's what made this movie so wonderful and powerful, to go along with its incredible visuals, cool action sequences, and great acting all-around, especially from the great Mark Hamill. I can't wait to see what Episode IX holds as well as Rian Johnson's new planned trilogy.

 

I respectfully disagree because I loved TFA and that story played out in a way that I didn't expect. I was not expecting to the Big 3 to be in tatters in Episode 7, I was not expecting Luke Skywalker to be in isolation and only be in the movie for 5 minutes. I was expecting Leia to be a force user like Luke, and she was just a General in TFA. And you know what? I loved the movie, because the new characters were great, and in the end I had no problem with where JJ took the Big 3.

TLJ doesn't fail for me because what I expected to happen, TLJ fails for me because essentially nothing happens with the characters that makes me care to see Episode 9.

The whole Throne Room scene was taken straight from ROTJ. Kylo brings Rey up on an elevator where Snoke is sitting there on his throne with Red Guards flanked beside him. He removes the chains from Rey, and then tries to turn her. She tries to kill him and then Kylo Ren kills Snoke (too easily). Geez, where have I seen that whole scenario play out???? Um, in 1983!!

The whole Luke/Rey part was so intriguing from the setup in TFA as I figured this would be the shining moments of the movie. RJ doesn't let any of these scenes play out as everytime it builds to any drama, any tension, he cuts back to the bloated Finn/Rose subplot (which essentially turns out to be the main plot of the movie, but I will get to that later).

And then RJ just throws these random scenes in there that are just eye rollers. What was up with shirtless Adam Driver? People utterly groaned in the theater. What was up with the lame Yoda cameo, as how come Yoda didn't sense Luke in TFA as he just pops up out of nowhere? And I don't have a problem with Random Rey, I have a problem that is was a throwaway scene with throwaway dialogue. Kylo Ren just says it and that's it, cause we need to get back to more Finn/Rose!

Which leads me to the biggest problem of the movie: 2 1/2 is a bloated time, just like so many blockbusters these day. Star Wars, Jaws, Raiders, Back to the Future, ET all come in at a nice 2 hours and there is no bloat in any of those movies. This isn't the Godfather, blockbuster movies are all about pacing and keep things moving while giving time for smaller scenes to play out. The movie spends WAY too much time on Finn/Rose and Poe/Laura Dern/Leia, while they make Rey essentially a forgotten character in the movie???? The movie and trilogy is about Rey/Kylo Ren, and Snoke/Luke are driving the story and drama to flesh them out even more, and they all get overshadowed by the Resistance vs First Order plotline.

I had no idea how this movie would play out as I stayed away spoilers, so I was open to anything. But nobody waited 2 years to see Finn/Rose running around trying to figure out how to help the Resistance avoid The First Order.

 

I think people are over complicating this in their analysis of why people hated the film.

What did or did not happen in terms of the 'star wars' story line is neither here nor there for me.

This at the end of the day was a very poorly written and made film. It was amateurish rubbish. It was a school play in space.

I get the feeling at the moment people are forcing themselves to like it. Once everything has calmed down a lot will change their mind and this will be seen as the worse SW film.

 

No offence but as good as a movie half of you think it is, I still believe it could have been a lot better. The way the movie is executed, it felt really messy. Yes, this movie might be as good as The Empire Strikes Back, or even better to quite a number of us but for it to be a masterpiece, it has to be universally acclaimed and be satisfying to all layers of the fanbase. Plus, we are giving RJ a trilogy, so it better please the fans at least in a certain degree. I felt it wasn't executed well enough, as it doesn't have the feeling I had during TFA. I know, I don't want the same thing all the time, but it can be good and better in a different way, to place it differently. To be honest, I don't think this is the story Rian Johnson wrote ; I think they had to cut too much parts as it was actually over 4 hours long in its assembly cut. I'll be waiting for the blu ray disc together with Rian's commentary to explain the actions they took with the film.

My opinion from now until December 20 2019 regarding this film might not be too positive nor negative, and I will still be critical regarding this film, but I am hoping Episode IX will make things clearer and lift up our perception regarding TFA and TLJ. I enjoyed TFA a lot, and hoping to enjoy TLJ with more viewings. It was different, but I believe it could have been so much better. I still have hope, I will, and I hope I am strong enough to have this hope in me for the next actions they take.

 

Also the whole mutiny subplot is weird. Poe overthrows Holdo, Leia overthrows Poe. Then Leia and Holdo sort of laugh it off before Holdo goes and kills herself.

 

Where they dropped the ball is that it could have been a battle for who is the future leader of the Resistance. I understand they filmed the movie not knowing Carrie Fisher would pass away, but the power struggle between the two factions (Young people like Poe and Carrie Fishers daughter vs Old Guard/Laura Dern) would have been interesting. You could have had two ideas that shaped the future of the resistance but it was all over the place, and it just came off as bad.

 

That was ridiculous beyond imagination.
Leia demotes Poe, because he refused to obey orders.
But when he puts in place a mutiny ... nothing.
Not a single word of blame to him but...
first Leia and Holdo admitting they like him, then like two
silly Vhlor they explain they had a plan. End of the story?
Not really... now Leia is convinced that he can lead the Resistance ("follow him").
WTF????