THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Sweet.

 

Reminds me of the scene where Snoke tells Kylo to get rid of his "ridiculous" mask.

 

Yeah my nephew missed that line yesterday because he was too busy telling me he couldn't understand what Kylo was saying!

Fair enough! Where I (and maybe Lucasfilm) went wrong was assuming that a film pandering to different fan expectations within the one story would free us to focus on the aspects that spoke to our expectations most and overlook or adjust to what didn't. It seems it's not that easy in reality.

I totally get why many viewers are left confused or with their expectations shattered - particularly those who hold SW close to their heart and have strong views about the characters.

I guess I'm just fortunate I didn't feel too strongly either way. I plan on applying a DJ philosophy to fan speculations for Ep 9 - "don't join, live free!"

 

There's some hilarious stuff online sending up RJ and TLJ. Here's one that had me chuckling:

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 13, 2018 ---

Speaking of which

 

pretty much ignored the strong elements of TFA and instead solidified the parts people didnt like it about TFA in stone....literally. It is better than TFA, but it is less likable than TFA


not to mention TFA being better structured overall as a screenplay

 

The note should just be, "My Story Sucks", or "My Movie Sucks".

 

I'm gonna steal this quote from a member over at TheForce.net forums:

It's very much a social media driven movie I think.

Scenes like Luke dusting off his shirt seem to exist just to make sassy Luke gifs for twitter/tumblr.

 

Maybe, but what else would you have him do to show the laser blasts didn't phase him? Sometimes body language and gestures (Threepio wink, his nod at Leia) are more powerful because it doesn't require words.

 

I don't think you need to show a reaction to everything. To simply see him walking out of the dust completely unscratched would have been enough.

But people laughed in the theatre, so I guess that means it's a good scene.

 

I found it funny. I also found it even more amusing once he was revealed to not actually be there.

I’m curious to what people who complain about Luke actually wanted him to be like. Do they like him in the computer games where he just flatly delivers lines about the force and rather easily dispatches his enemies? Do they want him to be exactly as we found him in ROTJ without any change to his character? I’m amazed that people complain about Luke in this movie.

 

I like the basic concept of Luke being a hermit on an island, having lost faith in the Jedi. I had no problems with this. This was a very fascinating setup that could have been explored further. I think what people are mostly having a problem with was the eventual execution of this concept. TFA set things up pretty good, but TLJ threw all of that away and made the plot and Luke's character make no sense.

Even so, would it really have been a problem if he was just a paragon character in the ST? After all, its not his story anymore. TLJ took away focus from Rey and made it seem like Luke was the main character again.

 

It wouldn’t have worked. Firstly if he wasn’t cut off from the Force there wouldn’t be a good enough reason for him not to come to leia’s (and Han’s) aid in TFA. Secondly, there would’ve been no role for Rey.

They had to provide a reason for him being exiled and then create a situation where we get to see him in all his glory but it being a sacrificial act.

 

You simply can’t have Luke just be a paragon character. He’s Luke freaking Skywalker. We needed him to have a mission that the new characters can continue. If he’s there giving advice, you would keep asking, “why the hell isnt Luke kicking ass?”

Now with him as a force ghost, he can still be in contact and advise, but we won’t be asking “why isn’t he fighting?”
This arc allowed him to redeem himself and allow the new characters to continue on their journey. It checks all the boxes for me.
Was he interesting? Yes.
Was he different? Yes.
Was he heroic? Yes.
Was he funny? Yes.
Was he human? Yes.
Did he use the force in the most powerful way possible? Yes.
Did he use the force in a new way? Yes.
Did he teach us new things about the force? Yes.
Did he acknowledge the failures of the PT Jedi? Yes.
Did he have a good reason to exile himself in his mind? Yes.
Did he provide hope in the end? Yes.

 

I didn't say anything negative about him being cut off from the Force. As I said, the concept of Luke being a hermit and having lost faith in the Jedi is something that I was excited about.

Besides, I said that TFA set things up pretty good. That doesn't mean it was a great setup. I still think Luke's entrance should have been at Starkiller Base, but that's out of the point. The point is that TFA did setup things.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 14, 2018 ---

Obi-Wan was a paragon character in ANH - but he kicked a lot of ass. First at Tatooine and then at the Death Star.
Gandalf kicks a lot of ass in LOTR.

The point is that a paragon character doesn't have to be boring.

 

I wanted him to be wise. I wanted his departure not to be because he was pouting and ashamed but because he recognized after yet another Jedi Purge, that there was something wrong about the Jedi way and had begun to believe there was more than simply a binary choice of light and dark, and he went in search of answers to help the galaxy instead of leaving it to die while he waited to do the same. I'm frankly astonished that KK would green light such a character turn, it was entirely necessary (to bring in new fans) and alienates long standing fans who identify with Luke as someone who learns to resist everything that he was portrayed to be in TLJ (fearful, angry, and disillusioned). I would have preferred he wouldn't have done a 180 from the core of his being (believing in the good in people, believing in the Force, etc.) for the sake of generating short lived empathy for a murderous, tyrannical, galactic Fascist. And I don't think I'll ever truly understand why Rian Johnson chose to die on this hill.

A Luke Skywalker who left to find answers for the sake of the Rebellion/Resistance doesn't destroy what he was, and still allows you to add growth, because the Luke of ROTJ would probably never consider that the Jedi way could be a problem. Going to search for answers would also explain how he learned even more about the Force and would ultimately be ready to guide Rey into the use of the Force in new ways with a new code so she could stop being the recipient of Mary Sue accusations (if Luke taught her these techniques why are you complaining that she can do it)? You could also have Luke explain why the Force went dormant, why it awakened, and why as a result she was able to do (and will be able to do) feats that most Jedi take years of training to do.

But instead we got Rian's version, and I guess if you like it that's fine, but there (to my mind's eye) a much better way to handle nearly every one but especially Luke. If he was determined to kill Luke off, he could have physically challenged the character by giving him an ailment that was killing him so he couldn't actually physically confront Kylo giving him more of a reason to show up as a Force Projection (and better explaining why he expired after doing it)

 

Ok great, but explain to me then the reason RJ gives for Luke not having intervened, helped or even just cared for Leia and co after or during the events of TFA? How would you have started TLJ with that hanging over your head?

That is the issue RJ had. It wasn’t just: why was Luke on the Island? It was: why in the hell didn’t Luke help his sister and friends?

That is why the “disconnect from the Force” came into it. Now, I had a theory that Luke could’ve been force drained and this explained the above. But if that played out, or something like it, then we wouldn’t have got the amazing legendary Luke Force use at the end which essentially saves the galaxy again. And so, the starting point here, correctly, is why did Luke disconnect from the Force?

And the answer of course is what we see play out in TLJ. Seeing his and the Jedi flaw of hubris again wouldn’t be enough. Discovering he failed Kylo and that Snoke had twisted his mind wouldn’t be enough. Luke had to do something wrong to get to that point. That was the compromise. It’s what I spent 2 years talking about because it was so important. What would the compromise be to make Luke the character he needed to be now for the story to work and for the hero journey of Rey to be relevant?

What RJ gave us was a stroke of genius. It was a mere moment of humanity from Luke, a brief moment of fear - seeing everything that he loved going to hell and reacting in fear. But it was a moment that passed as quickly as it arrived - showing that Luke still had a mastery over the dark side and could reject it when most would succumb. But nevertheless he did accelerate the creation of Kylo Ren and this one big moment was what brought the other issues he had into clear focus. It also made sense in terms of Kylo’s turn as it showed how his turn was cemented by Snoke being proven right, in his mind, about what his family thought of him. Would it have been right for Ben to just attack Luke for no good reason one day? And there also needed to be something that enables Rey to sympathise with Ren and turn against Luke - for there to be any conflict in her own story. It’s all intertwined and shows storymaking mastery.

We can see how badly Luke took this failure when he talks about how he failed “Leia’s son”. He feels terrible. But we also see these issues being resolved in TLJ and Luke learning another lesson from his master as his master, Yoda, had learned from him in ROTJ. And then we get this amazing return of Luke. Saving the galaxy and restoring hope once more. I couldn’t have asked for more than that.

 

Yahoo! Movies Japan current user ratings
The Empire Strikes Back: 4.34
A New Hope: 4.31
Revenge of the Sith: 4.21
Return of the Jedi (Special Edition): 4.19
Rogue One: 4.19
The Force Awakens: 3.83
The Phantom Menace: 3.81
Attack of the Clones: 3.72
The Last Jedi: 3.71

 

The Japanese appear to have excellent taste when it comes to this movie, and Star Wars in general.

 

Searching for an answer to Jedi/Sith conflict/purges and a new understanding of the Force would be my foundation. And since I would be writing the story, and sky is the limit (a freedom also afforded to Rian) I could write a story where Luke goes to Ach-To to commune with the Force to find the answers and entered a meditative state, or even a Force-Purgatory (where he wasn't physically dead, but also not physically one with the Force) out of which he was unable to exit until Rey finds him, and based on her tremendous Force Potential, she is able to bring him out and bring him up to speed on everything that's happened. And the experience weakens him where he cannot physically confront Kylo setting up the Force Projection for later.

In my scenario you get Luke out of the picture with a plausible reason why he was out of the fray, without requiring a 180 pivot for his character. As I mentioned in the Finn thread, what I am always mindful of here is that: What we see is canon because it was filmed, not because it was inevitable. If we still want to go with the failure theme we can have Luke explain his new view on the Force and why the Jedi, Sith, and Ren ultimately fail (because of an archaic view of the Force) but that's optional.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree. At least in the PT they had guard rails within which they HAD to operate. For example, no matter what else they did with Anakin's character, he HAD to ultimately turn because it was known that he would be. There WERE no such constraints for Rian. Whatever corners Rian found himself in, he painted himself. Luke didn't HAVE to be compromised, Rian CHOSE to compromise him.

Let me tell it, what RJ gave us was a stroke of arrogance. Subverting one of the most firmly established characters within Star Wars for what? For a human moment? There is wide spectrum of human moments; was brokeness the only one that Rian was capable of conveying? Why not have Leia turn to the Dark Side while we're at it - that would be completely out of character as well, would subvert foundational aspects of the franchise, and could be justified as a vehicle for showing a human moment as well. If that wouldn't make sense to you, you have some sense why Rian's approach to Luke made no sense to me. It was a choice, not inevitable.

Have to disagree with this in reference to Rey. For one, there would be no need for Rey to sympathize with Kylo in my scenario, nor do I believe that she even needed to sympathize with Ren in Rian's work for their to be conflict. There was plenty of conflict associated with her past that she could have examined through the Force that didn't require any interaction Kylo. The forced connection between Kylo and Rey was a choice, not inevitable.

I'm honestly not sure how Luke distracting the FO momentarily has been turned into Luke saving the galaxy, but I'll agree that's what Rian implies (without even hinting at how Broom Boy and his counterparts find out about the stand on Crait, from their stables on Canto Bight.) I don't begrudge you if you enjoyed this movie, I envy you. I wish I could walked away from the theater feeling that way.

 

Makes sense to me lol